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Question: Are you willing to provide identification documents to us?  (Voting closed: February 18, 2012, 06:35:33 AM)
I'm willing to provide my identification to Bitcoinica. - 60 (42.3%)
I'm willing to provide to other Bitcoin businesses, but not Bitcoinica. - 8 (5.6%)
I'm not willing to provide my identification to any Bitcoin business. - 74 (52.1%)
Total Voters: 141

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Author Topic: What if Bitcoinica requires identification for all customers?  (Read 6361 times)
zhoutong
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February 17, 2012, 06:35:33 AM
 #1

This is a simple customer survey. We have a deadline of imposing KYC procedures, and basically we have to do that in order to be fulfill the compliance requirements as a legal financial services provider.

Before you vote, we want to assure you that:

- We will be fully legal as a financial services provider.

- We will have the legal right (and also the obligation) to collect your identifications.

- We will require a scanned copy of Photo ID and proof of residential address.

- We will store all identification in a secure place, and we will never give out to anyone without a court order.

- We will have a detailed Terms of Service and Privacy Policy before identification becomes an absolute requirement.

If you have any ideas, please voice out too.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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February 17, 2012, 08:47:30 AM
 #2

It would all depend on what Legislative jurisdiction you operate from and the implications that would hold in store for me.

To be honest tho, I prefer to remain anonymous.
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February 17, 2012, 08:57:50 AM
 #3

If you do all that I bet you'll get the "paraipan seal of approval"  Roll Eyes

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February 17, 2012, 10:07:28 AM
 #4

What about for business accounts?

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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February 17, 2012, 10:39:43 AM
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What's the deadline?
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February 17, 2012, 10:49:20 AM
 #6

Why are so many people voting the last option? Do you honestly think Bitcoin has any way of succeeding without required identification at the major trading and exchange sites? Of course I would prefer no requirements of identification at all, but it's just not realistic in the long run. What should be discussed is the actual terms we will have to agree/disagree with. As long as we don't have to agree to outrageous terms, it's going to be a step forward for the long run.

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February 17, 2012, 11:04:36 AM
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Why are so many people voting the last option? Do you honestly think Bitcoin has any way of succeeding without required identification at the major trading and exchange sites? Of course I would prefer no requirements of identification at all, but it's just not realistic in the long run. What should be discussed is the actual terms we will have to agree/disagree with. As long as we don't have to agree to outrageous terms, it's going to be a step forward for the long run.

If you make your transactions immediately traceable to you by governments and agencies, you are negating one of the major points of bitcoin.

It looks to me like they are doing just fine without requiring it, not sure what they want to add to it now, or maybe is it what they want to prevent.

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February 17, 2012, 11:09:09 AM
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OK I understand you want to go "legal." But why in the US?
Weren't you located in Singapore?
If not, why not register in Belize or some other financial haven?
you don't even need to travel there for that.
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February 17, 2012, 11:35:27 AM
 #9

Accept IDs that meet minimal requirements.  Be as lenient as possible for your customers' (and Bitcoin's) sake.

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February 17, 2012, 11:38:11 AM
 #10

I don't know about you but I've always thought that exchanges will be the way authorities can have some control over Bitcoin. It's crucial for its long term survival. So far only Mt. Gox has been serious about this and has been targeted but other exchanges will follow eventually.

This doesn't kill Bitcoin's anonymity, no one forces you to acquire bitcoins from a major exchange. There are already a number of ways you can buy bitcoins from people directly. As more and more exchanges add these requirements, it's likely that alternative ways of acquiring bitcoins become more commonplace.

From my perspective all of this is very good development and it reduces fears that Bitcoin might some day be announced illegal. If that happened, all exchanging would be person to person and that is where any larger potential Bitcoin has, dies.

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February 17, 2012, 11:45:58 AM
 #11

Accept IDs that meet minimal requirements.  Be as lenient as possible for your customers' (and Bitcoin's) sake.

After these ID requirements are implemented, it is only a matter of time before they start sending 1099s to the IRS.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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February 17, 2012, 11:48:16 AM
 #12

I don't know about you but I've always thought that exchanges will be the way authorities can have some control over Bitcoin. It's crucial for its long term survival. So far only Mt. Gox has been serious about this and has been targeted but other exchanges will follow eventually.

This doesn't kill Bitcoin's anonymity, no one forces you to acquire bitcoins from a major exchange. There are already a number of ways you can buy bitcoins from people directly. As more and more exchanges add these requirements, it's likely that alternative ways of acquiring bitcoins become more commonplace.

From my perspective all of this is very good development and it reduces fears that Bitcoin might some day be announced illegal. If that happened, all exchanging would be person to person and that is where any larger potential Bitcoin has, dies.

I mostly agree with this -- the main problem I see is something like this:  Right now, as is, Bitcoin is offering extremely impoverished, yet smart people (like myself) to financially turn their lives around and get a fresh start.  If I had to start paying taxes on my earnings, boom it's game over and I'm back to being impoverished and underpaid (unless I want to partake in the then illegal trading markets which will no doubt spring up), but I don't want to -- this is why I still do not deal drugs or anything like that.

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February 17, 2012, 12:59:23 PM
 #13

Tbh, if this happens I see myself or somebody else creating a new one without these requirements.

A big number of users won't accept this change easily.

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February 17, 2012, 01:04:17 PM
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I don't know about you but I've always thought that exchanges will be the way authorities can have some control over Bitcoin. It's crucial for its long term survival. So far only Mt. Gox has been serious about this and has been targeted but other exchanges will follow eventually.

This doesn't kill Bitcoin's anonymity, no one forces you to acquire bitcoins from a major exchange. There are already a number of ways you can buy bitcoins from people directly. As more and more exchanges add these requirements, it's likely that alternative ways of acquiring bitcoins become more commonplace.

From my perspective all of this is very good development and it reduces fears that Bitcoin might some day be announced illegal. If that happened, all exchanging would be person to person and that is where any larger potential Bitcoin has, dies.

I mostly agree with this -- the main problem I see is something like this:  Right now, as is, Bitcoin is offering extremely impoverished, yet smart people (like myself) to financially turn their lives around and get a fresh start.  If I had to start paying taxes on my earnings, boom it's game over and I'm back to being impoverished and underpaid (unless I want to partake in the then illegal trading markets which will no doubt spring up), but I don't want to -- this is why I still do not deal drugs or anything like that.
you know if you're poor and smart, you shouldn't actually have to pay taxes, in fact, you should get EIC and the people who do pay taxes pay you.

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February 17, 2012, 01:07:01 PM
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I don't know about you but I've always thought that exchanges will be the way authorities can have some control over Bitcoin. It's crucial for its long term survival. So far only Mt. Gox has been serious about this and has been targeted but other exchanges will follow eventually.

This doesn't kill Bitcoin's anonymity, no one forces you to acquire bitcoins from a major exchange. There are already a number of ways you can buy bitcoins from people directly. As more and more exchanges add these requirements, it's likely that alternative ways of acquiring bitcoins become more commonplace.

From my perspective all of this is very good development and it reduces fears that Bitcoin might some day be announced illegal. If that happened, all exchanging would be person to person and that is where any larger potential Bitcoin has, dies.

I mostly agree with this -- the main problem I see is something like this:  Right now, as is, Bitcoin is offering extremely impoverished, yet smart people (like myself) to financially turn their lives around and get a fresh start.  If I had to start paying taxes on my earnings, boom it's game over and I'm back to being impoverished and underpaid (unless I want to partake in the then illegal trading markets which will no doubt spring up), but I don't want to -- this is why I still do not deal drugs or anything like that.
you know if you're poor and smart, you shouldn't actually have to pay taxes, in fact, you should get EIC and the people who do pay taxes pay you.

no EIC if you have no EI
I sure as heck took advantage of that refundable american opportunity credit though ;-)
edit:  lol and promptly spent it on bitcoins

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February 17, 2012, 02:43:35 PM
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I don't know about you but I've always thought that exchanges will be the way authorities can have some control over Bitcoin. It's crucial for its long term survival. So far only Mt. Gox has been serious about this and has been targeted but other exchanges will follow eventually.

This doesn't kill Bitcoin's anonymity, no one forces you to acquire bitcoins from a major exchange. There are already a number of ways you can buy bitcoins from people directly. As more and more exchanges add these requirements, it's likely that alternative ways of acquiring bitcoins become more commonplace.

From my perspective all of this is very good development and it reduces fears that Bitcoin might some day be announced illegal. If that happened, all exchanging would be person to person and that is where any larger potential Bitcoin has, dies.

This is exactly right. Bitcoinica is a place where you can use bitcoin to trade on leverage, and if it requires ID then so be it - you have the choice whether to indulge or not.

I see this as analogous to cash. If you want to open a broker account, or do forex trading etc then you are likely going to have to identify yourself to the brokerage. If you just want to hoard, spend and remain anonymous then you can use good old cash.

The benefit over cash is that you have X number of other ways of moving huge amounts of bitcoin around internationally and virtually anonymously. Whereas if you try an take a suitcase full of dollars out of the country you can bet seem questions are gonna be asked!

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February 17, 2012, 02:45:18 PM
 #17

Zhoutong, when you are fully compliant don't forget to embed the Paraipan Seal of Approval on Bitcoinica.



Your user base will skyrocket for sure.

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February 17, 2012, 03:05:07 PM
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Tbh, if this happens I see myself or somebody else creating a new one without these requirements.

A big number of users won't accept this change easily.

You can't be serious. Without complying with the legal requirements, no matter how outrageous they seem, the exchange can and will be declared illegal. I think it will be a good thing for exchanges to comply so that in the long run bitcoin is traded widely.

About the anonymity, bitcoin can be made anonymous as long as you remain within the bitcoin domain. As soon as you cross over from bitcoin to USD (or for that matter any other currency) electronically, you will leave an electronic trail that can be easily tracked. Does not matter how much anonymity you think you have got online?
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February 17, 2012, 03:11:29 PM
 #19

New section on Bitcoinica for proceeding with verifications, showed up few moments ago:

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February 17, 2012, 03:13:34 PM
 #20

Tbh, if this happens I see myself or somebody else creating a new one without these requirements.

A big number of users won't accept this change easily.

You can't be serious. Without complying with the legal requirements, no matter how outrageous they seem, the exchange can and will be declared illegal. I think it will be a good thing for exchanges to comply so that in the long run bitcoin is traded widely.

About the anonymity, bitcoin can be made anonymous as long as you remain within the bitcoin domain. As soon as you cross over from bitcoin to USD (or for that matter any other currency) electronically, you will leave an electronic trail that can be easily tracked. Does not matter how much anonymity you think you have got online?

Yep, this is why you don't create an exchange yourself. You operate in bitcoins and bitcoins only, and since bitcoins are not legally money, you have zero regulations to respond to. You only need bitcoins and proofs of transaction (be it mtgox codes or intersango PoT just to mention the 2 biggest exchanges). They deal with the legal part, that's why they are exchanges.

If you want bitcoinica to be also an exchange, that's when the big can of worms is opened. I may want to use this service with bitcoins that come, for instance, from mining. Or direct sales in bitcoins. There is no need to be passing my personal information around. It's a negative trade-off IMO, which is just what I'm stating here.

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