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Question: Are you willing to provide identification documents to us?  (Voting closed: February 18, 2012, 06:35:33 AM)
I'm willing to provide my identification to Bitcoinica. - 60 (42.3%)
I'm willing to provide to other Bitcoin businesses, but not Bitcoinica. - 8 (5.6%)
I'm not willing to provide my identification to any Bitcoin business. - 74 (52.1%)
Total Voters: 141

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Author Topic: What if Bitcoinica requires identification for all customers?  (Read 6366 times)
Qoheleth
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February 18, 2012, 05:06:54 AM
 #41

i'll play either way. Besides it is useful as an underground currency as it is, even if it wasnt designed as such(though they are working on some issues that make it more underground friendly). Still the community needs to decide which direction they want to go, head in the underground way, keep anonymity but be doomed to it staying nitchy or if it gets large be prepared to be under attack, or do we want to head the legit route and be prepared to give up some things like anonymity on the exchanges.
The funny thing is that if you trade goods and services for your coins instead of going through the exchanges, it's still anonymous and there's really no way to effectively regulate it. Giving up exchange anonymity really doesn't give any more information than governments could already get, and doesn't give up one whit of information about your use of coins that you never had stashed away at Gox Mountain.

So again, I'd go a step beyond saying it's a necessary sacrifice, and describe it as more of a necessary inconvenience. That which was really anonymous yesterday will also be anonymous tomorrow.

If there is something that will make Bitcoin succeed, it is growth of utility - greater quantity and variety of goods and services offered for BTC. If there is something that will make Bitcoin fail, it is the culture of naive fools and conmen, the former convinced that BTC is a magic box that will turn them into millionaires, and the latter arriving by the busload to devour them.
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February 18, 2012, 11:45:10 AM
 #42

i'll play either way. Besides it is useful as an underground currency as it is, even if it wasnt designed as such(though they are working on some issues that make it more underground friendly). Still the community needs to decide which direction they want to go, head in the underground way, keep anonymity but be doomed to it staying nitchy or if it gets large be prepared to be under attack, or do we want to head the legit route and be prepared to give up some things like anonymity on the exchanges.
The funny thing is that if you trade goods and services for your coins instead of going through the exchanges, it's still anonymous and there's really no way to effectively regulate it. Giving up exchange anonymity really doesn't give any more information than governments could already get, and doesn't give up one whit of information about your use of coins that you never had stashed away at Gox Mountain.

So again, I'd go a step beyond saying it's a necessary sacrifice, and describe it as more of a necessary inconvenience. That which was really anonymous yesterday will also be anonymous tomorrow.

good point

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February 18, 2012, 12:26:05 PM
 #43


So again, I'd go a step beyond saying it's a necessary sacrifice, and describe it as more of a necessary inconvenience. That which was really anonymous yesterday will also be anonymous tomorrow.

So for Bitcoin offshore is going to be Tor Hidden Service.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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February 19, 2012, 09:16:45 AM
 #44

I dont' care, i never used bitcoinica.
Leverage is bad!

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February 19, 2012, 03:09:24 PM
 #45

Z how i disable this crap ?
Quote
Your account is unverified. Please verify your account to enable unlimited instant withdrawals and prevent other service restricitions in the future.

+1

Zhoutong, this is not "gentle pressure" to make people verify their accounts. This is obnoxious pressure that leads to customer insatisfaction.

"Please verify your account to enable unlimited instant withdrawals" would still be okay. But the threat of other service restrictions without specifying what or when makes me worry about having any money in bitcoinica.

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February 19, 2012, 03:19:27 PM
 #46

Don't worry guys. You won't suddenly lose your money nor will your money suddenly get stuck. They will announce a deadline later on for people who don't want to comply. They get withdraw their funds as usual. Here's a quote from Zhoutong which stated this:





when will we know the solution?

Soon. We have hired a few legal and financial professionals to work on corporate structure. We already got the licenses so we have started collecting identifications.

Is there any deadline for customer verification at this point (from the customer's POV)?  What features are expanded and/or enabled upon verification?  I.e. what can't I do now that I will be able to do after verification?

Thanks!

Currently there's no deadline. Our company is in the transitioning period and we have to "try our best" to collect IDs. You will enjoy unlimited instant withdrawals (including Mt. Gox and Bitcoin) if you verify now. Otherwise, the same approval process will apply.

We will roll out a series of incentives for verified customers. And after we announce the deadline, unverified customers will have to withdraw all their funds and close their accounts before that date.

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February 19, 2012, 03:20:39 PM
 #47

I'm glad this is happening; leverage has done a great deal of damage to our community and the markets, and this AML move will make some people think twice about playing with leverage Smiley

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February 19, 2012, 03:28:33 PM
 #48

I'm glad this is happening; leverage has done a great deal of damage to our community and the markets, and this AML move will make some people think twice about playing with leverage Smiley

Not going to stop me from using leverage Wink

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February 19, 2012, 03:44:24 PM
 #49

Don't worry guys. You won't suddenly lose your money nor will your money suddenly get stuck. They will announce a deadline later on for people who don't want to comply. They get withdraw their funds as usual. Here's a quote from Zhoutong which stated this:





when will we know the solution?

Soon. We have hired a few legal and financial professionals to work on corporate structure. We already got the licenses so we have started collecting identifications.

Is there any deadline for customer verification at this point (from the customer's POV)?  What features are expanded and/or enabled upon verification?  I.e. what can't I do now that I will be able to do after verification?

Thanks!

Currently there's no deadline. Our company is in the transitioning period and we have to "try our best" to collect IDs. You will enjoy unlimited instant withdrawals (including Mt. Gox and Bitcoin) if you verify now. Otherwise, the same approval process will apply.

We will roll out a series of incentives for verified customers. And after we announce the deadline, unverified customers will have to withdraw all their funds and close their accounts before that date.

Wut? don't worry? so basically he just confirmed that ALL accounts will need to be verified or else they will have to withdraw everything.

Uh oh. I hope next time such a decision is taken he emails me, namely, this deadline.

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February 19, 2012, 04:16:31 PM
 #50

signature changed because you at the end you will force users to send ID's

We won't freeze accounts. Everyone will be able to withdraw regardless of verification status. You're safe to continue trading until we announce further details.

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February 19, 2012, 04:50:16 PM
 #51

signature changed because you at the end you will force users to send ID's

We won't freeze accounts. Everyone will be able to withdraw regardless of verification status. You're safe to continue trading until we announce further details.
yes you will the process will be like this :
account freezed
give ID to unlock
if you dont give ID take ur moneys and gtfo

Why so negative? He just denied what you said. You're just spreading FUD...

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February 19, 2012, 05:07:43 PM
 #52

signature changed because you at the end you will force users to send ID's

We won't freeze accounts. Everyone will be able to withdraw regardless of verification status. You're safe to continue trading until we announce further details.
yes you will the process will be like this :
account freezed
give ID to unlock
if you dont give ID take ur moneys and gtfo

Why so negative? He just denied what you said. You're just spreading FUD...

The FUD here was introduced by bitcoinica when they started displaying an open threat.

"Myself" didn't say anything wrong, unless you equate "freezing your account" to keeping your money. I don't think bitcoinica will do that, but still, they will stop all your trading, which is "freezing" enough for me. Basically, they unilaterally change the ToS drastically and with very short notice. I think some complaining is warranted.

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February 19, 2012, 06:03:53 PM
 #53

signature changed because you at the end you will force users to send ID's

We won't freeze accounts. Everyone will be able to withdraw regardless of verification status. You're safe to continue trading until we announce further details.
yes you will the process will be like this :
account freezed
give ID to unlock
if you dont give ID take ur moneys and gtfo

Why so negative? He just denied what you said. You're just spreading FUD...

The FUD here was introduced by bitcoinica when they started displaying an open threat.

"Myself" didn't say anything wrong, unless you equate "freezing your account" to keeping your money. I don't think bitcoinica will do that, but still, they will stop all your trading, which is "freezing" enough for me. Basically, they unilaterally change the ToS drastically and with very short notice. I think some complaining is warranted.


Short notice? The deadline hasn't even been set. For all we know it might not take effect for months to come, although I agree it will probably sooner than later. Still, we can't make a judgment before that is known, however. Besides, their choice is to become regulated up to a certain degree, which in turn requires them to require identification from their customers. You can't deny them that choice. All you can do is not do business with them anymore by withdrawing your money, which is exactly what is going to be possible.

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February 19, 2012, 06:53:19 PM
 #54

what if you are forced to close position because of dead line, you van go long from 2USD/btc and if the price is 10USD/btc when the deadline hits u will suffer a lose if after a week the price go up to 11USD/btc
so if you think wont affect ppl you are wrong

Hmmm good point. Not sure how there's any other way they can do this, though. Not saying it's a good thing, just saying there might be no other way to do this. Hopefully Zhoutong can shed some light on how they are going to handle the cases in which people still have open positions they don't want to close yet, but who don't want to send identification either.

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February 19, 2012, 08:08:54 PM
 #55

Mushoz: if you deem it acceptable that they change their ToS, and they declare to change them even further (no deadlines, no indications yet) as long as they don't steal your money, then you have very very low expectations as a customer. "You are free to just not use the service" yeah, I take all the time wasted in it with me though. I'm on my second account now, expecting to take all my coins off it soon in light of the changes.

I guess you are a very good consumer for whatever services you have contracted, just happy to have ANY ToS change as long as they don't steal money from you directly. You can always stop using the service, huh?

http://youtu.be/qd8hy032uLc

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February 19, 2012, 08:20:33 PM
 #56

Mushoz: if you deem it acceptable that they change their ToS, and they declare to change them even further (no deadlines, no indications yet) as long as they don't steal your money, then you have very very low expectations as a customer. "You are free to just not use the service" yeah, I take all the time wasted in it with me though. I'm on my second account now, expecting to take all my coins off it soon in light of the changes.

I guess you are a very good consumer for whatever services you have contracted, just happy to have ANY ToS change as long as they don't steal money from you directly. You can always stop using the service, huh?

http://youtu.be/qd8hy032uLc

I can't force a company to go a certain way I want the company to go. If a change in their ToS doesn't negatively affect me beyond me not willing to use their service anymore, I can live with that. Then they've just lost a customer, and I'll go looking for a company does offer what I want. You have to remember I don't _want_ them to change the ToS to one I don't like, but I can't _demand_ them not to. All I can do is take my business elsewhere.

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February 19, 2012, 08:29:03 PM
 #57

Mushoz: if you deem it acceptable that they change their ToS, and they declare to change them even further (no deadlines, no indications yet) as long as they don't steal your money, then you have very very low expectations as a customer. "You are free to just not use the service" yeah, I take all the time wasted in it with me though. I'm on my second account now, expecting to take all my coins off it soon in light of the changes.

I guess you are a very good consumer for whatever services you have contracted, just happy to have ANY ToS change as long as they don't steal money from you directly. You can always stop using the service, huh?

http://youtu.be/qd8hy032uLc

I can't force a company to go a certain way I want the company to go. If a change in their ToS doesn't negatively affect me beyond me not willing to use their service anymore, I can live with that. Then they've just lost a customer, and I'll go looking for a company does offer what I want. You have to remember I don't _want_ them to change the ToS to one I don't like, but I can't _demand_ them not to. All I can do is take my business elsewhere.

+1.  And as far as what will be done with open positions that "people want to keep open, but don't want to also be verified" (Huh??)... You can't have your cake and eat it too.  I would imagine such positions would be immediately liquidated, and whatever remaining margin balances be refunded back to the account of origin.  Is it really more complex than this?

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February 19, 2012, 08:31:53 PM
 #58

Also, I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but what is the impetus behind this new verification requirement?  I assume that the government where Bitcoinica operates requires it, but I wonder if THAT had anything to do with that asshole that was posting screenies of his massive unrealized profit a few weeks ago?  Everybody remember that, yeah?  That guy was a dick and deserved what he got, and it was NOT bitcoinica's fault -- it was his own dumbass dipshit lack of responsibility with his own fucking funds and impulses.

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February 19, 2012, 08:38:00 PM
 #59

Also, I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but what is the impetus behind this new verification requirement?  I assume that the government where Bitcoinica operates requires it, but I wonder if THAT had anything to do with that asshole that was posting screenies of his massive unrealized profit a few weeks ago?  Everybody remember that, yeah?  That guy was a dick and deserved what he got, and it was NOT bitcoinica's fault -- it was his own dumbass dipshit lack of responsibility with his own fucking funds and impulses.

Zhoutong mentioned financial and strategic moves as motivators for this change. He wouldn't disclose exactly what he meant, only that we will learn in a few weeks time.

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February 19, 2012, 08:52:23 PM
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Mushoz: if you deem it acceptable that they change their ToS, and they declare to change them even further (no deadlines, no indications yet) as long as they don't steal your money, then you have very very low expectations as a customer. "You are free to just not use the service" yeah, I take all the time wasted in it with me though. I'm on my second account now, expecting to take all my coins off it soon in light of the changes.

I guess you are a very good consumer for whatever services you have contracted, just happy to have ANY ToS change as long as they don't steal money from you directly. You can always stop using the service, huh?

http://youtu.be/qd8hy032uLc

I can't force a company to go a certain way I want the company to go. If a change in their ToS doesn't negatively affect me beyond me not willing to use their service anymore, I can live with that. Then they've just lost a customer, and I'll go looking for a company does offer what I want. You have to remember I don't _want_ them to change the ToS to one I don't like, but I can't _demand_ them not to. All I can do is take my business elsewhere.

Sure, sure. But I don't have to like it and I can also post here that this will drive me off bitcoinica as a customer. Zhoutong will have to ponder if it's worth it for him or not, it's a trade-off like any other. In this trade-off list he'll have to add the risk of a knock-off coming out without these restrictions. So far there is no incentive for it. There will be and we will be able to estimate more or less how many users one would be instantly be able to steal from bitcoinica just on these grounds.

I wish him luck and I suspect he'll make more money by going into a full-fledged, official financial services provider. If things work for him, of course.

You're reading too much into my posts if you think I'm demanding anything. I'm expressing that I wish he didn't do it, and if he does it then I will be off bitcoinica (I try to give my personal information away the least I possibly can - to justify it I'd have to expect massive gains, and I don't see them happening in bitcoinica with the risks I'm willing to take at this moment).

Zhoutong reads this forum and I guess he prefers to know as accurately as possible how many of us will leave his service when he does this, instead of parroting good wishes and then f**** off with our money when the moment arrives.

In my case this is not about being positive or negative. It's about being realistic. I wish him luck, but when I think his service is not worth the risk for me (as in, my ID being stolen for instance) then I will take my coins and leave. As we say around here: "simples."

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