bitsquare.io - The P2P Fiat-Bitcoin Exchange

[k99]

I'm looking very forward to ongoing development of Bitsquare and have recently (well, late last year) brought it up in the BCN forum, at:

https://bytecointalk.org/showthread.php?tid=274

I'll be in touch via the github (will probably volunteer for testing which looks like it needs help?), translation, and mailing list.  Cheers!

Thanks.
I would love to support ByteCoin (and othere CryptoNote coins) but as the transaction cannot be verified by the arbitrator (in case of a dispute) on the blockchain (sender address is not visible) I cannot support it. I talked a bit to Monero guys and they told me it would be possibile but need some extra not yet implemented feature. I am not so familiar with ByteCoin but I think it will have the same issue as Monero.
So to summarize:
The requirement for adding CryptoNote coins is that a 3rd party (arbitrator in case of a dispute) is able to see on the blockchain if a transaction from the sender address to the receiver address has been done. 

[ABISprotocol]

I'm looking very forward to ongoing development of Bitsquare and have recently (well, late last year) brought it up in the BCN forum, at:

https://bytecointalk.org/showthread.php?tid=274

I'll be in touch via the github (will probably volunteer for testing which looks like it needs help?), translation, and mailing list.  Cheers!

Thanks.
I would love to support ByteCoin (and othere CryptoNote coins) but as the transaction cannot be verified by the arbitrator (in case of a dispute) on the blockchain (sender address is not visible) I cannot support it. I talked a bit to Monero guys and they told me it would be possibile but need some extra not yet implemented feature. I am not so familiar with ByteCoin but I think it will have the same issue as Monero.
So to summarize:
The requirement for adding CryptoNote coins is that a 3rd party (arbitrator in case of a dispute) is able to see on the blockchain if a transaction from the sender address to the receiver address has been done. 

Hmm, yes, ~ I'll bring that up with the devs to inquire if there's some creative way to address this.  What you describe is, actually, one of the good things about the coin, but it does present its challenges as well.  I'm guessing you've already seen this, but...
1) privacy model of BCN at https://bytecoin.org/cryptonote/
2) "no third party should be able to derive the address from the output key and vice versa." https://cryptonote.org/cns/cns006.txt
These issues aren't only bandied about in circles of people using the cryptonight algorithm, though... note that
3) schnorr ring sig merged in bitcoin https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/pull/212
4) reference to the above in libbitcoin https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin/issues/251
The implications of this are "Plausible deniability for multisig" and "Plausible deniability of authorized parties using a third-party organizer (which doesn't need to be trusted with private keys), [it's possible to prevent signers from knowing whether their private key is part of the set of signing keys]. As per Sections 5 and 6 at https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/34288/what-are-the-implications-of-schnorr-signatures 
I don't actually feel it is necessary for a third party to have to see on the blockchain if a transaction from the sender address to the receiver address has been done, independent of communication with the sender and receiver - so long as (in the event of a dispute) both parties (sender and receiver) agree on what the amount was that was supposed to be sent and received, and the sender can identify a transaction in the sender's BCN wallet that corresponds to the amount, then there will also be a transaction hash which will be visible from the sender's wallet that can be shown (or sent via bitmessage or e-mail) to the arbitrator.  It will have information which will include height, timestamp, difficulty, etc. associated with it when looking at the details of the txs in something like http://chainradar.com/bcn/blocks - Given this, it should be possible to check with the intended recipient if the recipient also has an amount which corresponds.  Obviously, in this process, the participants (sender, intended recipient) by participating in arbitration, give up some degree of privacy, but it's a tradeoff if they want to resolve something.

That said, I will inquire with the devs what is possible as to how to query the BCN's transaction and to what extent it is possible in the current model.

[k99]

Hmm, yes, ~ I'll bring that up with the devs to inquire if there's some creative way to address this.  What you describe is, actually, one of the good things about the coin, but it does present its challenges as well.  I'm guessing you've already seen this, but...
1) privacy model of BCN at https://bytecoin.org/cryptonote/
2) "no third party should be able to derive the address from the output key and vice versa." https://cryptonote.org/cns/cns006.txt
These issues aren't only bandied about in circles of people using the cryptonight algorithm, though... note that
3) schnorr ring sig merged in bitcoin https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/pull/212
4) reference to the above in libbitcoin https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin/issues/251
The implications of this are "Plausible deniability for multisig" and "Plausible deniability of authorized parties using a third-party organizer (which doesn't need to be trusted with private keys), [it's possible to prevent signers from knowing whether their private key is part of the set of signing keys]. As per Sections 5 and 6 at https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/34288/what-are-the-implications-of-schnorr-signatures  
I don't actually feel it is necessary for a third party to have to see on the blockchain if a transaction from the sender address to the receiver address has been done, independent of communication with the sender and receiver - so long as (in the event of a dispute) both parties (sender and receiver) agree on what the amount was that was supposed to be sent and received, and the sender can identify a transaction in the sender's BCN wallet that corresponds to the amount, then there will also be a transaction hash which will be visible from the sender's wallet that can be shown (or sent via bitmessage or e-mail) to the arbitrator.  It will have information which will include height, timestamp, difficulty, etc. associated with it when looking at the details of the txs in something like http://chainradar.com/bcn/blocks - Given this, it should be possible to check with the intended recipient if the recipient also has an amount which corresponds.  Obviously, in this process, the participants (sender, intended recipient) by participating in arbitration, give up some degree of privacy, but it's a tradeoff if they want to resolve something.

That said, I will inquire with the devs what is possible as to how to query the BCN's transaction and to what extent it is possible in the current model.

Your solution has the problem if the sender is a scammer and creates a second tx with the same amount to himself he can give that to the arbitrator.
The Monero guys told me that they could expose the r parameter (if I remember correctly) which would makes such an audit possible.
They also have those "view addresses" but I think that was also not sufficient for that use case.
The weakened privacy of such an auditable transaction is not too critical IMO as the users can do just a follow up tx and then are completely anonymous again with their coins.
An audit model where the privacy is weakened in the dispute process I also don't see as a big problem as the dispute is an expectional case and in case of altcoins any scam attempt is doomed to fail as the arbitrator can checkout on the blockchain so there will be zero incentive for scammers to even try it out to cheat.
The scammer would lose his security deposit (0.1 BTC) as fee payment to the arbitrator.
So the pure fact that the tx is auditable will be enough that it should not be needed to be executed.

[ABISprotocol]

Hmm, yes, ~ I'll bring that up with the devs to inquire if there's some creative way to address this.  What you describe is, actually, one of the good things about the coin, but it does present its challenges as well.  I'm guessing you've already seen this, but...
1) privacy model of BCN at https://bytecoin.org/cryptonote/
2) "no third party should be able to derive the address from the output key and vice versa." https://cryptonote.org/cns/cns006.txt
These issues aren't only bandied about in circles of people using the cryptonight algorithm, though... note that
3) schnorr ring sig merged in bitcoin https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/pull/212
4) reference to the above in libbitcoin https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin/issues/251
The implications of this are "Plausible deniability for multisig" and "Plausible deniability of authorized parties using a third-party organizer (which doesn't need to be trusted with private keys), [it's possible to prevent signers from knowing whether their private key is part of the set of signing keys]. As per Sections 5 and 6 at https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/34288/what-are-the-implications-of-schnorr-signatures  
I don't actually feel it is necessary for a third party to have to see on the blockchain if a transaction from the sender address to the receiver address has been done, independent of communication with the sender and receiver - so long as (in the event of a dispute) both parties (sender and receiver) agree on what the amount was that was supposed to be sent and received, and the sender can identify a transaction in the sender's BCN wallet that corresponds to the amount, then there will also be a transaction hash which will be visible from the sender's wallet that can be shown (or sent via bitmessage or e-mail) to the arbitrator.  It will have information which will include height, timestamp, difficulty, etc. associated with it when looking at the details of the txs in something like http://chainradar.com/bcn/blocks - Given this, it should be possible to check with the intended recipient if the recipient also has an amount which corresponds.  Obviously, in this process, the participants (sender, intended recipient) by participating in arbitration, give up some degree of privacy, but it's a tradeoff if they want to resolve something.

That said, I will inquire with the devs what is possible as to how to query the BCN's transaction and to what extent it is possible in the current model.

Your solution has the problem if the sender is a scammer and creates a second tx with the same amount to himself he can give that to the arbitrator.
The Monero guys told me that they could expose the r parameter (if I remember correctly) which would makes such an audit possible.
They also have those "view addresses" but I think that was also not sufficient for that use case.
The weakened privacy of such an auditable transaction is not too critical IMO as the users can do just a follow up tx and then are completely anonymous again with their coins.
An audit model where the privacy is weakened in the dispute process I also don't see as a big problem as the dispute is an expectional case and in case of altcoins any scam attempt is doomed to fail as the arbitrator can checkout on the blockchain so there will be zero incentive for scammers to even try it out to cheat.
The scammer would lose his security deposit (0.1 BTC) as fee payment to the arbitrator.
So the pure fact that the tx is auditable will be enough that it should not be needed to be executed.

Thanks, I see where you are going.  I don't know personally if what you are seeking is actually possible with BCN, it sounds like some development discussion would be needed.  In any event I'll be sure to add a link to this bitcointalk thread in my message to the main BCN devs.

[HostFat]

There is a new release out, enabled on Mainnet

https://github.com/bitsquare/bitsquare/releases

There also already some offers

[ABISprotocol]

There is a new release out, enabled on Mainnet

https://github.com/bitsquare/bitsquare/releases

There also already some offers

Thank you, I am broadcasting this to my social and other channels re. the new, just released pre-release candidate (v0.3.3) for the official Beta version and will be helping out ASAP with some development stuffs.

[k99]

There is a new release out, enabled on Mainnet

https://github.com/bitsquare/bitsquare/releases

There also already some offers

Thank you, I am broadcasting this to my social and other channels re. the new, just released pre-release candidate (v0.3.3) for the official Beta version and will be helping out ASAP with some development stuffs.

Thanks a lot to both of you!
I created quite a few offers. There are many altcoins supported, those might be even easier to test as no nasty bank transfer is needed.
I still have no good payment option for US. PerfectMoney can be used, but its somehow crappy... Does anyone has recommendations?
ACH and Wire are too unsafe / too expensive. Cash deposit seems to be ok but needs more investigation.

Here are some docs where I tried to gather information, but still not very complete:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iQHhtAOieu5i6_2rvkvtcLS70A991aZlxkJgzv97XuU/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xiOqcBSInIF7ozWdN3DvM5O-nyZ-397G9MR8LOXs6iA/

Here is a list of altcoins currently supported:
- Ethereum
- Litecoin
- Namecoin
- Dash
- Anoncoin
- NuBits
- NuShares
- FairCoin
- Peercoin
- Primecoin
- Dogecoin
- Nxt
- BitShares
- Counterparty
- Ripple

Stellar is in the current version but will be removed in the next release as it need an additional memo field which is missing atm.

I still did not had time to push Bitsquare to those altcoin communities, so if anyone has contacts there would be good to get in touch with them and get some support form them for testing/promoting Bitsquare.

[Financisto]

is strange to me such a great project to not have the attention from the community. Keep the great work guys!

After (almost) one year from that comment, I feel the same about this project.

This project is a huge step further and beyond LocalBitcoins.

I hope you guys launch another crowdfunding campaign with an efficient previous PR work this time.

Somehow more marketing and advertising is needed for this project.

Following to see good news about bitsquare this year.

I wish you guys all success!

[ABISprotocol]

There is a new release out, enabled on Mainnet

https://github.com/bitsquare/bitsquare/releases

There also already some offers

Thank you, I am broadcasting this to my social and other channels re. the new, just released pre-release candidate (v0.3.3) for the official Beta version and will be helping out ASAP with some development stuffs.

Thanks a lot to both of you!
I created quite a few offers. There are many altcoins supported, those might be even easier to test as no nasty bank transfer is needed.
I still have no good payment option for US. PerfectMoney can be used, but its somehow crappy... Does anyone has recommendations?
ACH and Wire are too unsafe / too expensive. Cash deposit seems to be ok but needs more investigation.

Here are some docs where I tried to gather information, but still not very complete:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iQHhtAOieu5i6_2rvkvtcLS70A991aZlxkJgzv97XuU/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xiOqcBSInIF7ozWdN3DvM5O-nyZ-397G9MR8LOXs6iA/

Here is a list of altcoins currently supported:
- Ethereum
- Litecoin
- Namecoin
- Dash
- Anoncoin
- NuBits
- NuShares
- FairCoin
- Peercoin
- Primecoin
- Dogecoin
- Nxt
- BitShares
- Counterparty
- Ripple

Stellar is in the current version but will be removed in the next release as it need an additional memo field which is missing atm.

I still did not had time to push Bitsquare to those altcoin communities, so if anyone has contacts there would be good to get in touch with them and get some support form them for testing/promoting Bitsquare.

You asked if anyone had recommendation for payment option for US. I do not recommend PerfectMoney or such options which rely on a third party.

However, as a decentralized currency exchange I think what would be consistent, is this:

https://gist.github.com/drwasho/aa6ab79e92f2a876073e

Specifically, see:  "Crypto-Fiat Currency Exchanges" which addresses this use case

https://gist.github.com/drwasho/aa6ab79e92f2a876073e#2-crypto-fiat-currency-exchanges

I believe this kind of thing will solve the problem but I also think that this sort of arrangement would need much more discussion, adaptation, etc. - I'll soon be on the mailing list for bitsquare and will bring up this and other issues there in more detail.

[k99]

is strange to me such a great project to not have the attention from the community. Keep the great work guys!

After (almost) one year from that comment, I feel the same about this project.

This project is a huge step further and beyond LocalBitcoins.

I hope you guys launch another crowdfunding campaign with an efficient previous PR work this time.

Somehow more marketing and advertising is needed for this project.

Following to see good news about bitsquare this year.

I wish you guys all success!

I don't plan another crowd funding campaign. The marketing effort was just too much in relation to what you can get.
The best what people can help now is to use it. Alpha testing on Mainnet is open and hopefully soon there will be the Beta version out.
Of course spreading the word would be a great help as well as I should use my resources for development.

[k99]

You asked if anyone had recommendation for payment option for US. I do not recommend PerfectMoney or such options which rely on a third party.

However, as a decentralized currency exchange I think what would be consistent, is this:

https://gist.github.com/drwasho/aa6ab79e92f2a876073e

Specifically, see:  "Crypto-Fiat Currency Exchanges" which addresses this use case

https://gist.github.com/drwasho/aa6ab79e92f2a876073e#2-crypto-fiat-currency-exchanges

I believe this kind of thing will solve the problem but I also think that this sort of arrangement would need much more discussion, adaptation, etc. - I'll soon be on the mailing list for bitsquare and will bring up this and other issues there in more detail.

A currency trade via OpenBazaar is basically the same as via Bitsquare, so I don't see how that solves anything.
Excluding Banks would be great but beside face-to-face trading and cash deposit there is not alternatives so far I see.

[ABISprotocol]

You asked if anyone had recommendation for payment option for US. I do not recommend PerfectMoney or such options which rely on a third party.

However, as a decentralized currency exchange I think what would be consistent, is this:

https://gist.github.com/drwasho/aa6ab79e92f2a876073e

Specifically, see:  "Crypto-Fiat Currency Exchanges" which addresses this use case

https://gist.github.com/drwasho/aa6ab79e92f2a876073e#2-crypto-fiat-currency-exchanges

I believe this kind of thing will solve the problem but I also think that this sort of arrangement would need much more discussion, adaptation, etc. - I'll soon be on the mailing list for bitsquare and will bring up this and other issues there in more detail.

A currency trade via OpenBazaar is basically the same as via Bitsquare, so I don't see how that solves anything.
Excluding Banks would be great but beside face-to-face trading and cash deposit there is not alternatives so far I see.

Indeed, Bitsquare was quoted in the document:

https://gist.github.com/drwasho/aa6ab79e92f2a876073e#1-dht-listing

I do believe there is a viable way for this to occur without involvement of banks, and without face to face trading.  I will float some ideas on the development list after considering them more.

[ABISprotocol]

You asked if anyone had recommendation for payment option for US. I do not recommend PerfectMoney or such options which rely on a third party.

However, as a decentralized currency exchange I think what would be consistent, is this:

https://gist.github.com/drwasho/aa6ab79e92f2a876073e

Specifically, see:  "Crypto-Fiat Currency Exchanges" which addresses this use case

https://gist.github.com/drwasho/aa6ab79e92f2a876073e#2-crypto-fiat-currency-exchanges

I believe this kind of thing will solve the problem but I also think that this sort of arrangement would need much more discussion, adaptation, etc. - I'll soon be on the mailing list for bitsquare and will bring up this and other issues there in more detail.

A currency trade via OpenBazaar is basically the same as via Bitsquare, so I don't see how that solves anything.
Excluding Banks would be great but beside face-to-face trading and cash deposit there is not alternatives so far I see.

I've been busy since the end of January, but part of what I've been thinking about is what I feel might be a novel way to address this problem without face to face trading, without necessarily requiring cash deposit, and without involving third party services such as shapeshift.io or PerfectMoney (and of course, without banks).  As I've thought of this, I'm keenly aware of the importance of some of bitsquares principles, e.g. that it is built for those who "do not want to forfeit control or privacy to a central authority in order to trade with other individuals & regard financial transactions as a form of private speech that should be protected from surveillance by banks, governments, and other institutions."

Anyway, I will soon jump on the mailing list for bitsquare to float a couple ideas that I have been mulling privately.

[k99]

I've been busy since the end of January, but part of what I've been thinking about is what I feel might be a novel way to address this problem without face to face trading, without necessarily requiring cash deposit, and without involving third party services such as shapeshift.io or PerfectMoney (and of course, without banks).  As I've thought of this, I'm keenly aware of the importance of some of bitsquares principles, e.g. that it is built for those who "do not want to forfeit control or privacy to a central authority in order to trade with other individuals & regard financial transactions as a form of private speech that should be protected from surveillance by banks, governments, and other institutions."

Anyway, I will soon jump on the mailing list for bitsquare to float a couple ideas that I have been mulling privately.

Looking forward to hear about your ideas!

[HostFat]

https://github.com/bitsquare/bitsquare/releases/tag/v0.3.5

[k99]

https://github.com/bitsquare/bitsquare/releases/tag/v0.3.5

Thanks HostFat for posting!

That release comes with a lot of features and improvements.
It will be probably the last "feature release" before Beta.

Now its time for battle testing the app. We need your help for testing and feedback!

The trade limits are already less tight and are now dependent on the payment method:
Bank transfers: 0.1 BTC (low chargeback risk) 
OKPay/PerfectMoney/Swish/AliPay: 0.2 BTC  (very low chargeback risk) 
Altcoins: 0.3 BTC (no chargeback risk) 

Once it is sufficiently tested we will rise those limits probably to:
Bank transfers: 1 BTC
OKPay/PerfectMoney/Swish/AliPay: 1-3 BTC
Altcoins: 5-10 BTC

The current limits even if they are low are now already useful for real trading at least with altcoins. There are a bunch of offers set up already, just browse the offerbook or create your own offer.

If you don't have a matching payment account just sign up for OKPay, you can create an anonymous account in a few minutes and as long as you don't need to transfer the Fiat money out of OKPay (e.g. using it for chains of trades in both directions) you don't need to do KYC/AML verification. And OKPay transactions are instant and they claim to do no chargeback, so it is the best payment option for Fiat.
They charge 1% fee, but consider that price volatility in crypto exchange has much more influence than fees!
Due the privacy protection in Bitsquare you can expect better prices than in other exchanges, so the fees will become even more irrelevant.

Please help us spread the word and use it for trading now. Bitsquare is a community project not a VC based startup - it can only succeed with support form the community!


**Release notes:**
* New payment methods: National bank transfer, Transfer with same bank, Transfer with specific bank
* Support 75 global currencies and 18 alternative crypto currencies
* Price feed for all major currencies and all alternative crypto currencies
* Make list of displayed currencies customizable
* Separate crypto currencies accounts
* Increase trade limits to 0.1-0.3 BTC
* Make trade limit depend on payment method
* Check transaction fee for funding transactions
* Use specific colors for buy and sell
* P2P network optimizations (refresh offers)
* Reconnect and republish offers after inactivity (detect standby/sleep mode)
* Display detailed info for P2P connections
* Display inboud and outbound traffic
* Measure round trip time
* Throttle max. traffic
* Add “Show all currencies” option to the offer book
* Make market price invertable
* Notifications and advanced popup handling

[HostFat]

https://github.com/bitsquare/bitsquare/releases/tag/v0.3.6

Code:

This is a pre-release candidate for the official Beta version.

This version is backward compatible to version 0.3.5, so you DON'T need to clean your data directory.

Release notes:

Increase trade limits (Banks: 0.3 BTC, Payment processors: 0.4 BTC, Altcoins: 0.5 BTC)
Reduce min. required mining fee for funding tx to 0.0001 BTC
Reduce create offer fee to 0.0005 BTC
Added FairCoin
Added ShadowCash
Display onion address of offerer and trading peer in details windows
Show Identicon for offerers or trading peers onion address and indicate repeated trades
Show QR Code at funding screens, Remove QR Code Icon from AddressTextField, Add CopyIcon to Create Offer funding screen
Don't show own offers in offer book, make it adjustable in settings
Display additional info for Altcoins at buy/sell buttons
Show payment in market overview offer book tables
Show update notification if client version is older than new version
Increase timeout for trade process forn 30 sec to 60 sec.
Add build instructions for OpenJDK/OpenJFX
Resend confirmation at startup if peer has not continued trade process
Add check if unlimited Strength for cryptographic keys is enabled in case the user has compiled the binary on his own
If you have used a version of Bitsquare older than 0.3.5 you need to remove the old application data directory to avoid conflicts due non compatible changes. If you have funds in your wallet be sure to withdraw first your funds before installing the new version.
Location of the data directory:
Mac OSX: /Users/username/Library/Application Support/Bitsquare
Linux: /home/username/.local/share/Bitsquare
Windows XP: C:\Documents and Settings\username\Application Data\Bitsquare
Windows Vista or 7: %appdata%/Bitsquare

If you use a not supported OS (e.g. 32bit Windows) please use the Bitsquare.jar file. You need to have Java v1.8.0_40 or better installed on your system to run the Bitsquare jar file.

[k99]

https://github.com/bitsquare/bitsquare/releases/tag/v0.3.6

You are so fast!!!! :-)

[navaman]

Interesting. this is the first time I have run across this project.  It actually makes the most sense out of everything I had been researching this past week.

I watched the video and read most of the documentation but have a few questions:

I am going to do more research on this subject but don't you need a payment processor or a financial institution to initiate SEPA transfers?  How does the P2P system do this? 

Does the P2P software confirm that fiat has been sent to the proper trader or does the receiver do that or both?  If the software does, then how does it know this?

Everybody that has tried to do ACH runs into the same problems, what is the difference between the too systems that makes SEPA more secure?  European finance seems to have been ahead of the U.S. in the area for security for such things credit and debit cards.  Is the U.S. regulation too customer friendly that makes charging back the de facto policy when a customer complains?

I'm not lazy and am somewhat familiar with this new website called Google, so I will find the answers too.  It has always been my impression and my friends from our stints in Europe and other places that U.S. finance is far more heavily regulated in both traditional banking and investments so I am interested how these systems can be integrated in crypto.  Everything I have been looking at for ideas has some sort of fatal flaw.  It still seems to atop the the traditional system or is fairy dust like maintaining pegs to the dollar.  Microsoft probably opened up a can of worms backing Bitshares for instance and so is everybody pushing it.  It is just that these are too small for regulators to worry about for now and legal issues far from resolved.  So, something like this definitely has a market. 

One area that might be a problem is some sort of liability for the arbitrators, a blanket Arbitrators, Judges & Mediators Errors and Omissions Insurance (E&O) would cover that and doesn't cover fraud by them.  It could be paid for some how by fees, cover legal costs they might incur and can probably be done through some sort of real world trust fairly cheap.  So, It can save somebody a headache down the road. 

[k99]

Interesting. this is the first time I have run across this project.  It actually makes the most sense out of everything I had been researching this past week.

I watched the video and read most of the documentation but have a few questions:

I am going to do more research on this subject but don't you need a payment processor or a financial institution to initiate SEPA transfers?  How does the P2P system do this? 

Does the P2P software confirm that fiat has been sent to the proper trader or does the receiver do that or both?  If the software does, then how does it know this?

Everybody that has tried to do ACH runs into the same problems, what is the difference between the too systems that makes SEPA more secure?  European finance seems to have been ahead of the U.S. in the area for security for such things credit and debit cards.  Is the U.S. regulation too customer friendly that makes charging back the de facto policy when a customer complains?

I'm not lazy and am somewhat familiar with this new website called Google, so I will find the answers too.  It has always been my impression and my friends from our stints in Europe and other places that U.S. finance is far more heavily regulated in both traditional banking and investments so I am interested how these systems can be integrated in crypto.  Everything I have been looking at for ideas has some sort of fatal flaw.  It still seems to atop the the traditional system or is fairy dust like maintaining pegs to the dollar.  Microsoft probably opened up a can of worms backing Bitshares for instance and so is everybody pushing it.  It is just that these are too small for regulators to worry about for now and legal issues far from resolved.  So, something like this definitely has a market. 

One area that might be a problem is some sort of liability for the arbitrators, a blanket Arbitrators, Judges & Mediators Errors and Omissions Insurance (E&O) would cover that and doesn't cover fraud by them.  It could be paid for some how by fees, cover legal costs they might incur and can probably be done through some sort of real world trust fairly cheap.  So, It can save somebody a headache down the road. 

Hi,
the Fiat transfer is done outside of Bitsquare, similar like in LocalBitcoins. You go to your online banking webpage do the transfer and then confirm that you send the money. The Bitsquare app sends that confirmation to the other user who then need to check his bank account and when he has received the Fiat money he confirms as well and then the trade is completed.
Later there might be integration of payment processors like OKPay or PerfectMoney who offer APIs so you could do the Fiat transfer form inside Bitsquare.
Feel free to try it out it is already operational on mainnet and you can use it worldwise with national bank transfers.

Regarding chargeback risk:
We don't support payment methods like Paypal or ACH where chargeback is easy. In SEPA you need to provice the banks strong evidence like a contract breach to be able to do chargeback. The only real risk is the case if the BTC buyer used a stolen bank account, then a chargeback happens. To reduce that risk we use a low trade limit which makes Bitsquare not attractive to those criminals. Furthermore we have some other protection in place which is not activated yet (locktime for btc payout).

Regarding arbitration:
Here is a good overview baout the whole process:
https://bitsquare.io/arbitration_system.pdf

The fully decentralized arbitration system is not developed yet but planned for upcoming releases. It will be secured by a high security deposit held in MultiSig by other arbitrators.

Br,
Manfred