Scarcity model bullshit.

[sublime5447]

First of all, I'd just like to state that any model that isn't based off scarcity is a fantasy because reality itself provides multiple limits on us. The only limitless dimension we can ever hope to experience in our lifetimes is our imaginations. The most simple illustration of this is time, in which we all have a limited amount and since all of our lives are built upon a limited and scarce amount of time, we can never hope to build something that is limitless on top of it. Logically, it makes no sense.

However, I'd like to address this abundance model specifically:

The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems."

In this system, there is scarcity as well, namely the specific person and the specific good or service. For example, if 100 people have promises that a local carpenter will build a porch for them and that person dies, all those people who have this promise now have a worthless promise because that person will never be able to fulfill their promise. The main abundance in this model would be the amount of people defaulting on their promises.

Abundance is an illusion, scarcity cannot be escaped. The sooner it's accepted, the more practical solutions that can be devised based off of reality.

Right but people wouldnt trust coins issued from individuals in their 90's with no employees and if they did they would expect a risk premium.

The number of credits in the market place would be limited by the actual ability to redeem those credits. So reality would set the limit not some arbitrary amount of metal or number pulled out of the air.

[sublime5447]

Gold as a currency for thousands of years and then being usurped by an oppressive government is a great indication that the scarcity model does not work for money.

Gold worked to create stability and prosperity because as humans created more value than the above ground gold stock could quantify they where able to go out and find more. Gold eventually failed when man created more value than gold was capable of representing. 

Defining the unit of the measure of value in terms of gold or bitcoin is like defining the unit of the measure of length in terms of an inch worm.

[sublime5447]

The value of my money goes up or remains constant over time = scarcity is bad... that argument makes no sense to me.

That is not the argument.. Money that's value stays constant is exactly what I am after. It is money who's value changes that is immoral. Deflationary currencies rob from borrowers inflationary currencies rob from savers, both are bad. Honest money maintains its purchasing power, it doesnt increase or decrease.  

[jonald_fyookball]

The value of my money goes up or remains constant over time = scarcity is bad... that argument makes no sense to me.

That is not the argument.. Money that's value stays constant is exactly what I am after. It is money who's value changes that is immoral. Deflation airy currencies rob from borrowers inflationary currencies rob from savers, both are bad. Honest money maintains its purchasing power, it doesnt increase or decrease. 

value stays in constant in relation to what?

[sublime5447]

Gold as a currency for thousands of years and then being usurped by an oppressive government is a great indication that the scarcity model does not work for money.

Gold is not problem...government is

I read that book. Murray Rothbard "What has government done to our money" he is mostly wrong. I would rather deal with gold manipulation than the governments manipulation, but that was written in an era where those where the only two options. That isnt the world we are living in.
   

[sublime5447]

The value of my money goes up or remains constant over time = scarcity is bad... that argument makes no sense to me.

That is not the argument.. Money that's value stays constant is exactly what I am after. It is money who's value changes that is immoral. Deflation airy currencies rob from borrowers inflationary currencies rob from savers, both are bad. Honest money maintains its purchasing power, it doesnt increase or decrease. 

value stays in constant in relation to what?

In relation to a socially objective standard, the rodgers commodity index has been suggest. 

[jonald_fyookball]

The value of my money goes up or remains constant over time = scarcity is bad... that argument makes no sense to me.

That is not the argument.. Money that's value stays constant is exactly what I am after. It is money who's value changes that is immoral. Deflation airy currencies rob from borrowers inflationary currencies rob from savers, both are bad. Honest money maintains its purchasing power, it doesnt increase or decrease. 

value stays in constant in relation to what?

In relation to a socially objective standard, the rodgers commodity index has been suggest. 

there's probably a reason why shares of index funds aren't used as money, but I don't know what that would be.
Probably because few people are concerned about it.

[Bit_Happy]

Do you like the willy report? http://willyreport.wordpress.com/

The Willy report is/was a fascinating look at major fraud. The crime helps remind us how desirable Bitcoins are. That demonstrated BTC value justifies the cost of production and network security.

Do you like the price instability?

Yes I certainly do. 

[ljudotina]

Gold as a currency for thousands of years and then being usurped by an oppressive government is a great indication that the scarcity model does not work for money.

Gold is not problem...government is

I read that book. Murray Rothbard "What has government done to our money" he is mostly wrong. I would rather deal with gold manipulation than the governments manipulation, but that was written in an era where those where the only two options. That isnt the world we are living in.
   

Yes, now we have alternative in form of cryptos. I just hope they survive long enough.

[Elwar]

You should put all of your money into Euros right now.

With negative interest rates you will be able to enjoy some great inflation.

[sublime5447]

Do you like the willy report? http://willyreport.wordpress.com/

The Willy report is/was a fascinating look at major fraud. The crime helps remind us how desirable Bitcoins are. That demonstrated BTC value justifies the cost of production and network security.

Do you like the price instability?

Yes I certainly do. 

 

[juls2322]

As far as using electricity, it won't be long before it reaches the limit and can't be mined any longer, hence no more use of electicity

[jonald_fyookball]

As far as using electricity, it won't be long before it reaches the limit and can't be mined any longer, hence no more use of electicity

what the heck are you blathering about

[ljudotina]

As far as using electricity, it won't be long before it reaches the limit and can't be mined any longer, hence no more use of electicity

what the heck are you blathering about

Mining never stops. Once rewards stop, ppl will mine for fees

[Neodamus]

First of all, I'd just like to state that any model that isn't based off scarcity is a fantasy because reality itself provides multiple limits on us. The only limitless dimension we can ever hope to experience in our lifetimes is our imaginations. The most simple illustration of this is time, in which we all have a limited amount and since all of our lives are built upon a limited and scarce amount of time, we can never hope to build something that is limitless on top of it. Logically, it makes no sense.

However, I'd like to address this abundance model specifically:

The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems."

In this system, there is scarcity as well, namely the specific person and the specific good or service. For example, if 100 people have promises that a local carpenter will build a porch for them and that person dies, all those people who have this promise now have a worthless promise because that person will never be able to fulfill their promise. The main abundance in this model would be the amount of people defaulting on their promises.

Abundance is an illusion, scarcity cannot be escaped. The sooner it's accepted, the more practical solutions that can be devised based off of reality.

Right but people wouldnt trust coins issued from individuals in their 90's with no employees and if they did they would expect a risk premium.

The number of credits in the market place would be limited by the actual ability to redeem those credits. So reality would set the limit not some arbitrary amount of metal or number pulled out of the air.

Hopefully you're aware of the fact that people in their teens, 20's and all ages die unexpectedly or are injured in such a way that they can no longer provide goods or services. The truth is, the inability to service credit would happen all the time in a massive 'abundance' economy, so there would be risk in virtually every single transaction as they are all based on promises of future production. The future, by nature, is unpredictable and full of risk.

This risk is completely eliminated when value is cleared at the moment of transaction as in botcoin rather than a future date as in the abundance model.

Another massive problem with this model is the fact that issues of credit aren't really divisible, which will make liquidity a real problem given that people have a much harder time finding equal value transactions. For example, how does a bread maker trade for a car? Would they be able to give an auto company enough bread vouchers to get the car? Or would they have to trade airline miles, food vouchers, accounting services, and other issues of credit they have amassed through their bread making company just to make it an even deal? Even then, will an auto dealer accept a hodgepodge of credit issued from various producers and vendors that it may never deal with directly?

Or would it be better just to have a standardized transfer of value organizations can choose to accept or reject?

I feel like you're not really thinking the model through very much in terms of practicality.

[sublime5447]

First of all, I'd just like to state that any model that isn't based off scarcity is a fantasy because reality itself provides multiple limits on us. The only limitless dimension we can ever hope to experience in our lifetimes is our imaginations. The most simple illustration of this is time, in which we all have a limited amount and since all of our lives are built upon a limited and scarce amount of time, we can never hope to build something that is limitless on top of it. Logically, it makes no sense.

However, I'd like to address this abundance model specifically:

The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems."

In this system, there is scarcity as well, namely the specific person and the specific good or service. For example, if 100 people have promises that a local carpenter will build a porch for them and that person dies, all those people who have this promise now have a worthless promise because that person will never be able to fulfill their promise. The main abundance in this model would be the amount of people defaulting on their promises.

Abundance is an illusion, scarcity cannot be escaped. The sooner it's accepted, the more practical solutions that can be devised based off of reality.

Right but people wouldnt trust coins issued from individuals in their 90's with no employees and if they did they would expect a risk premium.

The number of credits in the market place would be limited by the actual ability to redeem those credits. So reality would set the limit not some arbitrary amount of metal or number pulled out of the air.

Hopefully you're aware of the fact that people in their teens, 20's and all ages die unexpectedly or are injured in such a way that they can no longer provide goods or services. The truth is, the inability to service credit would happen all the time in a massive 'abundance' economy, so there would be risk in virtually every single transaction as they are all based on promises of future production. The future, by nature, is unpredictable and full of risk.

This risk is completely eliminated when value is cleared at the moment of transaction as in botcoin rather than a future date as in the abundance model.

Another massive problem with this model is the fact that issues of credit aren't really divisible, which will make liquidity a real problem given that people have a much harder time finding equal value transactions. For example, how does a bread maker trade for a car? Would they be able to give an auto company enough bread vouchers to get the car? Or would they have to trade airline miles, food vouchers, accounting services, and other issues of credit they have amassed through their bread making company just to make it an even deal? Even then, will an auto dealer accept a hodgepodge of credit issued from various producers and vendors that it may never deal with directly?

Or would it be better just to have a standardized transfer of value organizations can choose to accept or reject?

I feel like you're not really thinking the model through very much in terms of practicality.

http://www.moneyasdebt.net/  read the whole proposal.. your concerns are addressed

[Elwar]

Keynes was such a great guy. If only his theories were taught in our schools and his theories touted by economists and government agencies.

[Bit_Happy]

Keynes was such a great guy. If only his theories were taught in our schools and his theories touted by economists and government agencies.

Even Keynes saw the irony in this quote?
“The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.”  ~John Maynard Keynes

[johnyj]

OP, please wake up from the slavery dream(Bankers print money and your work), and enjoy the beautiful honest money bitcoin

There are 2 major problems in the traditional money concept:


1. Do we really need price stability?

We all know that value is decided by supply and demand together, and that changes constantly. If the value is changing constantly, why should the price keep constant?


2. Who get the ownership of newly created money

Money is just like any other commodity, should be produced by labor in itself, in order to make the trading fair. If someone created money without doing anything and use that to exchange other's goods/services, what is the reason that others will allow this kind of robery happen?


So, a good money does not create price stability, its value fluctuates, this is due to the fact that the market demand for money is constantly changing. And, a good money must be created by work (have cost close to its face value), to make sure it is always a fair trade when someone sell their goods/services for the money

[sublime5447]

OP, please wake up from the slavery dream(Bankers print money and your work), and enjoy the beautiful honest money bitcoin

There are 2 major problems in the traditional money concept:


1. Do we really need price stability?

We all know that value is decided by supply and demand together, and that changes constantly. If the value is changing constantly, why should the price keep constant?


2. Who get the ownership of newly created money

Money is just like any other commodity, should be produced by labor in itself, in order to make the trading fair. If someone created money without doing anything and use that to exchange other's goods/services, what is the reason that others will allow this kind of robery happen?


So, a good money does not create price stability, its value fluctuates, this is due to the fact that the market demand for money is constantly changing. And, a good money must be created by work (have cost close to its face value), to make sure it is always a fair trade when someone sell their goods/services for the money

Honest and bitcoin shouldnt go next to one another like that. I dont expect to convince the bitcoin zealots and those with large bitcoin holdings. They say they stupidest shit.

Honesty is getting what you payed for. No more no less, your view point of money is the slavery model. The scarcity model for currency is what creates, war, poverty, income inequality. Bitcoin is just like the DOLLAR!  

http://peacefreedomprosperity.com/7776/inability-bitcoin-serve-rational-economic-calculation/