Sunny King talked security of Peercoin and Bitcoin

[hicaribou]

Sunny King's original post at: http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2515.msg27233#msg27233

Sunny King:

I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake.

Also, you don't need 50% of all coins, you only need a significant portion of active minting coins for a '51% attack' (in bitcoin's terms), which includes the ability to DoS the blockchain. However this does not mean peercoin's security is then weaker than bitcoin's. After 6~7 years, bitcoin's inflation rate would be close to 1% annual. Let's assume that the mining capital has a lifecycle of 3 years, then you would only need 3% of bitcoin total coin stock value to permanently 51% bitcoin blockchain. Of course, bitcoin's inflation would drop further after another 4 years, and so on. So we are kinda of looking at bitcoin's security at most a couple percent of total coin stock value.

Currently my rough estimate of peercoin's 51% security is at about 1M~2M peercoins. That already puts us ahead of bitcoin's future. Unlike bitcoin, peercoin's security is not a function of inflation rate. Over time it would only strengthen as coins are more distributed. With the features that reduces minters' risk while improving incentive are introduced, we are looking at a good leap of security level further.

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[DeathAndTaxes]

After 6~7 years, bitcoin's inflation rate would be close to 1% annual.  Let's assume that the mining capital has a lifecycle of 3 years, then you would only need 3% of bitcoin total coin stock value to permanently 51% bitcoin blockchain.

This assumes tx fees totaling 0 BTC forever.  Also BTC won't reach 1% inflation in 6-7 years it is more like 15 years.

[jubalix]

After 6~7 years, bitcoin's inflation rate would be close to 1% annual.  Let's assume that the mining capital has a lifecycle of 3 years, then you would only need 3% of bitcoin total coin stock value to permanently 51% bitcoin blockchain.

This assumes tx fees totaling 0 BTC forever.  Also BTC won't reach 1% inflation in 6-7 years it is more like 15 years.

I still feel safer diversifying into PeerCoin than staying with just BTC.

The pressure and the drama of miners is just to much. The backbone currency is where the real £value is at. Not craptplastic Amazon or Ebay.

Further Mining will more or less suck up every bit of value in BTC minted at a given time to the point of being able to sustatin a mining operation, because it's money left on the table. Conversely this may have a value add effect as well, as it sort of value all previously minted values at that price as well even though the cost much less to be mined and BTC are fungible.

It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW. The issues to do the are just technical. NXT and Peercoin are testament to this.

One wonders if a PeerCoin/NXT duoploy will take the cake.

[xiaobei]

Very interesting point of view

[lalakies23]

Peercoin is going to prevail. NXT is just a java based crypto with numerous bugs waiting to be found .

[From Above]

Peercoin is going to prevail. NXT is just a java based crypto with numerous bugs waiting to be found .

i love peercoins asset exchange. it really good obviously
all the features it have is amazing

[gatra]

I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake.

but PoW can be attacked too.. there are still many new PoW blocks in peercoin, aren't there? so there are 2 vectors of attack...

Over time it would only strengthen as coins are more distributed.

But with PoS, those who have more coins can get more coins than those who don't... this concentrates coins rather than help distribution...


just my 2cents

gatra

[r0ach]

It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.

You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless.

[From Above]

It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.

You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless.

Bitcoin is so awesome man. Despite 5 years old new features every month. LOVE it

[hicaribou]

I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake.

but PoW can be attacked too.. there are still many new PoW blocks in peercoin, aren't there? so there are 2 vectors of attack...

Over time it would only strengthen as coins are more distributed.

But with PoS, those who have more coins can get more coins than those who don't... this concentrates coins rather than help distribution...


just my 2cents

gatra

The more money he/she has, the more he/she will spend. Few people are miser.

The poor people can become rich through minting if they purchase PPC which is at very low price now. One BTC can buy 300 PPC now.

[hicaribou]

It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.

You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless.

Bitcoin is so awesome man. Despite 5 years old new features every month. LOVE it

I would like to suggest that you sell half amount of your BTC and purchase PPC. I believe PPC will give us good luck!

[bitgold]

Sunny King has spoken, from his silvery golden chair 

[From Above]

It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.

You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless.

Bitcoin is so awesome man. Despite 5 years old new features every month. LOVE it

I would like to suggest that you sell half amount of your BTC and purchase PPC. I believe PPC will give us good luck!

i already have thousand times more PPC than bitcoin my friend

[lemfuture]

It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.

You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless.

Bitcoin is so awesome man. Despite 5 years old new features every month. LOVE it

I would like to suggest that you sell half amount of your BTC and purchase PPC. I believe PPC will give us good luck!

i already have thousand times more PPC than bitcoin my friend

that explains the bias

[From Above]

It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.

You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless.

Bitcoin is so awesome man. Despite 5 years old new features every month. LOVE it

I would like to suggest that you sell half amount of your BTC and purchase PPC. I believe PPC will give us good luck!

i already have thousand times more PPC than bitcoin my friend

that explains the bias

i was joking. i dont have ppc and i dont give a damn about it

[lynn_402]

I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake.

but PoW can be attacked too.. there are still many new PoW blocks in peercoin, aren't there? so there are 2 vectors of attack...

Actually, if I understand correctly, PoW is used only for distribution. There could not be a 51% PoW attack, because more trust is given to PoS blocks.

But with PoS, those who have more coins can get more coins than those who don't... this concentrates coins rather than help distribution...


just my 2cents

gatra

That's false, everybody gets 1%. It's like mining; you get an amount of coins proportional to the amount you invest.

[hicaribou]

Sunny King has spoken, from his silvery golden chair 

Because of Sunny King, I believe in Peercoin!

Peercoin v0.4 already implemented "Unlocked for Minting Only" which let minting much safer.
Sunny King and Peercoin community are working on cold-locked minting and improving minting incentive which will be included in v0.5, I guess;
Peercoin v0.6 will include side chains, I guess.
and so on ...

Peercoin will have a perfect infrastructure and has a great and bright future!  

[hicaribou]

I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake.

but PoW can be attacked too.. there are still many new PoW blocks in peercoin, aren't there? so there are 2 vectors of attack...

Over time it would only strengthen as coins are more distributed.

But with PoS, those who have more coins can get more coins than those who don't... this concentrates coins rather than help distribution...


just my 2cents

gatra

PoW can't attack Peercoin. Peercoin's security 100% relies on PoS.

[Sentinelrv]

Actually, if I understand correctly, PoW is used only for distribution. There could not be a 51% PoW attack, because more trust is given to PoS blocks.

Yes, that is correct. Read the first paragraph of Sunny's quote in the first post...

"I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake." - Sunny King

He goes on to say that this doesn't necessarily make Peercoin less secure.

[hicaribou]

Peercoin is going to prevail. NXT is just a java based crypto with numerous bugs waiting to be found .

Right. The worse is that NXT is like a plate of sand without a solid infrastructure.