hicaribou (OP)
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June 13, 2014, 02:46:21 AM |
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Sunny King's original post at: http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2515.msg27233#msg27233Sunny King: I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake. Also, you don't need 50% of all coins, you only need a significant portion of active minting coins for a '51% attack' (in bitcoin's terms), which includes the ability to DoS the blockchain. However this does not mean peercoin's security is then weaker than bitcoin's. After 6~7 years, bitcoin's inflation rate would be close to 1% annual. Let's assume that the mining capital has a lifecycle of 3 years, then you would only need 3% of bitcoin total coin stock value to permanently 51% bitcoin blockchain. Of course, bitcoin's inflation would drop further after another 4 years, and so on. So we are kinda of looking at bitcoin's security at most a couple percent of total coin stock value. Currently my rough estimate of peercoin's 51% security is at about 1M~2M peercoins. That already puts us ahead of bitcoin's future. Unlike bitcoin, peercoin's security is not a function of inflation rate. Over time it would only strengthen as coins are more distributed. With the features that reduces minters' risk while improving incentive are introduced, we are looking at a good leap of security level further.
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DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis
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June 13, 2014, 02:52:19 AM |
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After 6~7 years, bitcoin's inflation rate would be close to 1% annual. Let's assume that the mining capital has a lifecycle of 3 years, then you would only need 3% of bitcoin total coin stock value to permanently 51% bitcoin blockchain. This assumes tx fees totaling 0 BTC forever. Also BTC won't reach 1% inflation in 6-7 years it is more like 15 years.
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jubalix
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June 13, 2014, 03:29:52 AM |
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After 6~7 years, bitcoin's inflation rate would be close to 1% annual. Let's assume that the mining capital has a lifecycle of 3 years, then you would only need 3% of bitcoin total coin stock value to permanently 51% bitcoin blockchain. This assumes tx fees totaling 0 BTC forever. Also BTC won't reach 1% inflation in 6-7 years it is more like 15 years. I still feel safer diversifying into PeerCoin than staying with just BTC. The pressure and the drama of miners is just to much. The backbone currency is where the real £value is at. Not craptplastic Amazon or Ebay. Further Mining will more or less suck up every bit of value in BTC minted at a given time to the point of being able to sustatin a mining operation, because it's money left on the table. Conversely this may have a value add effect as well, as it sort of value all previously minted values at that price as well even though the cost much less to be mined and BTC are fungible. It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW. The issues to do the are just technical. NXT and Peercoin are testament to this. One wonders if a PeerCoin/NXT duoploy will take the cake.
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xiaobei
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June 13, 2014, 04:10:31 AM |
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Very interesting point of view
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lalakies23
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June 13, 2014, 05:14:56 PM |
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Peercoin is going to prevail. NXT is just a java based crypto with numerous bugs waiting to be found ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) .
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From Above
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June 13, 2014, 07:02:14 PM |
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Peercoin is going to prevail. NXT is just a java based crypto with numerous bugs waiting to be found ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) . i love peercoins asset exchange. it really good obviously all the features it have is amazing
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gatra
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June 13, 2014, 07:05:56 PM |
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I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake.
but PoW can be attacked too.. there are still many new PoW blocks in peercoin, aren't there? so there are 2 vectors of attack... Over time it would only strengthen as coins are more distributed.
But with PoS, those who have more coins can get more coins than those who don't... this concentrates coins rather than help distribution... just my 2cents gatra
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r0ach
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June 13, 2014, 07:21:19 PM |
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It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.
You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless.
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From Above
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June 13, 2014, 07:34:00 PM |
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It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.
You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless. Bitcoin is so awesome man. Despite 5 years old new features every month. LOVE it
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hicaribou (OP)
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June 14, 2014, 12:43:18 AM |
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I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake.
but PoW can be attacked too.. there are still many new PoW blocks in peercoin, aren't there? so there are 2 vectors of attack... Over time it would only strengthen as coins are more distributed.
But with PoS, those who have more coins can get more coins than those who don't... this concentrates coins rather than help distribution... just my 2cents gatra The more money he/she has, the more he/she will spend. Few people are miser. The poor people can become rich through minting if they purchase PPC which is at very low price now. One BTC can buy 300 PPC now.
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hicaribou (OP)
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June 14, 2014, 01:08:43 AM |
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It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.
You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless. Bitcoin is so awesome man. Despite 5 years old new features every month. LOVE it I would like to suggest that you sell half amount of your BTC and purchase PPC. I believe PPC will give us good luck!
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bitgold
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June 14, 2014, 01:10:33 AM |
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Sunny King has spoken, from his silvery golden chair ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif)
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From Above
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June 14, 2014, 01:12:19 AM |
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It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.
You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless. Bitcoin is so awesome man. Despite 5 years old new features every month. LOVE it I would like to suggest that you sell half amount of your BTC and purchase PPC. I believe PPC will give us good luck! i already have thousand times more PPC than bitcoin my friend
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lemfuture
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June 14, 2014, 01:16:55 AM |
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It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.
You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless. Bitcoin is so awesome man. Despite 5 years old new features every month. LOVE it I would like to suggest that you sell half amount of your BTC and purchase PPC. I believe PPC will give us good luck! i already have thousand times more PPC than bitcoin my friend that explains the bias
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1ADLcfwTofFXb95pKhebpeRkJ4WTWsvQXB
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From Above
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June 14, 2014, 01:17:31 AM |
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It seems pretty much certain at this point POS or Non mining will take over from POW.
You left out option two, Bitcoin converts to PoS sometime in the future rendering both Peercoin and NXT worthless. Bitcoin is so awesome man. Despite 5 years old new features every month. LOVE it I would like to suggest that you sell half amount of your BTC and purchase PPC. I believe PPC will give us good luck! i already have thousand times more PPC than bitcoin my friend that explains the bias i was joking. i dont have ppc and i dont give a damn about it ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif)
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lynn_402
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June 14, 2014, 01:25:51 AM |
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I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake.
but PoW can be attacked too.. there are still many new PoW blocks in peercoin, aren't there? so there are 2 vectors of attack...
Actually, if I understand correctly, PoW is used only for distribution. There could not be a 51% PoW attack, because more trust is given to PoS blocks. But with PoS, those who have more coins can get more coins than those who don't... this concentrates coins rather than help distribution...
just my 2cents
gatra
That's false, everybody gets 1%. It's like mining; you get an amount of coins proportional to the amount you invest.
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hicaribou (OP)
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June 14, 2014, 01:29:19 AM |
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Sunny King has spoken, from his silvery golden chair ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) Because of Sunny King, I believe in Peercoin! Peercoin v0.4 already implemented "Unlocked for Minting Only" which let minting much safer. Sunny King and Peercoin community are working on cold-locked minting and improving minting incentive which will be included in v0.5, I guess; Peercoin v0.6 will include side chains, I guess. and so on ... Peercoin will have a perfect infrastructure and has a great and bright future!
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hicaribou (OP)
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June 14, 2014, 01:34:21 AM |
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I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake.
but PoW can be attacked too.. there are still many new PoW blocks in peercoin, aren't there? so there are 2 vectors of attack... Over time it would only strengthen as coins are more distributed.
But with PoS, those who have more coins can get more coins than those who don't... this concentrates coins rather than help distribution... just my 2cents gatra PoW can't attack Peercoin. Peercoin's security 100% relies on PoS.
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Sentinelrv
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June 14, 2014, 02:02:03 AM |
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Actually, if I understand correctly, PoW is used only for distribution. There could not be a 51% PoW attack, because more trust is given to PoS blocks.
Yes, that is correct. Read the first paragraph of Sunny's quote in the first post... "I have never claimed that you need both 51% PoW and 51% all coins to attack peercoin. That's a misunderstanding of peercoin's security. Peercoin's security is 100% proof-of-stake, so in terms of security it's not really a hybrid system. So you don't need 51% PoW. You need and only need to attack proof-of-stake." - Sunny KingHe goes on to say that this doesn't necessarily make Peercoin less secure.
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hicaribou (OP)
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June 14, 2014, 05:31:17 AM Last edit: June 14, 2014, 06:38:22 AM by hicaribou |
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Peercoin is going to prevail. NXT is just a java based crypto with numerous bugs waiting to be found ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) . Right. The worse is that NXT is like a plate of sand without a solid infrastructure.
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