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Author Topic: bitcoin and money laundering  (Read 9462 times)
tmobileguy
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July 04, 2014, 09:46:22 AM
 #61


People should be able to do whatever they damn well please with THEIR money!

You would probably not agree with that statement if someone was paying a hitman to make you the mark...

"People should be able to do whatever they damn well please with THEIR money as long as it is not malicious or has an intent of evil to harm someone else"
Erdogan
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July 04, 2014, 09:48:20 AM
 #62

Bitcoin is only pseudoanonymous (though if you hide your IP and use new addresses every time it is pretty much anonymous).

That being said, I can't wait to see what extra anonymity features that Zerocash will be bringing to the table when it is released!
You can use blockchain's shared coin to get the same effect as zerocash but with shorter TX confirmation times as zerocash has all TXs in a shared coin format and when one party "backs out" of a TX then the TX will fail and all the parties will need to try again by all signing a new TX

If your trying to launder coins i would suggest for you not to use sharedcoin as it has been proven not to be so anonymous

Link:
http://www.coindesk.com/blockchains-sharedcoin-users-can-identified-says-security-expert/
Shared coin when used in conjunction with other mixers can mask your identity.   

XMR coin is currently partnering with I2P developers to see if they can bring anon coin into the market.

Darkcoin already have two failed implementation. The current framework the coin operates on may not even be possible to implement a truly anonymous coin.

I don't think that these types of extreme privacy features have that much of a demand from crypto users.

Black market transaction still make up a large portion of bitcoin daily transaction.


What are "black market" transactions?

How do you define the term?

Stuff you don't like?

People trying to avoid brutal and punitive taxation?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Black market: Trades deemed illegal by people who trample on other's rights.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that definition. The black market would be more trades deemed wrong by people as a society. Take for example human trafficking, I think it could be agreed that society as a whole would agree that human trafficking is wrong, but sadly it is still a reality. Regardless of the legality of selling humans, this trade would be done on what would be considered to be the black market.

I agree, that is violation of rights, and everyone should be against it. That doesn't mean that some group of people can decide arbitrarily that some voluntary trades are illegal. If they don't violate rights, they are legal.
LostDutchman
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July 04, 2014, 12:25:15 PM
 #63

Bitcoin is only pseudoanonymous (though if you hide your IP and use new addresses every time it is pretty much anonymous).

That being said, I can't wait to see what extra anonymity features that Zerocash will be bringing to the table when it is released!
You can use blockchain's shared coin to get the same effect as zerocash but with shorter TX confirmation times as zerocash has all TXs in a shared coin format and when one party "backs out" of a TX then the TX will fail and all the parties will need to try again by all signing a new TX

If your trying to launder coins i would suggest for you not to use sharedcoin as it has been proven not to be so anonymous

Link:
http://www.coindesk.com/blockchains-sharedcoin-users-can-identified-says-security-expert/
Shared coin when used in conjunction with other mixers can mask your identity.   

XMR coin is currently partnering with I2P developers to see if they can bring anon coin into the market.

Darkcoin already have two failed implementation. The current framework the coin operates on may not even be possible to implement a truly anonymous coin.

I don't think that these types of extreme privacy features have that much of a demand from crypto users.

Black market transaction still make up a large portion of bitcoin daily transaction.


What are "black market" transactions?

How do you define the term?

Stuff you don't like?

People trying to avoid brutal and punitive taxation?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Black market: Trades deemed illegal by people who trample on other's rights.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that definition. The black market would be more trades deemed wrong by people as a society. Take for example human trafficking, I think it could be agreed that society as a whole would agree that human trafficking is wrong, but sadly it is still a reality. Regardless of the legality of selling humans, this trade would be done on what would be considered to be the black market.

I agree, that is violation of rights, and everyone should be against it. That doesn't mean that some group of people can decide arbitrarily that some voluntary trades are illegal. If they don't violate rights, they are legal.

Any "internal controls" placed on bitcoin will drive tha value to near zero and former Bitcoin users to altcoins.

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Harley997
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July 04, 2014, 06:19:38 PM
 #64

Bitcoin is only pseudoanonymous (though if you hide your IP and use new addresses every time it is pretty much anonymous).

That being said, I can't wait to see what extra anonymity features that Zerocash will be bringing to the table when it is released!
You can use blockchain's shared coin to get the same effect as zerocash but with shorter TX confirmation times as zerocash has all TXs in a shared coin format and when one party "backs out" of a TX then the TX will fail and all the parties will need to try again by all signing a new TX

If your trying to launder coins i would suggest for you not to use sharedcoin as it has been proven not to be so anonymous

Link:
http://www.coindesk.com/blockchains-sharedcoin-users-can-identified-says-security-expert/
Shared coin when used in conjunction with other mixers can mask your identity.   

XMR coin is currently partnering with I2P developers to see if they can bring anon coin into the market.

Darkcoin already have two failed implementation. The current framework the coin operates on may not even be possible to implement a truly anonymous coin.

I don't think that these types of extreme privacy features have that much of a demand from crypto users.

Black market transaction still make up a large portion of bitcoin daily transaction.


What are "black market" transactions?

How do you define the term?

Stuff you don't like?

People trying to avoid brutal and punitive taxation?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Black market: Trades deemed illegal by people who trample on other's rights.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that definition. The black market would be more trades deemed wrong by people as a society. Take for example human trafficking, I think it could be agreed that society as a whole would agree that human trafficking is wrong, but sadly it is still a reality. Regardless of the legality of selling humans, this trade would be done on what would be considered to be the black market.

I agree, that is violation of rights, and everyone should be against it. That doesn't mean that some group of people can decide arbitrarily that some voluntary trades are illegal. If they don't violate rights, they are legal.
Some things that are illegal may not directly violate other's rights but may do so indirectly. One example of this would be the black market for stolen merchandise. Although the merchandise may have been stolen a long time ago, the functioning market in effect took away the rights (property) of the original owner.

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Erdogan
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July 05, 2014, 03:29:17 AM
 #65

Bitcoin is only pseudoanonymous (though if you hide your IP and use new addresses every time it is pretty much anonymous).

That being said, I can't wait to see what extra anonymity features that Zerocash will be bringing to the table when it is released!
You can use blockchain's shared coin to get the same effect as zerocash but with shorter TX confirmation times as zerocash has all TXs in a shared coin format and when one party "backs out" of a TX then the TX will fail and all the parties will need to try again by all signing a new TX

If your trying to launder coins i would suggest for you not to use sharedcoin as it has been proven not to be so anonymous

Link:
http://www.coindesk.com/blockchains-sharedcoin-users-can-identified-says-security-expert/
Shared coin when used in conjunction with other mixers can mask your identity.   

XMR coin is currently partnering with I2P developers to see if they can bring anon coin into the market.

Darkcoin already have two failed implementation. The current framework the coin operates on may not even be possible to implement a truly anonymous coin.

I don't think that these types of extreme privacy features have that much of a demand from crypto users.

Black market transaction still make up a large portion of bitcoin daily transaction.


What are "black market" transactions?

How do you define the term?

Stuff you don't like?

People trying to avoid brutal and punitive taxation?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Black market: Trades deemed illegal by people who trample on other's rights.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that definition. The black market would be more trades deemed wrong by people as a society. Take for example human trafficking, I think it could be agreed that society as a whole would agree that human trafficking is wrong, but sadly it is still a reality. Regardless of the legality of selling humans, this trade would be done on what would be considered to be the black market.

I agree, that is violation of rights, and everyone should be against it. That doesn't mean that some group of people can decide arbitrarily that some voluntary trades are illegal. If they don't violate rights, they are legal.
Some things that are illegal may not directly violate other's rights but may do so indirectly. One example of this would be the black market for stolen merchandise. Although the merchandise may have been stolen a long time ago, the functioning market in effect took away the rights (property) of the original owner.

I still agree, and this is still violation of rights. The merchandise should be returned and the thieves excluded from trade.

I am talking about smuggled goods, goods which the government has restricted or placed under price controls, traded on a free market. Envision high tariffs on food import, high taxes, price controls. That is empty shelves and hunger. The allegedly illegal free market is necessary to feed the people. There are countless examples from history. Basically, regulation is destructive, sometimes leading to hunger.

The black market is the derogative name of the free market that fixes the destructive violent government regulation.



mikegogulski
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July 05, 2014, 02:10:50 PM
 #66

I've found it useful to divide not into just white/black markets, but into five areas: white, black, gray, red and pink.

From http://www.nostate.com/3441/black-markets-vs-free-markets/ :

“Black market” as commonly understood is a problematic term, since it encompasses both harmless things that governments ban (the cannabis trade, for instance) in most places, as well as harmful things that governments also ban (murder for hire, for example).

I personally favor the market analysis given by agorist theory, which breaks down things along two axes:

  • White market: State-approved, moral (i.e. non-rights-violating) (e.g. on-the-books employment)
  • Gray market: Banned unless done in state-approved manner, moral (e.g. off-the-books trade)
  • Black market: State ban, moral (e.g. drugs)
  • Red market: State ban, immoral (e.g. murder for hire)
  • Pink market: State-approved (and largely state-conducted), immoral (e.g. taxation, conscription, compulsory education)

Visual illustration on slide 7 of a powerpoint I made for a presentation to a libertarian meeting this summer at http://www.nostate.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/What-Sort-of-Libertarian-Are-You1.ppt (reproduced for readers of this blog below).


FREE ROSS ULBRICHT, allegedly one of the Dread Pirates Roberts of the Silk Road
LostDutchman
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July 05, 2014, 02:12:26 PM
 #67

Shit-ton of namby-pamby Big Government types in this thread.

Such types are the greatest single danger to bitcoin and crypto as a whole.

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ShakyhandsBTCer
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July 06, 2014, 01:46:02 AM
 #68

I've found it useful to divide not into just white/black markets, but into five areas: white, black, gray, red and pink.

From http://www.nostate.com/3441/black-markets-vs-free-markets/ :

“Black market” as commonly understood is a problematic term, since it encompasses both harmless things that governments ban (the cannabis trade, for instance) in most places, as well as harmful things that governments also ban (murder for hire, for example).

I personally favor the market analysis given by agorist theory, which breaks down things along two axes:

  • White market: State-approved, moral (i.e. non-rights-violating) (e.g. on-the-books employment)
  • Gray market: Banned unless done in state-approved manner, moral (e.g. off-the-books trade)
  • Black market: State ban, moral (e.g. drugs)
  • Red market: State ban, immoral (e.g. murder for hire)
  • Pink market: State-approved (and largely state-conducted), immoral (e.g. taxation, conscription, compulsory education)

Visual illustration on slide 7 of a powerpoint I made for a presentation to a libertarian meeting this summer at http://www.nostate.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/What-Sort-of-Libertarian-Are-You1.ppt (reproduced for readers of this blog below).


Why is the "Red Market" included in the chart that the state allows it as long as regulations are followed?
enhu
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July 07, 2014, 09:49:03 AM
 #69

but one can partially hide their money through bitcoin. An article lately that i've encounter was about bitcoin and divorce. Cheesy

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BoxControl
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July 07, 2014, 09:50:48 AM
 #70

I think OP had at least a few glasses too much to drink Tongue
LostDutchman
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July 07, 2014, 12:02:28 PM
 #71

but one can partially hide their money through bitcoin. An article lately that i've encounter was about bitcoin and divorce. Cheesy

Done carefully and properly, one could theoreticially hide ALL of one's bitcoin income from the prying eyes of government.

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LazerSMS
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July 07, 2014, 10:14:04 PM
 #72

I only use my coins for completely state approved stuff like buying services I don't need at boringsite.com, donating to the admin of boringblog.com etc.

I'm a good person  Smiley

and then I pay taxes on it, on all of it Smiley

and sometimes I even lose money doing that, but I don't care...

because I feel good then Smiley

I love my Government and I'm sure the feeling is mutual  Kiss

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Erdogan
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July 08, 2014, 05:35:28 PM
 #73

I only use my coins for completely state approved stuff like buying services I don't need at boringsite.com, donating to the admin of boringblog.com etc.

I'm a good person  Smiley
No, because...

Quote

and then I pay taxes on it, on all of it Smiley

you give the bullies money
Quote

and sometimes I even lose money doing that, but I don't care...

because I feel good then Smiley

You have been deluded into thinking self sacrifice is a virtue
Quote

I love my Government and I'm sure the feeling is mutual  Kiss

Think again.
LazerSMS
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July 08, 2014, 08:54:01 PM
 #74

I only use my coins for completely state approved stuff like buying services I don't need at boringsite.com, donating to the admin of boringblog.com etc.

I'm a good person  Smiley
No, because...

Quote

and then I pay taxes on it, on all of it Smiley

you give the bullies money
Quote

and sometimes I even lose money doing that, but I don't care...

because I feel good then Smiley

You have been deluded into thinking self sacrifice is a virtue
Quote

I love my Government and I'm sure the feeling is mutual  Kiss

Think again.


of course it was a joke  Grin

this is how the folk thinks, and it's ridiculous

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LostDutchman
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July 08, 2014, 10:09:36 PM
 #75

I only use my coins for completely state approved stuff like buying services I don't need at boringsite.com, donating to the admin of boringblog.com etc.

I'm a good person  Smiley
No, because...

Quote

and then I pay taxes on it, on all of it Smiley

you give the bullies money
Quote

and sometimes I even lose money doing that, but I don't care...

because I feel good then Smiley

You have been deluded into thinking self sacrifice is a virtue
Quote

I love my Government and I'm sure the feeling is mutual  Kiss

Think again.


of course it was a joke  Grin

this is how the folk thinks, and it's ridiculous

Agreed and the more "regulation" the further undergoround crypto will be driven.

This is of course, as it should be.

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ShakyhandsBTCer
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July 08, 2014, 10:32:29 PM
 #76

but one can partially hide their money through bitcoin. An article lately that i've encounter was about bitcoin and divorce. Cheesy

Done carefully and properly, one could theoreticially hide ALL of one's bitcoin income from the prying eyes of government.
The same is true with fiat. However is this something that is really necessary to have to do?
LostDutchman
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July 08, 2014, 11:10:56 PM
 #77

but one can partially hide their money through bitcoin. An article lately that i've encounter was about bitcoin and divorce. Cheesy

Done carefully and properly, one could theoreticially hide ALL of one's bitcoin income from the prying eyes of government.
The same is true with fiat. However is this something that is really necessary to have to do?

I dinno.

With half the governments on the planet after your money, what do you think?

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Erdogan
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July 09, 2014, 03:03:58 AM
 #78

Re: bitcoin and money laundering

Money are never dirty, and can therefore not be laundered. Money are always divine.
LostDutchman
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July 09, 2014, 03:06:20 AM
 #79

Re: bitcoin and money laundering

Money are never dirty, and can therefore not be laundered. Money are always divine.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8P80A8vy9I

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July 09, 2014, 03:13:10 AM
 #80

Re: bitcoin and money laundering

Money are never dirty, and can therefore not be laundered. Money are always divine.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8P80A8vy9I

Exacly, plus more than that. I came over this, Mike Maloney reads from Atlas Shrugged, the passage where d'Anconia opposes the meme that money is the root of all evil. Maloney gets tears in his eyes when he reads...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkivn_3zn5I
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