PayPal Integrating Bitcoin soon.

[nahtnam]

I HATE PAYPAL! - PAYPALSUCKS.COM[/b]

Paypal ripped me off for over $3,000 and stop a honest money flow that I built up from $10 a day to $1,000 a day within a week. They locked my account and asked for me to explain. I sent them the biggest email I ever sent and explained from the day I got my first computer up to how I was making that money.

They sent me an automated reply just saying my account is closed for good and they held $1,900 of mine for over 6 months (then they did pay me)

But In all the payments I got that week I never had a chargeback, refund request or any problems from the buyers and when my account got locked, I had hundreds of emails of people saying "I am trying to buy but your paypal is locked...are you a scammer?"

Oh that made me so damn mad (at paypal) that I sent them a very bad email and they sent the cops to my house...to make sure I was not on my way to HQ like I said I was. That was years ago and I have moved on from that but that was a million dollar Idea that only crashed because paypal did not want to work with me...while at the same time they let facebook sell poker chips (in the hold poker game) for paypal or any game credits for paypal and thats against the paypal rules too!


FUCK PAYPAL!

I feel you.

Althought they didnt take as much as you away, they did take $180. I think I know how to get it back (A phone call to support should be good enough).

[RixDollar]

Overall, it is a positive, due to the increased visibility and acceptance.

The whole "PayPal escrow" concept mixed in with usage of Bitcoin payment should be interesting.

[InwardContour]

I had talked about this before and every seller should be able to pay an additional fee of 1% to prevent all unauthorized transactions. This will solve 99% of all chargebacks. PayPal then calls up the buyer and verifies the buyer made the transaction. Seller has absolutely no responsibility for unauthorized transactions. Seller still has to deal with "not sending disputes" and "description not matches."

But the majority of scams are the unauthorized.

I would say that unauthorized scams are that way because it is simply the easiest. It requires the least amount of proof and the least amount of work. If this kind of feature were to be implemented then we would likely see other types of dispute scams.

I would also argue that paypal would likely charge more then 1% for this kind of feature. They would need to keep an audit-able log of each time they talk to someone. I would say that it would take, at minimum 5 mines for the agent to verify that they are in fact speaking to the customer and verify that the customer authorizes the transaction. I think that most paypal transactions are relatively small (<$100) so I don't think that paypal would want to be making this little on something that cannot be done with automation.

Another issue is that I believe that the FCRA (fair credit reporting act) allows people to dispute credit transactions after the fact. If a customer was to successfully dispute a transaction that could not be reversed to the seller then paypal would have to take the loss.  

You're right. It would definitely be more than 1%. I'd think of it more like Unauthorized Protection - But like you said other disputes require more work and don't have as high chance of winning. I'd say the system would be better overall.

Whole process can be automated pretty easily.
1. Email verification can be automated. Lots of scammers don't have access to PayPal email.
2. Phone verification. Text to phone. Done.
3. Security questions. The ones you need to pass when signing up for Coinbase. If they fail, seller can make decision whether to proceed.

Coinbase already does all these and I never spoke to Coinbase once on the phone.


TADA! All automated and much safer. After "authorization" is established it's actually pretty easy if they have eBay username. You can just go by feedback.

Regarding the whole unauthorized transaction situation, I think it's ridiculous the seller should ever be liable for unauthorized transactions because PayPal has all the information to do this verification not the seller. (Including IP addresses.)

1 and 2 - This would not stop people from saying that their account was hacked and an attacker was able to access the email and 2FA device.

1 - If someone were to hack into someone's paypal email then they could perform a password reset on the paypal account (AFAIK), making this option moot.

2 - This would work, but how would paypal verify your identity when you change phone numbers, or if your phone were to be shutoff because of non-payment? You could potentially be shut out from your money because of this. Another issue is that this would need to be opted in by the buyer, so if the buyer does not opt in then the seller would not benefit from the feature. AFAIK paypal does not offer a way to only do business with accounts with certain security features (they would likely not do this either due to, among other things, security concerns).

2 and 3 - Paypal would have the issue of fake paypal sites that could pretend to be paypal, get your login credentials, then ask for your 2fa and/or security questions then forward you to the actual paypal site. This is what the fake blockchain.info sites do when they try to trick users into putting their identifier and password into the fake site, they actually open their wallet but the coins are transferred out shortly thereafter.

3 - You have the same issue of the buyer needing to opt in but is protecting the seller as above. Having these questions would also not resolve the issue of the fact that paypal would likely not force users to answer these security questions prior to every transaction, it would likely be only once to verify one's identity.

1, 2, and 3 - The current system generally works for paypal as the majority of paypal transactions go through without any issue. It is only with bitcoin related transactions that paypal is not good for (not "only" but it is one of the larger struggles). With a shipped good, it is easy to document that the item was actually shipped to the customer's house, and if so then even if the transaction was unauthorized, paypal could have the customer ship the goods back to the merchant to be reimbursed. It is much more difficult to prove that the customer received any kind of digital goods, and the fact that bitcoin cannot be reversed makes it even more complicated (in theory a digital license could be revoked in the event of a chargeback). 

[virtualfaqs]

I had talked about this before and every seller should be able to pay an additional fee of 1% to prevent all unauthorized transactions. This will solve 99% of all chargebacks. PayPal then calls up the buyer and verifies the buyer made the transaction. Seller has absolutely no responsibility for unauthorized transactions. Seller still has to deal with "not sending disputes" and "description not matches."

But the majority of scams are the unauthorized.

I would say that unauthorized scams are that way because it is simply the easiest. It requires the least amount of proof and the least amount of work. If this kind of feature were to be implemented then we would likely see other types of dispute scams.

I would also argue that paypal would likely charge more then 1% for this kind of feature. They would need to keep an audit-able log of each time they talk to someone. I would say that it would take, at minimum 5 mines for the agent to verify that they are in fact speaking to the customer and verify that the customer authorizes the transaction. I think that most paypal transactions are relatively small (<$100) so I don't think that paypal would want to be making this little on something that cannot be done with automation.

Another issue is that I believe that the FCRA (fair credit reporting act) allows people to dispute credit transactions after the fact. If a customer was to successfully dispute a transaction that could not be reversed to the seller then paypal would have to take the loss.  

You're right. It would definitely be more than 1%. I'd think of it more like Unauthorized Protection - But like you said other disputes require more work and don't have as high chance of winning. I'd say the system would be better overall.

Whole process can be automated pretty easily.
1. Email verification can be automated. Lots of scammers don't have access to PayPal email.
2. Phone verification. Text to phone. Done.
3. Security questions. The ones you need to pass when signing up for Coinbase. If they fail, seller can make decision whether to proceed.

Coinbase already does all these and I never spoke to Coinbase once on the phone.


TADA! All automated and much safer. After "authorization" is established it's actually pretty easy if they have eBay username. You can just go by feedback.

Regarding the whole unauthorized transaction situation, I think it's ridiculous the seller should ever be liable for unauthorized transactions because PayPal has all the information to do this verification not the seller. (Including IP addresses.)

1 and 2 - This would not stop people from saying that their account was hacked and an attacker was able to access the email and 2FA device.

1 - If someone were to hack into someone's paypal email then they could perform a password reset on the paypal account (AFAIK), making this option moot.

2 - This would work, but how would paypal verify your identity when you change phone numbers, or if your phone were to be shutoff because of non-payment? You could potentially be shut out from your money because of this. Another issue is that this would need to be opted in by the buyer, so if the buyer does not opt in then the seller would not benefit from the feature. AFAIK paypal does not offer a way to only do business with accounts with certain security features (they would likely not do this either due to, among other things, security concerns).

2 and 3 - Paypal would have the issue of fake paypal sites that could pretend to be paypal, get your login credentials, then ask for your 2fa and/or security questions then forward you to the actual paypal site. This is what the fake blockchain.info sites do when they try to trick users into putting their identifier and password into the fake site, they actually open their wallet but the coins are transferred out shortly thereafter.

3 - You have the same issue of the buyer needing to opt in but is protecting the seller as above. Having these questions would also not resolve the issue of the fact that paypal would likely not force users to answer these security questions prior to every transaction, it would likely be only once to verify one's identity.

1, 2, and 3 - The current system generally works for paypal as the majority of paypal transactions go through without any issue. It is only with bitcoin related transactions that paypal is not good for (not "only" but it is one of the larger struggles). With a shipped good, it is easy to document that the item was actually shipped to the customer's house, and if so then even if the transaction was unauthorized, paypal could have the customer ship the goods back to the merchant to be reimbursed. It is much more difficult to prove that the customer received any kind of digital goods, and the fact that bitcoin cannot be reversed makes it even more complicated (in theory a digital license could be revoked in the event of a chargeback).  

1. Nothing's foolproof. But you'd be surprised how many "buyers" couldn't do a simple email verification when I was selling BTC on eBay.

2. Back when I was doing business on PayPal with intangible goods, I'd require all buyers to send a phone number to contact them. Scammers are usually shy to accept phone calls. I'd then match the phone number area code to make sure the address state was the same. If not, I'd start asking questions. Tricks like asking to speak to "Mr. Shoobitz" to make sure a kid's dad was aware their kid was making "authorized" purchases on PayPal.

3. PayPal might not offer the option of security questions again. But it should be an option to require it. If I had a payment system, I'd let the seller choose how much protection and charge for each one. Their security questions are crazy tough. Your first cellphone number and cars you used to own. Old addresses.

Intangible goods started way before BTC - MMORPG accounts and goods, Digital codes, digital services, website design, graphic design.

I think a good first step if PayPal uses the blockchain as proof. Then we can at least establish delivery. Right BTC address is a whole different monster. PayPal could make a great escrow for digital currency. Lots of options that I believe PayPal won't take.

$1 for email verification. $1 for phone verification. $5 for security questions. $20 or 5% for unauthorized protection whichever is higher!

[InwardContour]

I had talked about this before and every seller should be able to pay an additional fee of 1% to prevent all unauthorized transactions. This will solve 99% of all chargebacks. PayPal then calls up the buyer and verifies the buyer made the transaction. Seller has absolutely no responsibility for unauthorized transactions. Seller still has to deal with "not sending disputes" and "description not matches."

But the majority of scams are the unauthorized.

I would say that unauthorized scams are that way because it is simply the easiest. It requires the least amount of proof and the least amount of work. If this kind of feature were to be implemented then we would likely see other types of dispute scams.

I would also argue that paypal would likely charge more then 1% for this kind of feature. They would need to keep an audit-able log of each time they talk to someone. I would say that it would take, at minimum 5 mines for the agent to verify that they are in fact speaking to the customer and verify that the customer authorizes the transaction. I think that most paypal transactions are relatively small (<$100) so I don't think that paypal would want to be making this little on something that cannot be done with automation.

Another issue is that I believe that the FCRA (fair credit reporting act) allows people to dispute credit transactions after the fact. If a customer was to successfully dispute a transaction that could not be reversed to the seller then paypal would have to take the loss.  

You're right. It would definitely be more than 1%. I'd think of it more like Unauthorized Protection - But like you said other disputes require more work and don't have as high chance of winning. I'd say the system would be better overall.

Whole process can be automated pretty easily.
1. Email verification can be automated. Lots of scammers don't have access to PayPal email.
2. Phone verification. Text to phone. Done.
3. Security questions. The ones you need to pass when signing up for Coinbase. If they fail, seller can make decision whether to proceed.

Coinbase already does all these and I never spoke to Coinbase once on the phone.


TADA! All automated and much safer. After "authorization" is established it's actually pretty easy if they have eBay username. You can just go by feedback.

Regarding the whole unauthorized transaction situation, I think it's ridiculous the seller should ever be liable for unauthorized transactions because PayPal has all the information to do this verification not the seller. (Including IP addresses.)

1 and 2 - This would not stop people from saying that their account was hacked and an attacker was able to access the email and 2FA device.

1 - If someone were to hack into someone's paypal email then they could perform a password reset on the paypal account (AFAIK), making this option moot.

2 - This would work, but how would paypal verify your identity when you change phone numbers, or if your phone were to be shutoff because of non-payment? You could potentially be shut out from your money because of this. Another issue is that this would need to be opted in by the buyer, so if the buyer does not opt in then the seller would not benefit from the feature. AFAIK paypal does not offer a way to only do business with accounts with certain security features (they would likely not do this either due to, among other things, security concerns).

2 and 3 - Paypal would have the issue of fake paypal sites that could pretend to be paypal, get your login credentials, then ask for your 2fa and/or security questions then forward you to the actual paypal site. This is what the fake blockchain.info sites do when they try to trick users into putting their identifier and password into the fake site, they actually open their wallet but the coins are transferred out shortly thereafter.

3 - You have the same issue of the buyer needing to opt in but is protecting the seller as above. Having these questions would also not resolve the issue of the fact that paypal would likely not force users to answer these security questions prior to every transaction, it would likely be only once to verify one's identity.

1, 2, and 3 - The current system generally works for paypal as the majority of paypal transactions go through without any issue. It is only with bitcoin related transactions that paypal is not good for (not "only" but it is one of the larger struggles). With a shipped good, it is easy to document that the item was actually shipped to the customer's house, and if so then even if the transaction was unauthorized, paypal could have the customer ship the goods back to the merchant to be reimbursed. It is much more difficult to prove that the customer received any kind of digital goods, and the fact that bitcoin cannot be reversed makes it even more complicated (in theory a digital license could be revoked in the event of a chargeback).  

2. Back when I was doing business on PayPal with intangible goods, I'd require all buyers to send a phone number to contact them. Scammers are usually shy to accept phone calls. I'd then match the phone number area code to make sure the address state was the same. If not, I'd start asking questions. Tricks like asking to speak to "Mr. Shoobitz" to make sure a kid's dad was aware their kid was making "authorized" purchases on PayPal.

With people having cell phones more and using landlines less, it is becoming more common for people to have a telephone number whose area code does not match the "local area code" to which they live.

I do agree with you that many scammers do not want to speak on the phone. I think they are afraid of being recorded making some kind of promise they do not intend on keeping.

Although these are not bad idea, I would doubt that paypal would implement any of them as they would likely somewhat irritate and inconvenience their buyers, who are really their more powerful customers.

Prior to bitcoin, merchants/sellers had little alternative to selling with paypal as paypal was really the option for instant internet purchases. Buyers on the other hand buyers can easily use credit cards to make online purchases, while it would be very difficult for many paypal merchants have too little sales for using a merchant services credit card processor to make sense.   

[Seretonin]

I HATE PAYPAL! - PAYPALSUCKS.COM[/b]

Paypal ripped me off for over $3,000 and stop a honest money flow that I built up from $10 a day to $1,000 a day within a week. They locked my account and asked for me to explain. I sent them the biggest email I ever sent and explained from the day I got my first computer up to how I was making that money.

They sent me an automated reply just saying my account is closed for good and they held $1,900 of mine for over 6 months (then they did pay me)

But In all the payments I got that week I never had a chargeback, refund request or any problems from the buyers and when my account got locked, I had hundreds of emails of people saying "I am trying to buy but your paypal is locked...are you a scammer?"

Oh that made me so damn mad (at paypal) that I sent them a very bad email and they sent the cops to my house...to make sure I was not on my way to HQ like I said I was. That was years ago and I have moved on from that but that was a million dollar Idea that only crashed because paypal did not want to work with me...while at the same time they let facebook sell poker chips (in the hold poker game) for paypal or any game credits for paypal and thats against the paypal rules too!


FUCK PAYPAL!

The sad thing is this isn't even an isolated incident. This kind of crap happens constantly.

[Gladdy]

I HATE PAYPAL! - PAYPALSUCKS.COM[/b]

Paypal ripped me off for over $3,000 and stop a honest money flow that I built up from $10 a day to $1,000 a day within a week. They locked my account and asked for me to explain. I sent them the biggest email I ever sent and explained from the day I got my first computer up to how I was making that money.

They sent me an automated reply just saying my account is closed for good and they held $1,900 of mine for over 6 months (then they did pay me)

But In all the payments I got that week I never had a chargeback, refund request or any problems from the buyers and when my account got locked, I had hundreds of emails of people saying "I am trying to buy but your paypal is locked...are you a scammer?"

Oh that made me so damn mad (at paypal) that I sent them a very bad email and they sent the cops to my house...to make sure I was not on my way to HQ like I said I was. That was years ago and I have moved on from that but that was a million dollar Idea that only crashed because paypal did not want to work with me...while at the same time they let facebook sell poker chips (in the hold poker game) for paypal or any game credits for paypal and thats against the paypal rules too!


FUCK PAYPAL!

The sad thing is this isn't even an isolated incident. This kind of crap happens constantly.

Wow , you are selling BTC for paypal and they lock you ?

[asimoshe]

I would imagine that the purchase on ebay would be made in terms of USD.  At the moment of purchase, the BTC equivalent would be locked in and immediate payment would be required.

Makes sense

[InwardContour]

I HATE PAYPAL! - PAYPALSUCKS.COM[/b]

Paypal ripped me off for over $3,000 and stop a honest money flow that I built up from $10 a day to $1,000 a day within a week. They locked my account and asked for me to explain. I sent them the biggest email I ever sent and explained from the day I got my first computer up to how I was making that money.

They sent me an automated reply just saying my account is closed for good and they held $1,900 of mine for over 6 months (then they did pay me)

But In all the payments I got that week I never had a chargeback, refund request or any problems from the buyers and when my account got locked, I had hundreds of emails of people saying "I am trying to buy but your paypal is locked...are you a scammer?"

Oh that made me so damn mad (at paypal) that I sent them a very bad email and they sent the cops to my house...to make sure I was not on my way to HQ like I said I was. That was years ago and I have moved on from that but that was a million dollar Idea that only crashed because paypal did not want to work with me...while at the same time they let facebook sell poker chips (in the hold poker game) for paypal or any game credits for paypal and thats against the paypal rules too!


FUCK PAYPAL!

The sad thing is this isn't even an isolated incident. This kind of crap happens constantly.

Paypal does not like people using it to sell digital products. AFAIK it is against their TOS to sell digital products via paypal.

[allthingsluxury]

I HATE PAYPAL! - PAYPALSUCKS.COM[/b]

Paypal ripped me off for over $3,000 and stop a honest money flow that I built up from $10 a day to $1,000 a day within a week. They locked my account and asked for me to explain. I sent them the biggest email I ever sent and explained from the day I got my first computer up to how I was making that money.

They sent me an automated reply just saying my account is closed for good and they held $1,900 of mine for over 6 months (then they did pay me)

But In all the payments I got that week I never had a chargeback, refund request or any problems from the buyers and when my account got locked, I had hundreds of emails of people saying "I am trying to buy but your paypal is locked...are you a scammer?"

Oh that made me so damn mad (at paypal) that I sent them a very bad email and they sent the cops to my house...to make sure I was not on my way to HQ like I said I was. That was years ago and I have moved on from that but that was a million dollar Idea that only crashed because paypal did not want to work with me...while at the same time they let facebook sell poker chips (in the hold poker game) for paypal or any game credits for paypal and thats against the paypal rules too!


FUCK PAYPAL!

The sad thing is this isn't even an isolated incident. This kind of crap happens constantly.

Wow , you are selling BTC for paypal and they lock you ?

This happens. Sadly.

[InwardContour]

I HATE PAYPAL! - PAYPALSUCKS.COM[/b]

Paypal ripped me off for over $3,000 and stop a honest money flow that I built up from $10 a day to $1,000 a day within a week. They locked my account and asked for me to explain. I sent them the biggest email I ever sent and explained from the day I got my first computer up to how I was making that money.

They sent me an automated reply just saying my account is closed for good and they held $1,900 of mine for over 6 months (then they did pay me)

But In all the payments I got that week I never had a chargeback, refund request or any problems from the buyers and when my account got locked, I had hundreds of emails of people saying "I am trying to buy but your paypal is locked...are you a scammer?"

Oh that made me so damn mad (at paypal) that I sent them a very bad email and they sent the cops to my house...to make sure I was not on my way to HQ like I said I was. That was years ago and I have moved on from that but that was a million dollar Idea that only crashed because paypal did not want to work with me...while at the same time they let facebook sell poker chips (in the hold poker game) for paypal or any game credits for paypal and thats against the paypal rules too!


FUCK PAYPAL!

The sad thing is this isn't even an isolated incident. This kind of crap happens constantly.

Wow , you are selling BTC for paypal and they lock you ?

This happens. Sadly.

Receiving funds in exchange for digital goods is against the paypal tos

[Djo]

I can`t wait to see Paypal integrate the bitcoin community.
I know it will happen, just a matter of time.

[virtualfaqs]

I HATE PAYPAL! - PAYPALSUCKS.COM[/b]

Paypal ripped me off for over $3,000 and stop a honest money flow that I built up from $10 a day to $1,000 a day within a week. They locked my account and asked for me to explain. I sent them the biggest email I ever sent and explained from the day I got my first computer up to how I was making that money.

They sent me an automated reply just saying my account is closed for good and they held $1,900 of mine for over 6 months (then they did pay me)

But In all the payments I got that week I never had a chargeback, refund request or any problems from the buyers and when my account got locked, I had hundreds of emails of people saying "I am trying to buy but your paypal is locked...are you a scammer?"

Oh that made me so damn mad (at paypal) that I sent them a very bad email and they sent the cops to my house...to make sure I was not on my way to HQ like I said I was. That was years ago and I have moved on from that but that was a million dollar Idea that only crashed because paypal did not want to work with me...while at the same time they let facebook sell poker chips (in the hold poker game) for paypal or any game credits for paypal and thats against the paypal rules too!


FUCK PAYPAL!

The sad thing is this isn't even an isolated incident. This kind of crap happens constantly.

Wow , you are selling BTC for paypal and they lock you ?

This happens. Sadly.

Receiving funds in exchange for digital goods is against the paypal tos

You are allowed to sell intangible goods on PayPal. Selling Bitcoin is also ok under eBay now.

[BtcGains]

I would never even consider using PayPal with my BTC
Good way to get hacked, account frozen, charge backed, etc

[2dogs]

I would never even consider using PayPal with my BTC
Good way to get hacked, account frozen, charge backed, etc

Exactly! and don't forget about the fees paypal will gladly charge you for the "convenience of their services"   .

[lamia85]

I would think that ebay and paypal would just use the same method to curb scamming that they use now temporarily on new users, where the funds are not released to your account until the goods have arrived at the buyer's address through a tracked shipment or expected arrival date. I see them simply requiring a similar or a manual confirmation for all BTC transactions in perpetuity.

I would never even consider using PayPal with my BTC
Good way to get hacked, account frozen, charge backed, etc

Also/more so I see papal allowing you to fill your paypal balance with BTC that is in turn converted to your native currency for your paypal balance. Which if so could become the easy way to convert BTC to fiat in your checking account.

[Denise520]

I wonder if it will happen.

[LiteCoinGuy]

I would never even consider using PayPal with my BTC
Good way to get hacked, account frozen, charge backed, etc

Exactly! and don't forget about the fees paypal will gladly charge you for the "convenience of their services"   .

yeah i love it. ebay fees + paypal fees = 20 %

[InwardContour]

I HATE PAYPAL! - PAYPALSUCKS.COM[/b]

Paypal ripped me off for over $3,000 and stop a honest money flow that I built up from $10 a day to $1,000 a day within a week. They locked my account and asked for me to explain. I sent them the biggest email I ever sent and explained from the day I got my first computer up to how I was making that money.

They sent me an automated reply just saying my account is closed for good and they held $1,900 of mine for over 6 months (then they did pay me)

But In all the payments I got that week I never had a chargeback, refund request or any problems from the buyers and when my account got locked, I had hundreds of emails of people saying "I am trying to buy but your paypal is locked...are you a scammer?"

Oh that made me so damn mad (at paypal) that I sent them a very bad email and they sent the cops to my house...to make sure I was not on my way to HQ like I said I was. That was years ago and I have moved on from that but that was a million dollar Idea that only crashed because paypal did not want to work with me...while at the same time they let facebook sell poker chips (in the hold poker game) for paypal or any game credits for paypal and thats against the paypal rules too!


FUCK PAYPAL!

The sad thing is this isn't even an isolated incident. This kind of crap happens constantly.

Wow , you are selling BTC for paypal and they lock you ?

This happens. Sadly.

Receiving funds in exchange for digital goods is against the paypal tos

You are allowed to sell intangible goods on PayPal. Selling Bitcoin is also ok under eBay now.

Is this a change to paypal TOS?

I knew that ebay was allowing bitcoin and bitcoin related products to be sold on their site, but I thought that it was still not allowed on paypal (there are even a few threads about this)

[keithers]

For all the hate that paypal gets, they have definitely been a game changer in making online payments easier.