[ANN] Premine (PMC) Swap to PreminePlus (PMP)

[bluedude]

I think PMP had or even has a chance... but it can't survive forks, transaction reversals, changes of plans etc... I really believed that. I also believed the STRENGTH of PMP was the PMC people who stuck it out until now.... yes, the RICH people who swapped.... That was the rub... TMX thought the rich people would just dump and ruin the coin... I argued the exact opposite... This coin was innovative in the sense it grew out of the original innovation created by creditcoin_CRD i.e "why not simply premine it all and give it away". AND it was to move to a "staking fortransaction fees" model, which also would have been one of a kind... But there is NO WAY PMP will survive someone who keeps changing plans in mid step. I thought I made this 100 percent clear as vodka, but apparently my opinion counts for NOTHING.... so thats it...

Sad to see PMC end like this. This is not what this nice concept deserved.

The dev needed the community to raise funds for creating the wallet and once its done
the community should follow his terms.Nice one

[quasimodo]

I think PMP had or even has a chance... but it can't survive forks, transaction reversals, changes of plans etc... I really believed that. I also believed the STRENGTH of PMP was the PMC people who stuck it out until now.... yes, the RICH people who swapped.... That was the rub... TMX thought the rich people would just dump and ruin the coin... I argued the exact opposite... This coin was innovative in the sense it grew out of the original innovation created by creditcoin_CRD i.e "why not simply premine it all and give it away". AND it was to move to a "staking fortransaction fees" model, which also would have been one of a kind... But there is NO WAY PMP will survive someone who keeps changing plans in mid step. I thought I made this 100 percent clear as vodka, but apparently my opinion counts for NOTHING.... so thats it...

Sad to see PMC end like this. This is not what this nice concept deserved.

The dev needed the community to raise funds for creating the wallet and once its done
the community should follow his terms.Nice one

It all started well with PMP. But then TMX has decided everything alone and the PMP has changed to the TMXcoin.

[kbroadfoot]

An aside:

Take a look at this:

http://latium.cc/?a_aid=53c69178eb5b5

( yes it is a referral link )

A new POS coin with a very unusual distribution method:  i.e. Network Marketing...

( please use my referal link, or not )

The idea is to reward those who spread the word. ( it is FREE however )

The remain coins after the distribution period will be destroyed..

They are already on Bittrex... It took awhile but I see the wisdom in this... targeting network marketers to spread the coin...

[TheMightyX]

Wow, not sure where to start with all these spirited, but misguided, messages.  

I'll try to clear up the FUD in one post but before I do I'd like to say a few things.

hey Bergman? fuck you, I'll get to your post last.

Please note I do not follow this thread though so I'm sorry if my responses seem a bit late.
Any single one of you could have contacted me via BTCtalk or talked to me on the IRC which I've had open and online for the past 2-3 weeks, 24/7. instead of whining and causing FUD which will end up hurting everyone, including yourself.

EcuaMobi, I've already apologized to you. Benezivas, I am deeply sorry for not including you in the newsletter. The reason for this is quite simple. You "redacted your name by request" in the swap excel list.
I took the user list directly from the Swap list (hence the spelling mistake in iGoodw1n's name prevented him from getting the first newsletter, and the case sensitive issue preventing EcuaMobi from getting both the first and the second). Even EcuaMobi, who got neither newsletter, though condemning the lack of communication, has grudgingly admitted it was the right thing to do given the situation. Even Yogibaer, who is a pretty vocal supporter of a 1:1 swap ratio, after hearing what I'm about to tell you now agrees with the course of action.

And the situation was my fault, yes. It was a lack of oversight which I am trying to correct. This lack of oversight caused all PMC holders to get 3x their initial agreed upon amount.
Heres what happened and heres why your 3:1 swap is actually the same amount as the 1:1 we initially agreed upon.

From the original plan that was presented, may 26.
Bolded/red relevant part.

The idea was not to grant any existing PMC holders any NEW PMC, just exchanging their current PMC1 for PMC2 so they could continue on. This was to make it fair for new members joining the community. Most people here have less than 500 PMC. As well, we can also see that the value of PMC will be diluted initially. The max coins of PMC1 is 500,000. Where as PMC2's max coins will have to be as high as 1.5 to 2 million.

That was part of the original plan I presented to the community and we agreed upon.
When I said 1:1 it came with the original understanding that they (new community) would get 1 or 1.5 million.
If we reduce their share we have to reduce our share to keep the ratio intact, or else we are just fucking stealing.

We would set aside 500k for us, and 1 or 1.5 million for them.
We've now cut down the max coins, effectively reducing their share from 1 or 1.5 million to 500,000 (but not reducing our own at all!) oops!
This is a 50% or 66.66% reduction (a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio).


500k of 1.5 or 2 million is 33.33% or 25%, this was our Premine for swapping.
That was the deal I presented, that's where your 1:1 comes from.
You get 1:1 if they get 1.5 or 2 million. Rather than inconvenience them with upping the max coins and causing panic for 800 people. I thought I could rely on the PMC community to be mature, understand the facts and reduce their coins to fix the issue.

Heres the key, I need you to follow this very closely:
Whether you get 7000 PMP (1:1) of 2 million max coins (500k swap/1.5m giveaway) or 2300 PMP (3:1) of 666.66k (166.6k swap/ 500k giveaway)
You are getting the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF COINS PROPORTIONAL TO THE MAX COINS!
If you have 12,000 PMP of 2 million or 4,000 PMP of 666.66k you still have 0.006% of all coins!!!
Your number of coins doesn't matter! Your stake is exactly the same!

What you don't seem to understand is if we keep the 1:1 swap and reduce the max coins for them but not for us, then that 1:1 is actually not 100% of your coins, because we reduced the max coins not-proportionally, 1:1 is actually 300% stake.

Heres the basic math for you again:
500k swap / 1.5m giveaway = .33
166.66 swap / 500k giveaway = .33
500k swap / 500k giveaway = 1 (three times the original agreed upon amount)



Yes I should have noticed the error sooner, should that have changed your mind? No, because you are getting the same amount of coins you are supposed to get, regardless of the max coins.
So thats the deal, theres your proof.

Why did I make this ridiculously easy mistake?
see:

Could everyone stop with all the "we need to ... " and instead start doing that?

I agree. I think TheMightyX should just start the development of a new POS coin with 1.000.000 premined coins. I would also suggest having a mandatory transaction fee of at least 0.0001PMC+.

We can discuss how the premined coins will be distributed during development.

This is where the 1,000,000 million number came from, it was meant to be changed later and I got busy with so many other things I forgot all about it.
The only number that was really important to my designs was the ratio of swap to giveaway coins. and because I forgot all about changing the 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 the natural solution was not to panic the 800 new people and change it on the PMC side.

Thanks for everyone freaking the fuck out though, thats doing wonders for the coin.  

If anyone even thinks of uttering the words "we deserve 1:1" after all of this, I will go batshit insane.
You are getting the same damn amount of stake, because we've reduced the max coins by the same amount we've reduced your stupid coins.
I'll cross-post in the launch thread.

[kingscrown]

ok that clarifies this a bit but what about instead of giving us back PMC you would just do PMPx and exchange PMP to PMPx. ie im not sure i still have my PMC wallet.

[TheMightyX]

ok that clarifies this a bit but what about instead of giving us back PMC you would just do PMPx and exchange PMP to PMPx. ie im not sure i still have my PMC wallet.

I'm not sure what you are referring to?
I've already proven that no one is losing anything, whether you had 1200 then and only 400 now, all coins were reduced. Everyone gets the same % of stake that they had before the reduction... I thought that was quite clear.
Why would I give back PMC? that doesn't make sense. First of all I can't, as its been burned, second of all why would I even if I could?
And why would there be a PMPx?
I think maybe you missed the point dude  


Also, funny thing I found... hey Benezivas, do you remember this?

I don't want to sound like a greedy hoarder that is fearing for the wealth of his coins, but I am a little concerned about giving away 250k coins in a short amount of time. You have to take into account that without enough people claiming these coins, this might result in few people getting a lot of coins, thus automatically lowering the base value of the coin.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for giving away all the coins in a reasonable amount of time, but this time we should ensure a wider spread of the coins and especially aim at growing the community.

so... it would have been all right to give 250k coins to ourselves in the unfair swap, in a short period of time, but not to the new community ?
It seems it would be safer to give 250k to 800+ people, than it is to give 250k to 40 or so people.
Also, is +800 members in the first month enough growth?

[EcuaMobi]

Thank you TheMightyX, it's clear now. And thanks for your work.

Now that thinks are clearer, I really think we can continue on this. We just need to work together and communicate better.

So, are we continuing this?
TheMightyX? kbroadfoot? quasimodo?



I see my name in the swap excel list is equamobi instead of EcuaMobi
(note the problem is not the case, but a 'q' instead of a 'c').

[TheMightyX]

Thank you TheMightyX, it's clear now. And thanks for your work.

Now that thinks are clearer, I really think we can continue on this. We just need to work together and communicate better.

So, are we continuing this?
TheMightyX? kbroadfoot? quasimodo?



I see my name in the swap excel list is equamobi instead of EcuaMobi
(note the problem is not the case, but a 'q' instead of a 'c').

omg... that was so simple.
So does this mean names aren't case sensitive as I originally thought?
I didn't even notice.... thanks EquaMobi!  

[quasimodo]

Wow, not sure where to start with all these spirited, but misguided, messages.  

I'll try to clear up the FUD in one post but before I do I'd like to say a few things.

hey Bergman? fuck you, I'll get to your post last.

Please note I do not follow this thread though so I'm sorry if my responses seem a bit late.
Any single one of you could have contacted me via BTCtalk or talked to me on the IRC which I've had open and online for the past 2-3 weeks, 24/7. instead of whining and causing FUD which will end up hurting everyone, including yourself.

EcuaMobi, I've already apologized to you. Benezivas, I am deeply sorry for not including you in the newsletter. The reason for this is quite simple. You "redacted your name by request" in the swap excel list.
I took the user list directly from the Swap list (hence the spelling mistake in iGoodw1n's name prevented him from getting the first newsletter, and the case sensitive issue preventing EcuaMobi from getting both the first and the second). Even EcuaMobi, who got neither newsletter, though condemning the lack of communication, has grudgingly admitted it was the right thing to do given the situation. Even Yogibaer, who is a pretty vocal supporter of a 1:1 swap ratio, after hearing what I'm about to tell you now agrees with the course of action.

And the situation was my fault, yes. It was a lack of oversight which I am trying to correct. This lack of oversight caused all PMC holders to get 3x their initial agreed upon amount.
Heres what happened and heres why your 3:1 swap is actually the same amount as the 1:1 we initially agreed upon.

From the original plan that was presented, may 26.
Bolded/red relevant part.

The idea was not to grant any existing PMC holders any NEW PMC, just exchanging their current PMC1 for PMC2 so they could continue on. This was to make it fair for new members joining the community. Most people here have less than 500 PMC. As well, we can also see that the value of PMC will be diluted initially. The max coins of PMC1 is 500,000. Where as PMC2's max coins will have to be as high as 1.5 to 2 million.

That was part of the original plan I presented to the community and we agreed upon.
When I said 1:1 it came with the original understanding that they (new community) would get 1 or 1.5 million.
If we reduce their share we have to reduce our share to keep the ratio intact, or else we are just fucking stealing.

We would set aside 500k for us, and 1 or 1.5 million for them.
We've now cut down the max coins, effectively reducing their share from 1 or 1.5 million to 500,000 (but not reducing our own at all!) oops!
This is a 50% or 66.66% reduction (a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio).


500k of 1.5 or 2 million is 33.33% or 25%, this was our Premine for swapping.
That was the deal I presented, that's where your 1:1 comes from.
You get 1:1 if they get 1.5 or 2 million. Rather than inconvenience them with upping the max coins and causing panic for 800 people. I thought I could rely on the PMC community to be mature, understand the facts and reduce their coins to fix the issue.

Heres the key, I need you to follow this very closely:
Whether you get 7000 PMP (1:1) of 2 million max coins (500k swap/1.5m giveaway) or 2300 PMP (3:1) of 666.66k (166.6k swap/ 500k giveaway)
You are getting the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF COINS PROPORTIONAL TO THE MAX COINS!
If you have 12,000 PMP of 2 million or 4,000 PMP of 666.66k you still have 0.006% of all coins!!!
Your number of coins doesn't matter! Your stake is exactly the same!

What you don't seem to understand is if we keep the 1:1 swap and reduce the max coins for them but not for us, then that 1:1 is actually not 100% of your coins, because we reduced the max coins not-proportionally, 1:1 is actually 300% stake.

Heres the basic math for you again:
500k swap / 1.5m giveaway = .33
166.66 swap / 500k giveaway = .33
500k swap / 500k giveaway = 1 (three times the original agreed upon amount)



Yes I should have noticed the error sooner, should that have changed your mind? No, because you are getting the same amount of coins you are supposed to get, regardless of the max coins.
So thats the deal, theres your proof.

Why did I make this ridiculously easy mistake?
see:

Could everyone stop with all the "we need to ... " and instead start doing that?

I agree. I think TheMightyX should just start the development of a new POS coin with 1.000.000 premined coins. I would also suggest having a mandatory transaction fee of at least 0.0001PMC+.

We can discuss how the premined coins will be distributed during development.

This is where the 1,000,000 million number came from, it was meant to be changed later and I got busy with so many other things I forgot all about it.
The only number that was really important to my designs was the ratio of swap to giveaway coins. and because I forgot all about changing the 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 the natural solution was not to panic the 800 new people and change it on the PMC side.

Thanks for everyone freaking the fuck out though, thats doing wonders for the coin.  

If anyone even thinks of uttering the words "we deserve 1:1" after all of this, I will go batshit insane.
You are getting the same damn amount of stake, because we've reduced the max coins by the same amount we've reduced your stupid coins.
I'll cross-post in the launch thread.

A new lie. TMX has written the OP. To this day, does it say: 1 Mio Coins - 500K to swap, 500k for the Giveaway. Not 166k for the swap
and 834k for the giveaway. At june 25th, day of announcement it was clear for everybody. Then TMX has changed his opinion. But nothing other has changed.

[TheMightyX]

A new lie. TMX has written the OP. To this day, does it say: 1 Mio Coins - 500K to swap, 500k for the Giveaway. Not 166k for the giveaway
and 834k for the giveaway. At june 25th, day of announcement it was clear for everybody. Then TMX has changed his opinion. But nothing other has changed.

yes, I forgot to change the max coins back.
The coin source that loljosh generated for us had 1 million max coins. As I requested, and as was suggested to "just get it" by maardien.

As I've mentioned, I got busy with other aspects of the project and forgot/didn't realize we had cut down the giveaway coins by 3:1 without reducing our swap amount until much later.

This must look so easy to you? like I just press some "make cryptocoin" button and voila! and then I speak to my computer, and it magically designs custom graphics for our threads and our wallet, etc? and I have a big team of people answering messages and contacting community members? You have no fucking idea. But you do know you deserve more. Yes, Quasimodo the great, deserves more for his imaginary tokens. More than what? he doesn't know! he just knows he deserves MORE!


You really can't stop singing this one song can you?
It's over quasi.

Get this through your head, your thick, thick head.
You do NOT get special treatment. We will NOT be cutting down the giveaway coins for the new community by 3:1 without reducing our own swap amount.
If we do this, it amounts to us taking a 50% premine.

Where does this merry-go-round end for you?
You keep bugging me? I eventually give up and give you 3x the coins everyone else gets?
really? you think we should get a 50% premine?
Is that what constitutes fair in your warped little mind?

[Bergmannx]

As I called ThemightyX an asshole, I even didn't know, that he reset the blockchain.
Doesn't surprise me at all to be honest. Spoke to people missing coins, that should be swapped and disappeared due to the reset.
One guy swapped over 5k and all he got was insults and threats by TMX.
Well, imho it doesn't really matter, if someone got coins or not, since PMC/PMP is as dead as it can be.

[TheMightyX]

As I called ThemightyX an asshole, I even didn't know, that he reset the blockchain.
Doesn't surprise me at all to be honest. Spoke to people missing coins, that should be swapped and disappeared due to the reset.
One guy swapped over 5k and all he got was insults and threats by TMX.
Well, imho it doesn't really matter, if someone got coins or not, since PMC/PMP is as dead as it can be.

If you are referring to quasimodo, he swapped 7k and he deserves more than just insults from me for being an utter asshole and being detrimental to the project.
Everyone will get their first batch of coins, as mentioned previously and in the newsletter I sent out. Unfortunately I've been too busy dealing with quasimodos bullshit to send out the first batch. So those people can thank him for that.

This is from the last newletter I sent out to the 24 ppl I had on my list.

Sorry again for the lack of communication. I can be reached in the IRC channel if anyone has any thoughts/concerns/suggestions as well as on BTCtalk. As far as I know, I'm going to be going ahead with sending out 30% of everyones swap funds starting tomorrow.
-TMX

According to your line of reasoning I'm just stealing everyones coins. Yes I put that much effort and work into this only to shoot it in the leg before it even starts. Yes that's my brilliant plan.  

The rollback was so we could implement these changes before the giveaway, because after that point we would not be able to make changes.
And if we went ahead with the giveaway and this problem wasn't fixed, everything I've worked so hard on would be for nothing. We would have an unfair currency that was doomed for failure.

Why is that so hard to understand. Some would risk destroying everything, just to have more.
Its very easy to decide to make foolish risks on something you've put absolutely no work into.
but thanks for the wild accusations, that's really doing wonders for everyone.

Because everyone knows, if you can't have your way, you might as well wreck it for everyone right?

[yogibaer]

I'm not happy with the changes but since I know why the changes had to be done I can accept this and undestand the step. Can we all go back to topic and look forward to make PMP something better than PMC was?

That'd be great!

anyway, we have nothing to lose right now ...

[Bergmannx]

Because everyone knows, if you can't have your way, you might as well wreck it for everyone right?

Do what You like, TheMightyX, but better rename to TheMightyXIV, the Sun King.
I'm out anyway, like many old followers of PMC, too.

[quasimodo]

If you are referring to quasimodo, he swapped 7k and he deserves more than just insults from me for being an utter asshole and being detrimental to the project.
Everyone will get their first batch of coins, as mentioned previously and in the newsletter I sent out. Unfortunately I've been too busy dealing with quasimodos bullshit to send out the first batch. So those people can thank him for that.

I collect your insults. I may still need them.

[quasimodo]

Dear community, I will leave you and your esteemed leader. 
I'll turn back to my precious coins and my real life.
(Yes, I have a real life). I take what I get without accepting the decision.

TMX is now on my ignore list. Since he does not even come with the most primitive rules of decency and civility, there is no need to communicate with him even longer. 
His leadership style and his strategy in solving problems have shown me the future of PMP and I will follow with pleasure the failure of PMP.
I'm sure TMX will make me then responsible. 

As an early supporter PMC I find it a shame what has become of the former Spirit.
Every community gets the leader it deserves. I wish you good luck, you will need it. But that will not save PMP. 

PS: I know that you believe you have won TMX, but you all have lost.   

[yogibaer]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=673760.msg8035354#msg8035354

2 Announcements:

Updated main page with new stable wallet release (July 23rd) for Windows
And New Mac OSX wallet (courtesy of DrMotz).
You can donate a few PMP to him to say thanks! (PVXjpQy4r7GzQht1Pkfxpq4sVfYgKY8SRG)

Yogibaer has taken over as swap manager. I have already sent him the entirety of the swap funds.
He has started sending out month 1 swap funds. Make sure your client is up to date.
For reference the Swap address is PRDri392MmNaau3cy3iiqZPm99FWCG9TRe

Will update main thread images soon with the proper breakdown amounts, to get us back to the proper and fair ratio.
I have contacted Nullu about handing over the giveaway funds. Waiting on a response.
Afterwards the community can feel secure, knowing that I won't be holding the majority of everyones coins.

As TheMightyX said, I will start sending out the swapped funds for the 1st month now. Please watch out the OP for further information. Thanks!

[Benezivas]

As TheMightyX said, I will start sending out the swapped funds for the 1st month now. Please watch out the OP for further information. Thanks!

What about coins that will be swapped from now on? If I send in new coins now, do I still get the 30% right away?

[yogibaer]

As TheMightyX said, I will start sending out the swapped funds for the 1st month now. Please watch out the OP for further information. Thanks!

What about coins that will be swapped from now on? If I send in new coins now, do I still get the 30% right away?

Good question! We didn't talk about the rules for new swaps and I do not send out new swapped PMP unless we have rules for that.
I'd suggest 30% immediately and the rest in month 2 and 3.


edit:

I only have access to the swap funds and the swap-excel list. New swaps will enter the list through a message to PMCswap. I don't have access to this account!

[Benezivas]

My PMC wallet won't synch up atm, stuck 22 hours behind.