PSA: do not agree to new COINBASE.COM terms!!!

[Xiaoxiao]

Brian Armstrong is just a much smarter / competent version of Mark Karpeles of Mtgox.  He has a degree in computer science and economics.  He has the perfect pedigree of being a mastermind at defrauding people in this new wild wild west of cryptocurrencies.

Coinbase has over 630,000 customers.  Almost all of which are happy and satisfied, but the small percentage that aren't happy or satisfied, has taken a HUGE hit.  We're not talking about $5, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars.  This "anti-fraud" "high risk transaction" algorithm that coinbase has is nothing more than an algorithm (if it's event that) made to put extra money in the pockets of the owners.

How do I know this?  Common sense.  Once a customer has verified their bank account and initiated a buy transaction, right than and there the algorithm should kick in to detect if it is "high risk" or not.  NOT 2 weeks later when the money has been taken out of the person's bank account (and then ultimately returned back to the person's bank account bc it is "high risk").  That is why there is a verification process to make sure the registered customer owns the bank account.  During those 1 - 2 weeks, coinbase is in control and can do whatever at will.  

For example, if I order 10 bitcoins at $500 each... coinbase will take out $5,000 from my verified bank account and say we will give it to you 1 -2 weeks later.  Come the date that you are supposed to receive your bitcoins, coinbase has the option of A) giving you the bitcoin like promised b) calling it a "high risk" transaction and denying you the agreed upon deal.  

Does that make sense?  If bitcoin rises to $700 each by the time you are supposed to receive your bitcoin, the obvious thing to do is to call it a "high risk" transaction.  And then after you would have a decision to make.  Do i keep the money in my bank and in hopes coinbase would reinitiate the transaction and honor the previously agreed upon deal?  Since their customer support always says in the forums "we regularly reinitiate" transactions, which is a lie.  They certainly ignore you if it is a large amount.  Some people have lost over $10,000 because of this.  A small handful of people not satisfied equates to hundreds of thousands of dollars extra in the pockets of coinbase.

Here is just a bit of info

coinbasefraud.com

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=341188.msg3655164#msg3655164

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=339882.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145797.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=339849.msg3655636#msg3655636

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=328076.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=322631.msg3454765#msg3454765

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=322229.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=321684.msg3450929#msg3450929

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=328013.msg3531406#msg3531406

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=328013.msg3526610#msg3526610

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=338172.msg3627572#msg3627572

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/14195/did-i-just-get-defrauded-by-coinbase


Ok here is some proof with screenshots:

















What the heck?  Are you serious?  You guys aren't even on the same page.  Also the funds have automatically been sent back to my bank before you guys replied to me.  This incident has pretty much ruined my holidays and reputation with friends/family.  I was in school and it affected my grades.  By the time I could purchase bitcoin again, the price had ballooned to like $600.


By the way Brian, I know you guys know who I am, because I've chatted with Olaf who has refused to reinitate the agreed upon transactions from OCTOBER (yes october lol), because the "window for restarting the purchase" is closed."  

If anything happens to me or my family/friends, it is obviously you.  I've told my family / friends all about this.  Yes I am a threat to your operation and all those that have invested money in you.

You can rectify everything by showing that "anti-fraud algorithm" for the experts to take a look at.  But who knows, you might have already covered your tracks.

[Lauda]

If you think that you're right, go ahead and try suing. Have fun 

[medUSA]

What you are saying is Coinbase do not honour buy/sell orders? I have never used Coinbase before, their policy does sound a bit odd. You links are all from 2013. Are there any recent ones in 2014?

[Xiaoxiao]

What you are saying is Coinbase do not honour buy/sell orders? I have never used Coinbase before, their policy does sound a bit odd. You links are all from 2013. Are there any recent ones in 2014?

Not too many from 2014, because the price of bitcoin hasn't bubbled in 2014.  But watch, if there is another bubble this will continue to happen, unless coinbase has been "full" from all the money it's eaten from people.

[Xiaoxiao]

By the way Brian, I know you guys know who I am, because I've chatted with Olaf who has refused to reinitate the agreed upon transactions from OCTOBER (yes october lol), because the "window for restarting the purchase" is closed."  

If anything happens to me or my family/friends, it is obviously you.  I've told my family / friends all about this.  Yes I am a threat to your operation and all those that have invested money in you.

You can rectify everything by showing that "anti-fraud algorithm" for the experts to take a look at.  But who knows, you might have already covered your tracks.

[franky1]

in your example you say they dont honour deals. but if the $5000 is returned to you. there is no criminal act.

its like going to a bar and them telling you that they wont serve you. this is not breaking the law, to refuse service. as long as your not out of pocket. as that is then theft if they do not hand you bitcoins or $5000.

in which case i would ask you to first get a debt collection agency involved. and then if no positive result, get a court involved.
i say this because if you got a court involved first, the result would be the court palms it off to a debt recovery company anyways. but by doing the cheap option of debt recovery first. you can then use that in court later as evidence they refuse refund/compensation. and the court would then look into other punishment = jailtime.

this saves money, avoids going around in legal circles(time wasting) and gets the court to offer them a larger punishment

[Xiaoxiao]

in your example you say they dont honour deals. but if the $5000 is returned to you. there is no criminal act.

its like going to a bar and them telling you that they wont serve you. this is not breaking the law, to refuse service. as long as your not out of pocket. as that is then theft if they do not hand you bitcoins or $5000.

in which case i would ask you to first get a debt collection agency involved. and then if no positive result, get a court involved.
i say this because if you got a court involved first, the result would be the court palms it off to a debt recovery company anyways. but by doing the cheap option of debt recovery first. you can then use that in court later as evidence they refuse refund/compensation. and the court would then look into other punishment = jailtime.

this saves money, avoids going around in legal circles(time wasting) and gets the court to offer them a larger punishment

The deal is that we agreed to exchange my $5000 for their 10 bitcoins.  That is the deal.  They take your $5000 and wait (1 -2 weeks ) to see if they want to give you the 10 bitcoins or not.  If they don't want to give you the 10 bitcoins, they will obviously return the $5000. 

[franky1]

in your example you say they dont honour deals. but if the $5000 is returned to you. there is no criminal act.

its like going to a bar and them telling you that they wont serve you. this is not breaking the law, to refuse service. as long as your not out of pocket. as that is then theft if they do not hand you bitcoins or $5000.

in which case i would ask you to first get a debt collection agency involved. and then if no positive result, get a court involved.
i say this because if you got a court involved first, the result would be the court palms it off to a debt recovery company anyways. but by doing the cheap option of debt recovery first. you can then use that in court later as evidence they refuse refund/compensation. and the court would then look into other punishment = jailtime.

this saves money, avoids going around in legal circles(time wasting) and gets the court to offer them a larger punishment

The deal is that we agreed to exchange my $5000 for their 10 bitcoins.  That is the deal.  They take your $5000 and wait (1 -2 weeks ) to see if they want to give you the 10 bitcoins or not.  If they don't want to give you the 10 bitcoins, they will obviously return the $5000.  

no crime... just a rescindication of contract, (refund).

its much like you pay for something online, wait 2 weeks for delivery, notice its not what you wanted or its broke and ask to return it for a refund.. all contracts have by law to offer a period to allow the parties to cancel a contract if unhappy.. as long as your initial payment is returned, then your not out of pocket.

yes i understand coinbase had over a week to play with your money and profit from it. but if for instance you bought a miner, mined for 5 days and then complained it didnt work and wanted to return the miner.. should the company call you a criminal.. no.. as long as the payments that initiated the contract are returned and no one is at loss.. there is no crime.

but if anyone ever has it where funds are not returned, follow advice in my last post. debt collection first, then court.. you will thank me later by doing it in that order

[theecoinomist]

It sounds like you got burned. Don't bother with pseudo-exchanges, use Kraken next time and you'll be fine.

[Minecache]

It sounds like you got burned. Don't bother with pseudo-exchanges, use Kraken next time and you'll be fine.

What he said.

I've used Kraken a few times myself and very happy with their service.

[ljudotina]

I don't get it...how are they stealing if they refund what you sent to them?

[medUSA]

I don't get it...how are they stealing if they refund what you sent to them?

OP is suggesting people lost profits on a bitcoin rally because Coinbase do not honour the purchase orders. It is similar to a gambling site invalidating a bet after the bet has won.

[Xiaoxiao]

I don't get it...how are they stealing if they refund what you sent to them?

OP is suggesting people lost profits on a bitcoin rally because Coinbase do not honour the purchase orders. It is similar to a gambling site invalidating a bet after the bet has won.

good analogy

[franky1]

I don't get it...how are they stealing if they refund what you sent to them?

OP is suggesting people lost profits on a bitcoin rally because Coinbase do not honour the purchase orders. It is similar to a gambling site invalidating a bet after the bet has won.

good analogy

should have bought miners for $5k mined them for a week, then asked to return them for a refund..

[siameze]

Aside from buying, I don't see what all the fuss is about coinbase. You don't have posession of your private keys there, do you?

[leopard2]

An exchange should take the money and convert it to BTC, period. If they have AMLKYC crap they should publish the requirements and apply to new accounts BEFORE money is transferred.

Accepting money and then doing this kind of shit is utterly inacceptable and I would shove a Jalapeno up my arse before doing business with a place like that. 

[brian_23452]

Obviously, if Coinbase is allowing transactions to go through when BTC goes down in value, and not allowing transactions to go through when BTC goes up in value, that would be scammy.  With that said, I am not at all convinced that they do, and OP has offered no evidence to back up his accusation.

Coinbase has over 630,000 customers.  Almost all of which are happy and satisfied, but the small percentage that aren't happy or satisfied, has taken a HUGE hit.  We're not talking about $5, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars.  This "anti-fraud" "high risk transaction" algorithm that coinbase has is nothing more than an algorithm (if it's event that) made to put extra money in the pockets of the owners.

Obviously, every single organization in existence of any appreciable size has some amount of customers that are not happy.  This is life. 

How do I know this?  Common sense.

Ah, common sense.  This is one of those things someone says when they make a wild assertion, but don't have any proof.  If they had proof, they would provide it.  Since they don't, they just claim it is common sense.  Your claim it is large orders that this happens to, but then the list you provide has a lot of tiny orders on it.  Like one for 60ish dollars.  Really?  a 60 dollar transaction is the one they chose to defraud?  That's common sense?

 Once a customer has verified their bank account and initiated a buy transaction, right than and there the algorithm should kick in to detect if it is "high risk" or not.  NOT 2 weeks later when the money has been taken out of the person's bank account (and then ultimately returned back to the person's bank account bc it is "high risk").  That is why there is a verification process to make sure the registered customer owns the bank account.  During those 1 - 2 weeks, coinbase is in control and can do whatever at will.  

Common sense would tell you that NO credit processor can detect fraud instantly.  That's the whole point of the 1-2 week delay.  I would assume the algorithm is used to flag transactions for follow up, but I don't know for sure.  What I do know is, no creditor in existence can instantly tell if a transaction is fraudulent.  "common sense" tells you if that were possible, there would be no fraudulent transactions!

You can rectify everything by showing that "anti-fraud algorithm" for the experts to take a look at.  But who knows, you might have already covered your tracks.
 

That's cute.  You say they can rectify this situation by showing you the algorithm, and then just to cover your tracks just in case they do show you, you say they may have covered their tracks.  So basically you have decided they are frauds, and no amount of evidence will deter you.  Got it.  Incidentally, why would they show people who they obviously think are frauds, their anti fraud algorithm?  Would that be "common sense"?

Now about that list you provided.  There is one key piece of information you failed to give.  And that is, are those transactions fraudulent?  They refused to process those requests because they flagged them as fraudulent (which, just so we are clear, if they process them knowing they are fraud they are now committing a crime).  Maybe, jsut maybe, this isn't some great big conspiracy to defraud you, but those transactions are actually.....fraudulent?

[brian_23452]

Incidentally, people like you are precisely why every company has a small percentage of customers who are not happy.  You have clearly decided they are trying to f you over, and you have also made it clear that there is nothing they can do to change that opinion, so why would they even try?
As the saying goes, "the customer is always right.  but the business decides who is a customer"...

[Jamacn]

Bully off?

[Xiaoxiao]

Obviously, if Coinbase is allowing transactions to go through when BTC goes down in value, and not allowing transactions to go through when BTC goes up in value, that would be scammy.  With that said, I am not at all convinced that they do, and OP has offered no evidence to back up his accusation.

Coinbase has over 630,000 customers.  Almost all of which are happy and satisfied, but the small percentage that aren't happy or satisfied, has taken a HUGE hit.  We're not talking about $5, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars.  This "anti-fraud" "high risk transaction" algorithm that coinbase has is nothing more than an algorithm (if it's event that) made to put extra money in the pockets of the owners.

Obviously, every single organization in existence of any appreciable size has some amount of customers that are not happy.  This is life. 

How do I know this?  Common sense.

Ah, common sense.  This is one of those things someone says when they make a wild assertion, but don't have any proof.  If they had proof, they would provide it.  Since they don't, they just claim it is common sense.  Your claim it is large orders that this happens to, but then the list you provide has a lot of tiny orders on it.  Like one for 60ish dollars.  Really?  a 60 dollar transaction is the one they chose to defraud?  That's common sense?

Once a customer has verified their bank account and initiated a buy transaction, right than and there the algorithm should kick in to detect if it is "high risk" or not.  NOT 2 weeks later when the money has been taken out of the person's bank account (and then ultimately returned back to the person's bank account bc it is "high risk").  That is why there is a verification process to make sure the registered customer owns the bank account.  During those 1 - 2 weeks, coinbase is in control and can do whatever at will. 

Common sense would tell you that NO credit processor can detect fraud instantly.  That's the whole point of the 1-2 week delay.  I would assume the algorithm is used to flag transactions for follow up, but I don't know for sure.  What I do know is, no creditor in existence can instantly tell if a transaction is fraudulent.  "common sense" tells you if that were possible, there would be no fraudulent transactions!

You can rectify everything by showing that "anti-fraud algorithm" for the experts to take a look at.  But who knows, you might have already covered your tracks.
 

That's cute.  You say they can rectify this situation by showing you the algorithm, and then just to cover your tracks just in case they do show you, you say they may have covered their tracks.  So basically you have decided they are frauds, and no amount of evidence will deter you.  Got it.  Incidentally, why would they show people who they obviously think are frauds, their anti fraud algorithm?  Would that be "common sense"?

Now about that list you provided.  There is one key piece of information you failed to give.  And that is, are those transactions fraudulent?  They refused to process those requests because they flagged them as fraudulent (which, just so we are clear, if they process them knowing they are fraud they are now committing a crime).  Maybe, jsut maybe, this isn't some great big conspiracy to defraud you, but those transactions are actually.....fraudulent?

No they are absolutely not fraudulent.  Hence I was able to verify my bank.  You must be the real Brian Armstrong.  Brian, how about I prove to you those transactions are not fraudulent and you give me my 14.9 btc's at the agreed upon price? 

How are they fraudulent if I already verified ownership of the financial institution?  How are they fraudulent if the money was 1st taken out of the bank account?  Why not just dis allow me to purchase BEFORE taking the money out of the bank account? 

How about I send in my id's, bank statements, utility bills, people who vouch for my identity notarized?