You are speculators not investors

[chesthing]

Dude, get a freakin' life. Anytime you buy something in the hope it goes up in value you are investing.
I bought a nib Colt Python a few years ago for $2k, the same model is going for over $3k on GB. Did I invest in Colt the company? of course not, they stopped making them years ago. Did I make an investment? you bet your ass, and a good one.

[DannyElfman]

When you buy a rental property you are still investing. You buy the property, find someone to rent it and hopefully receive rent over time to cover your cost of funds less your expenses.

Speculation is something that is more of a gamble. Investing is doing research to determine that the odds are in your favor

[zimmah]

Why not both?

Seriously though, there's arguments to be made for both sides, depending on how you see bitcoin.

I don't even know why we are discussing this, what's the point?

[ElectricMucus]

Dude, get a freakin' life. Anytime you buy something in the hope it goes up in value you are investing.
I bought a nib Colt Python a few years ago for $2k, the same model is going for over $3k on GB. Did I invest in Colt the company? of course not, they stopped making them years ago. Did I make an investment? you bet your ass, and a good one.

Yes you "invested" in terms of a metaphor - in your own future.

I grant you that, and in a sense this is also true in terms of "investment" as "saving", like you people are doing with Bitcoins. It's "investment into your future self". It's not a literal meaning, it's more a play of the words kind of thing.
But going from there and coin yourself an investor because of it is where it breaks apart.

I can "invest into" a house, a car, education, kids, a gun, a savings account or bitcoins. That however does not make me an investor it just means I am "investing" into my future by having foresight and plans. The problem with bitcoins however is as long as you even care about the price you are not even "investing" in that sense.

[oda.krell]

Providing capital to something in order for that something to be able to perform its intended purpose  = investing.

Hence, we're investors.

If I stuff cash under my mattress it also performs it's intended purpose, it stays there.

You were more entertaining when you were at least trying to make sense. /shrug

[ElectricMucus]

you too.

[Tzupy]

...
Investing implies letting money work in a sense that it is actually utilized by somebody else.
...

I beg to differ. The fiat money invested by late adopters into bitcoins is utilized by early adopters to buy mansions, luxury cars and silverware.
Thus requiring even later adopters to invest fiat into bitcoin, so the late adopters themselves can buy mansions, luxury cars and silverware. 

[oda.krell]

Alright, I'll unwrap the argument assuming it wasn't clear what I meant in the first place:

To invest in something implies that capital is provided to something which, without that capital being provided, wouldn't work as intended.

Your "cash under the mattress" is not an example of that: nobody needs to provide capital to your pile of cash for it to be placed under your mattress.

Disagree with the goal and the way it is pursued or not, but some of us think Bitcoin is already a minor, and will become a major a) medium of exchange and b) store of wealth.

To work as a), liquidity has to be provided. To get near becoming b), wide acceptance, value stability, and some liquidity needs to exist.

In either case, any type of trading and usage activity (short term or long term) furthers the 'liquidity' and 'acceptance' points. Stability is trickier, although I disagree that short term trades necessarily increase volatility.

In summary, everyone who holds any amount of bitcoins for longer than a few moments is, effectively, investing in the bootstrapping event of a global decentralized currency.

[Wilhelm]

Imo There is no real difference apart from the fact that an investment has a better sound to it. An investment sounds more certain to succeed. In both cases you put money in a product to make a profit.

[findftp]

I am protecting my investment by calling all bitcoin opponents idiots and willing to fist fight for that matter..... I lied about the fist fighting thing.

I loved the fist fighting part.
You made my day, thanks.

[zoran]

Anyone cares how to call this "action"? Any difference comes with some other "word"?  I am failing to give a f*ck.

[ElectricMucus]

In summary, everyone who holds any amount of bitcoins for longer than a few moments is, effectively, investing in the bootstrapping event of a global decentralized currency.

ok but that is still not investing it's another use of the metaphor for "investing into my future" buy saving, just the "me" has been substituted for "us".

There is no investment in the literal sense, no value is being created in addition to the value of the fiat put in to buy the bitcoins. There is no return on investment taking place. It's the same thing as buying a gold coin, or any commodity. The gold mining industry benefits from the demand you create such as the bitcoin miners benefit.
There is no conceptual difference between the two things except:

I can't do anything with the Bitcoin except to spend it or keep it. Such as I can't do anything different with cash under my mattress. I even go as far as to say I would "support" the economy of the country issuing the currency the same way you would with your bitcoins and the bitcoin economy. Perhaps a better analogy would be USD reserves held by foreign nations like china, and the concern they might want to dump it some day. Are the Chinese investing in the US then? I don't think so, but perhaps you do.

[chesthing]

ElectricMucus, why are you here? If I have a low opinion of something I can tell you the last place you will find me, wasting my time on a discussion forum of that thing.

[ElectricMucus]

Drama, laughing at it and when I feel like it steer some up on my own.

Besides, I'm fine with speculating (or more harshly gambling) and do it myself every once in a while.

[chesthing]

So you want to see people with faith in something lose their money, this is funny to you?
You are a sad, sad man.

[twiifm]

So you want to see people with faith in something lose their money, this is funny to you?
You are a sad, sad man.

Well those people are smug and annoying. So yes.  Lol

[maker88]

Per OP's definition, buyers of an IPO are investors, but anyone buying after the IPO is not.  Yet clearly without later buyers you would have no IPO buyers.  OP has a very narrow view.

He didnt say that.  Hes talking about dividend stocks. IPO stocks dont give dividends

he didn't say that either. he just thinks all stocks pay dividends, he did not specify that SOME stocks use the money and pay dividends with it, he just said thats what stocks are. so either he is being purposely vague/wrong to get a response(likely) or he is just dumb(more likely?)

[oda.krell]

[...]

There is no investment in the literal sense, no value is being created in addition to the value of the fiat put in to buy the bitcoins.

[...]

This is the exact point where our opinions differ then.

If Bitcoin ever becomes something useful, enabling people to do something they couldn't have done before, it will have been through the early liquidity provided by us. That's what I'd call it an investment.

If Bitcoin fails to ever become useful, then I'd call it a "failed investment", which is still a form of investment.

I think, for you in order to not call it an investment at all, you have to work from the premise that Bitcoin cannot possibly become useful beyond something that existing implementations of currency already provide.

Agreed on that last point?

[ElectricMucus]

Bitcoin is an experiment not an investment. You can be "emotionally invested" in it's success which is another metaphor.

Other then that your Bitcoins (the number that represents your balance in the bitcoin wallet) will never be an investment nor will it make you an investor.
That is true even if the experiment succeeds on all accords (whatever that may be). What I think about the probability of it's success is irrelevant for the question of whenever people following the buy & hold strategy are investors or not. If it succeeds they would be very good speculators but still no investors.

[btcbug]

[...]

There is no investment in the literal sense, no value is being created in addition to the value of the fiat put in to buy the bitcoins.

[...]

This is the exact point where our opinions differ then.

If Bitcoin ever becomes something useful, enabling people to do something they couldn't have done before, it will have been through the early liquidity provided by us. That's what I'd call it an investment.

If Bitcoin fails to ever become useful, then I'd call it a "failed investment", which is still a form of investment.

I think, for you in order to not call it an investment at all, you have to work from the premise that Bitcoin cannot possibly become useful beyond something that existing implementations of currency already provide.

Agreed on that last point?

When I think of "investment" I think of something (business, real estate, etc.) that produces cash flow and in turn pays the investor out of the profits earned. The profits are earned by providing value to a paying customer.

For example if I owned rented real estate and rented it for a profit that would be an investment.

When I think "speculation" I think of seeking out (perceived) bargains and then re-selling them at a higher price to make a profit.

If I bought the real estate because I perceived that it was under valued and that I could re-sell it later for a higher price, that would be a speculation.

A lot of times people in real estate make money by a combination of those two ways, but don't really make a distinction between the two.

I think in terms of Bitcoin, buying and holding BTC is not really an investment in the more traditional sense, but I can see how the argument can be made. If holders of BTC did not have the foresight to recognize the value of Bitcoin, then in turn nobody would bother developing the infrastructure or services that do earn profits and create real value, correct?

I suppose that argument might apply to any speculation and perhaps there is no definite line, but as a general rule I would view starting or buying a BTC business that earns a profit on services to be more of an "investment", rather than just holding BTC.