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Author Topic: Tally stick lasted 720 yrs. Was it the worlds 1st and most successful digital Cy  (Read 3484 times)
devphp
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June 30, 2014, 03:23:59 PM
 #21

Tally sticks were not decentralized though. However, given the route Bitcoin is going, yeah, Bitcoin = tally stick Cheesy

They were. No central authority necessarily needed. A direct contract between two parties. Verification provided by nature. You could see from the structure of the wood if the two pieces fit together.

I meant the tally stick that was used to pay taxes to the king with and which was accepted as a form of currency in all of England.

If some two parties made their own tally stick, nobody but these two parties would accept it.

The tally sticks of the king were backed by the king's willingness to accept them as a tax payment option. Those were not decentralized.
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June 30, 2014, 04:04:45 PM
 #22

Those Rai stones are interesting, and what I find peculiar is how everyone seems to think they "Carved" the stones out of Limestone. In fact, the majority of Large Stone formations like the Pyramids are believed to be carved out of solid rock.

Does this make sense? When Limestone is used to make concrete and can be formed easily?

Look at those Rai stones and the center hole is perfect while many of them are irregular shaped disks. If they were experts at carving stone then why would they make them so imperfect?

It's because they poured the concrete around a pole and it dried.

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June 30, 2014, 04:22:55 PM
 #23

Those Rai stones are interesting, and what I find peculiar is how everyone seems to think they "Carved" the stones out of Limestone. In fact, the majority of Large Stone formations like the Pyramids are believed to be carved out of solid rock.

Does this make sense? When Limestone is used to make concrete and can be formed easily?

Look at those Rai stones and the center hole is perfect while many of them are irregular shaped disks. If they were experts at carving stone then why would they make them so imperfect?

It's because they poured the concrete around a pole and it dried.
There is no evidence that they had concrete technology. A center hole is round if you drill.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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June 30, 2014, 06:52:25 PM
 #24



It is true that the tally was used to pay taxes but it was also used in trade to buy goods/lend money

What I find particularly interesting is the length of time this system was used (700 yrs )and that its main opponents and the cause of its eventual demise were the bankers/money lenders who preferred to create "money" with little or no assets to back it up ( out of thin air) in order to earn interest on lending the "magic money" . A system that persists to this day and the greed has turned what used to be  creating money to a multiple of 10 times the assets held to something nearer 1,000 times or worse with derivatives, rehypothecation of clients assets and other complicated (so the layman doesn't understand he's at high risk) financial instruments.



Split tally

The split tally was a technique which became common in medieval Europe, which was constantly short of money (coins) and predominantly illiterate, in order to record bilateral exchange and debts. A stick (squared hazelwood sticks were most common) was marked with a system of notches and then split lengthwise. This way the two halves both record the same notches and each party to the transaction received one half of the marked stick as proof. Later this technique was refined in various ways and became virtually tamper proof. One of the refinements was to make the two halves of the stick of different lengths. The longer part was called stock and was given to the party which had advanced money (or other items) to the receiver. The shorter portion of the stick was called foil and was given to the party which had received the funds or goods. Using this technique each of the parties had an identifiable record of the transaction. The natural irregularities in the surfaces of the tallies where they were split would mean that only the original two halves would fit back together perfectly, and so would verify that they were matching halves of the same transaction. If one party tried to unilaterally change the value of his half of the tally stick by adding more notches, those notches would not be on the other tally stick and would be revealed as an attempted forgery. The split tally was accepted as legal proof in medieval courts and the Napoleonic Code (1804) still makes reference to the tally stick in Article 1333.[4] Along the Danube and in Switzerland the tally was still used in the 20th century in rural economies.
Split tally in England

The most prominent and best recorded use of the split tally stick (or "nick-stick"[5][6]) being used as a form of currency was when King Henry I initiated the tally stick system in or around 1100 in medieval England. He would only accept the tally stick for taxes, and it was a tool of the Exchequer for the collection of taxes by local sheriffs (tax farmers "farming the shire") for seven centuries. The split tally of the Exchequer was in continuous use until 1826. In 1834, the tallies themselves were ordered to be burned in a stove in the Houses of Parliament, but the fire went out of control setting the building afire.

The system of tally marks of the Exchequer is described in The Dialogue Concerning the Exchequer (see external links below) as follows:

    The manner of cutting is as follows. At the top of the tally a cut is made, the thickness of the palm of the hand, to represent a thousand pounds; then a hundred pounds by a cut the breadth of a thumb; twenty pounds, the breadth of the little finger; a single pound, the width of a swollen barleycorn; a shilling rather narrower; then a penny is marked by a single cut without removing any wood.
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June 30, 2014, 08:26:37 PM
 #25

There's no reason an electronic Bitcoin/Colored Coin version of a tally stick couldn't be made. It's not so much about the form (though it could look like a magic wand), but the simplicity and ease of use would help Bitcoin adoption.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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June 30, 2014, 08:41:24 PM
 #26

Apart from the "electronically created" part of the def. which was not an option in 1100A.D.

Nonsense.  There were electric batteries found in Pharaoh's tombs in Egypt.  They were just slackers.  Wink

1BitcHiCK1iRa6YVY6qDqC6M594RBYLNPo
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June 30, 2014, 08:51:23 PM
 #27

Apart from the "electronically created" part of the def. which was not an option in 1100A.D.

Nonsense.  There were electric batteries found in Pharaoh's tombs in Egypt.  They were just slackers.  Wink

Maybe they had a steampunk tally stick.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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July 01, 2014, 01:03:07 AM
 #28

I don't think you understand exactly what 'digital' means, however, I shall tell you:

Most likely, if the Internet wasn't alive, then it's not a digital currency. Thank you.
The tally stick's tally is indeed digital. It was a currency. It wasn't electronic or transmitted digitally.

Most people who refer to bitcoin as a digital currency do so because it's transferred digitally, not because it's comprised of digits. Isn't all currencies comprised of digits? Since a money stick cannot be transmitted or replicated digitally I'd say it's not a digital currency.
Weight of gold is a continuous variable. Marks on a stick are quantized.

Hardforks aren't that hard. It’s getting others to use them that's hard.
1GCDzqmX2Cf513E8NeThNHxiYEivU1Chhe
qwerty555
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July 01, 2014, 05:52:00 AM
 #29


Could the true origin of nick= to steal .............be from persons adding notches(nicks) to their tally stick in an attempt to steal money? Smiley

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=nick

nick (v.) Look up nick at Dictionary.com
    1520s, "to make a notch in," from nick (n.). Sense of "to steal" is from 1869, probably from earlier slang sense of "to catch, take unawares, arrest" (1620s). The precise sense connection is unclear. Related: Nicked; nicking.

and on a completely unconnected but entertaining note..I found this list of British slang while looking for the origin of nick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_slang

D

darbies
    Handcuffs.[95]
debag
    To remove someone's trousers by force.[96]
dekko
    Look. From the Hindi, dekho.[97]
dick
    1. Fellow. 2. Penis.[98]
dip
    a pickpocket.[99]
div
    idiot (prison slang)[100]
do one's nut
    Become enraged.[101]
doddle
    Something simple or easy to accomplish.[102]
dodgy
    Something risky, difficult or dangerous. A 'dodgy deal' for example.[102]
dog
    1. A rough or unattractive woman. 2. A fellow.[102]
dog's bollocks
    1. Anything obvious ("Sticks out like the dog's bollocks").[103] 2. Something especially good or first rate ("It's the dog's bollocks", sometimes abbreviated to, "it's the dog's").[103]
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July 01, 2014, 06:23:02 AM
 #30


Those Rai stones are interesting, and what I find peculiar is how everyone seems to think they "Carved" the stones out of Limestone. In fact, the majority of Large Stone formations like the Pyramids are believed to be carved out of solid rock.

Does this make sense? When Limestone is used to make concrete and can be formed easily?

Look at those Rai stones and the center hole is perfect while many of them are irregular shaped disks. If they were experts at carving stone then why would they make them so imperfect?

It's because they poured the concrete around a pole and it dried.
There is no evidence that they had concrete technology. A center hole is round if you drill.

The stones themselves are the evidence. Concrete is made from Limestone and they quarried the limestone from the islands 400 miles away.

Tell me these don't look like poured concrete slabs:


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July 01, 2014, 06:23:45 AM
 #31

What about "Got the short end of the stick" the short stick was the debtor

and "To tally up" (add up)

Both originated from the Tally stick


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July 01, 2014, 07:42:31 AM
 #32

What about "Got the short end of the stick" the short stick was the debtor

and "To tally up" (add up)

Both originated from the Tally stick

Correct....I suspect all of those and more originate from a system that lasted 7 centuries.
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July 01, 2014, 08:38:24 AM
Last edit: July 01, 2014, 10:43:01 AM by Lethn
 #33

Tally sticks were indeed used by Henry the 1st but the OP clearly doesn't have any idea of what he's talking about and yes a tally stick isn't a bloody digital currency, for it to be digital it has to be in a COMPUTER and they weren't invented back then.

Even though it is regularly perpetrated by people who want to sell it to you like with anything that does well, Gold and Silver have definitely been the most successful currencies in the past couple of thousand years, since people always regarded them as a store of value the precious metals never went away no matter how governments tried to mess with their national currencies just like now. You can't compare Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies with anything previously made because it is a brand new technology, the closest thing I have been able to find to them is P2P filesharing because it works a lot like that but instead of sharing internet connection speeds you're sharing computing power.
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July 01, 2014, 11:24:12 AM
 #34

Obviously there's two different definitions of a 'digital' currency being used here and obviously a tally stick is nothing like a cryptocurrency.

Apart from the "electronically created" part of the def. which was not an option in 1100A.D.

Nonsense.  There were electric batteries found in Pharaoh's tombs in Egypt.  They were just slackers.  Wink

I think someone has been watching too much Ancient Aliens  Cheesy.
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July 01, 2014, 12:32:25 PM
 #35



I will not disagree that to consider the tally stick as a (fore runner to) digital currency is a bit of a leap but if use of a computer is now what is required, it appears that the tally stick was an early form of computer. a modern day computer is far more advanced and uses electricity but the definition does not state that a computer must be used. I do not dispute that the common usage of the term infers that it is created on a modern day computer and can be transmitted ( via internet). maybe the definition should be amended to include those parameters.

Devices have been used to aid computation for thousands of years, mostly using one-to-one correspondence with fingers. The earliest counting device was probably a form of tally stick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer#Ancient_era

if it is to be excluded the absence of it being "electronically created" is arguably stronger .
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July 01, 2014, 12:46:53 PM
 #36


Those Rai stones are interesting, and what I find peculiar is how everyone seems to think they "Carved" the stones out of Limestone. In fact, the majority of Large Stone formations like the Pyramids are believed to be carved out of solid rock.

Does this make sense? When Limestone is used to make concrete and can be formed easily?

Look at those Rai stones and the center hole is perfect while many of them are irregular shaped disks. If they were experts at carving stone then why would they make them so imperfect?

It's because they poured the concrete around a pole and it dried.
There is no evidence that they had concrete technology. A center hole is round if you drill.

The stones themselves are the evidence. Concrete is made from Limestone and they quarried the limestone from the islands 400 miles away.

Tell me these don't look like poured concrete slabs:


They don't. Besides, if they had concrete, then where are their ancient roads and office buildings?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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July 01, 2014, 01:14:12 PM
 #37

I don't think you understand exactly what 'digital' means, however, I shall tell you:

Most likely, if the Internet wasn't alive, then it's not a digital currency. Thank you.

But, now that we have the internet, we can develop and promote digital Tally Sticks based on PoW: The more trees cut down, the more TS in circulation. Miners will be replaced with harvesters.

As far as the TSBC (Tally Stick Block Chain) is concern, this...

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July 01, 2014, 01:23:51 PM
 #38


Those Rai stones are interesting, and what I find peculiar is how everyone seems to think they "Carved" the stones out of Limestone. In fact, the majority of Large Stone formations like the Pyramids are believed to be carved out of solid rock.

Does this make sense? When Limestone is used to make concrete and can be formed easily?

Look at those Rai stones and the center hole is perfect while many of them are irregular shaped disks. If they were experts at carving stone then why would they make them so imperfect?

It's because they poured the concrete around a pole and it dried.
There is no evidence that they had concrete technology. A center hole is round if you drill.

The stones themselves are the evidence. Concrete is made from Limestone and they quarried the limestone from the islands 400 miles away.

Tell me these don't look like poured concrete slabs:


They don't. Besides, if they had concrete, then where are their ancient roads and office buildings?

Building roads and office building take money and, as you can see, Yap was in short supply of currency, so they invented deflation instead.
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July 01, 2014, 01:34:40 PM
 #39


Those Rai stones are interesting, and what I find peculiar is how everyone seems to think they "Carved" the stones out of Limestone. In fact, the majority of Large Stone formations like the Pyramids are believed to be carved out of solid rock.

Does this make sense? When Limestone is used to make concrete and can be formed easily?

Look at those Rai stones and the center hole is perfect while many of them are irregular shaped disks. If they were experts at carving stone then why would they make them so imperfect?

It's because they poured the concrete around a pole and it dried.
There is no evidence that they had concrete technology. A center hole is round if you drill.

The stones themselves are the evidence. Concrete is made from Limestone and they quarried the limestone from the islands 400 miles away.

Tell me these don't look like poured concrete slabs:


They don't. Besides, if they had concrete, then where are their ancient roads and office buildings?

Building roads and office building take money and, as you can see, Yap was in short supply of currency, so they invented deflation instead.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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July 04, 2014, 05:57:44 PM
 #40


Those Rai stones are interesting, and what I find peculiar is how everyone seems to think they "Carved" the stones out of Limestone. In fact, the majority of Large Stone formations like the Pyramids are believed to be carved out of solid rock.

Does this make sense? When Limestone is used to make concrete and can be formed easily?

Look at those Rai stones and the center hole is perfect while many of them are irregular shaped disks. If they were experts at carving stone then why would they make them so imperfect?

It's because they poured the concrete around a pole and it dried.
There is no evidence that they had concrete technology. A center hole is round if you drill.

The stones themselves are the evidence. Concrete is made from Limestone and they quarried the limestone from the islands 400 miles away.

Tell me these don't look like poured concrete slabs:


They don't. Besides, if they had concrete, then where are their ancient roads and office buildings?

Building roads and office building take money and, as you can see, Yap was in short supply of currency, so they invented deflation instead.

Are you sure they don't look like concrete?


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