Bitcoin Forum
May 08, 2024, 12:47:56 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Real honest Money  (Read 6768 times)
manfred (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966
Merit: 1001


Energy is Wealth


View Profile
July 02, 2014, 10:05:11 AM
Last edit: July 26, 2015, 10:13:36 AM by manfred
 #1

Remember basic Physics you can not create something for nothing

There is no better promise than Energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it as it is universally recognised. To create a Proof of Work (PoW) coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. A Proof that work has been done. Right now it costs $600 Dollar to generate a Bitcoin, someone has done $600 Dollars worth of work, thats a promise. If someone has done $600 dollar worth of honest work for you, are you going to pay him? If a miner sells below cost he will not be a miner for long, if the profit is huge others will join. I don't need to be Einstein to figure out if a Bitcoin sells for $1000 and i can produce it for $600 i will produce.
Not only the electric used to mine it is also the production of the chips, the engineers designing the chip of the algo........

Litecoin is a backup of your real money just like you back up your wallet. It is gross negligence to have no backup. In case something drastic happens it's something of fall back onto, basically a insurance policy. It will always lag bitcoin, thats a fact.
 



Gold and Silver is real money too, but it is awkward to give change, awkward to carry, awkward to store, awkward to sent.....awkward

Everyone knows the fiat fake money and now is a new contender in town, PoS the little cousin.
PoS only has value because of Bitcoin otherwise no one would buy it to it and there would be a fair chance the PoS pyramid scheme would be outlawed. After all the interest payment must come from somewhere, yes the bigger fool until it collapses.

Some of us going to have a free lunch now, want to come along?
It does not matter the style of initial distribution we use, the scam nxt or Blackcoins or any other the changes are only cosmetic and the end result is the same. For the heck of it let's use the nxt style

1. Create a anonymous account on a forum.
2. Announce to creation of a new coin and ask willing participants to sent a few satoshies worth of bitcoins, not to much we dont want to scam you of the real money, just enough so we can sent you your stake when ready.
3. Tell your friends, family....... to create numerous anonymous accounts on the forum and sent up to the maximum 1 bitcoin tell em to sent lots it is worth while and as they know you, the will. Now create several anonymous accounts yourself and sent bitcoins to yourself too. You and your friends have a total of 15 bitcoins sent and the others who have sent some "dust" did sent .15 of a bitcoin combined.
4. Now create the coin and sent everyone the millions of the new coin disrupted according to the bitcoins (satoshi's) sent
5. Start buying the coins of the early "investors"  who have sent real money (bitcoin) to an aon on the internet. Yourself and your mates hold thigh so very soon the price rises and for the 100 million coins or so you sent to the early adaptors there is a real scramble. Soon the early "investors"  can show massive gains and buy more and tell there friends also about this great staking game coin.  An ever greater demand for the original token payments "dust" is happening and more and more money is flowing in.
6. Some time has past  and you have long ago recouped 1000 fold your bitcoins sent to yourself and cash out regularly as more and more new money flows in and you control 99% of available coins are the puppet-master and in full control of the market.

Some one else realizes this and starts his one coin. He has a bigger budget to play with, can create a better website, change a few parameters and very soon the coin takes of too as some sheep now follow it too, just in case.

An even bigger player follows the 6 steps above to create his coin with a fixed limited number to stake with.

Some time passes, lots of new staking coins created all limited editions, of the endless created PoS coins.
 
At some stage Microsoft or any other large player deceits it too will find use for another few millions in the bank account and follows the 6 steps above and when it cashes out will leave an even bigger number of bag holders behind.

Next in line is the FED, whoha what a blockbuster the best staking coin ever, the pump phenomenal, gona have to jump on that train before it leaves.
"BCNext" yeh we will follow you loyally.

By no means must you be a big player to enter this game. If you make enough noise in you neighbourhood you too will find fools who part with money easy, geed will make sure of it just throw in the burley and fish will bite.

Unlike PoW in PoS it does not matter when you start your money for nothing enterprise (creation of Proof of Stake coin), however it is to assume that sooner and not later the fools have run out of real money drying to have a stake in every new coin coming to market, because "just in case". Coins claiming to pay x interest can only to so when a bigger fool enters after all it has to come from somewhere.
All the best claiming your stake of nothingness.
The proper meaning for PoS is Proof of Scam (Po$) alternatively Proof of Stupidity.
Proof-of-stake is “fundamentally flawed”. https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

Quote
If someone does a honest fair amount of work and the other stands around with his hands in his pockets, who are you going to pay?

Inflation, among many other things stops new PoW coins in its tracks unless it cheats in some way to overcome it and it must be at the expense of something. The key element is how much hash power can any coin produce in the very very long term.(What is the block reward of a given coin in 50 years time). Investors (not the local gambler) will invest in a coin as long as they see growed, the coin needs a decent block reward for a long time to come.



Edit:
Bitcoin is a intangible good just like your shoes are a tangible good. You will have a hard time doing any meaningful exchange of wealth on a global scale with any tangible (physical) good. Who creates a good does not matter, after all when was the last time you made your own shoe. Most people are quite happy to wear a shoe made by a multimillion dollar big company. What matters is that you can be assured fair work has been done, you can not cheat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangible_good


"The price of any commodity tends to gravitate toward the production cost" -Satoshi

  
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1715129276
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715129276

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715129276
Reply with quote  #2

1715129276
Report to moderator
1715129276
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715129276

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715129276
Reply with quote  #2

1715129276
Report to moderator
1715129276
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715129276

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715129276
Reply with quote  #2

1715129276
Report to moderator
Dogtanian
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 500


View Profile
July 02, 2014, 10:31:51 AM
 #2

Well I agree with a lot of what you say, but surely there's energy that has gone into creating paper money and coins as well?
EtherCoin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 338
Merit: 255


View Profile
July 02, 2014, 11:05:11 AM
 #3

Well I agree with a lot of what you say, but surely there's energy that has gone into creating paper money and coins as well?

Touche...

Eth.
manfred (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966
Merit: 1001


Energy is Wealth


View Profile
July 02, 2014, 11:19:16 AM
 #4

Well I agree with a lot of what you say, but surely there's energy that has gone into creating paper money and coins as well?
Yes, but i can promise you that not 90% of the face-value of a note was spent on creation. I can also promise you that you can not make a Bitcoin for say less than $500 today. There is always an element of speculation and other aspects also determining the price. The same apply's for Gold you need x energy to dig it up and store it unless you get very lucky and find a nugget in your garden.
When someone paints your house, he can proof the work has been done and you pay him.
guybrushthreepwood
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1232
Merit: 1195



View Profile
July 02, 2014, 11:22:58 AM
 #5

It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day.

And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos?
RobFordWotWot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280
Merit: 250

time


View Profile
July 02, 2014, 11:36:16 AM
 #6

Ya don't say?

Horses in midstream.
Aswan
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1734
Merit: 1015



View Profile
July 02, 2014, 11:44:56 AM
 #7



So a GPU mined bitcoin is worth more than an ASIC mined one because more energy has been used to mine it?

Sorry, but thats not how it works.
manfred (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966
Merit: 1001


Energy is Wealth


View Profile
July 02, 2014, 11:50:19 AM
 #8

It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day.

And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos?
Bitcoin and Litecoin are not the only honest monies, basically if honest work has been done like PoW yes of course. How much it cost right now to make a bitcoin, dont know,  one varies. You have to buy the miner to .....
fryarminer
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 500


View Profile
July 02, 2014, 11:58:19 AM
 #9

It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day.

And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos?

You kidding me?? It costs way more! Spend $500 and you will never mine even 0.5! (Of course taking into consideration buying a mining rig as well.)

OP - great article. You've changed my understanding of PoS.

manfred (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966
Merit: 1001


Energy is Wealth


View Profile
July 02, 2014, 12:02:52 PM
 #10

It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day.

And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos?

You kidding me?? It costs way more! Spend $500 and you will never mine even 0.5! (Of course taking into consideration buying a mining rig as well.)

OP - great article. You've changed my understanding of PoS.


According to coindesk it cost $597.23
http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/
will not be cheaper tomorrow....
fryarminer
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 500


View Profile
July 02, 2014, 12:13:34 PM
 #11

It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day.

And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos?

You kidding me?? It costs way more! Spend $500 and you will never mine even 0.5! (Of course taking into consideration buying a mining rig as well.)

OP - great article. You've changed my understanding of PoS.


According to coindesk it cost $597.23
http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/
will not be cheaper tomorrow....

Wow, serious calculations! Thank you! Excellent article!

doo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70
Merit: 10


View Profile
July 03, 2014, 03:37:56 PM
 #12

Thanks, now it makes all sense to me. Never could figure out why only a few hundred nxt are traded on average and there is 1 Billion of them available
franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4214
Merit: 4475



View Profile
July 03, 2014, 03:53:33 PM
 #13

FIAT promise is linked to minimum wage.

£10 bank note is worth 1.5 hours of minimum wage labour.. (roughly)

so that is the measurement.. knowing that somewhere along the line someone worked 1.5 hours just to get a £10 bank note

this is why minimum wage increases have been sluggish for 7 years. because changing the minimum wage too fast or bringing it upto £8 (cost of living estimates) would devalue the bank notes considerably (inflation)

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Nerazzura
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378
Merit: 250


View Profile
July 03, 2014, 04:59:01 PM
 #14

It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day.

And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos?
it's because they're both older and earlier than others. and other crypto her becoming known as bitcoin and litecoin well. if bitcoin takes time to be recognized and accepted the crypto must. that all running stable and balanced
Skele
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224
Merit: 100

VocalPlatform.com


View Profile
July 04, 2014, 05:36:04 AM
 #15

It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day.

And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos?
it's because they're both older and earlier than others. and other crypto her becoming known as bitcoin and litecoin well. if bitcoin takes time to be recognized and accepted the crypto must. that all running stable and balanced
Besides Bitcoin prices are too low now, maybe when it reaches a thousand again, some things would be different...
rext
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 378
Merit: 100



View Profile
July 04, 2014, 08:48:34 AM
 #16

yea when it reaches 2000+ that would be awesome lol
Harley997
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 266
Merit: 250


View Profile
July 04, 2014, 04:48:39 PM
 #17

It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day.

And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos?

You kidding me?? It costs way more! Spend $500 and you will never mine even 0.5! (Of course taking into consideration buying a mining rig as well.)

OP - great article. You've changed my understanding of PoS.

Well it really depends on your definition of "cost" as there are a number of different ways to measure this. If you are measuring in terms of electric use (really the most accurate) then it costs much less then $500 to mine one bitcoin. If you are measuring in terms of renting mining capacity then it will cost ~1.05BTC to mine one bitcoin.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
PRIMEDICE
The Premier Bitcoin Gambling Experience @PrimeDice
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
Beliathon
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784
Merit: 1000


https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU


View Profile WWW
July 04, 2014, 05:28:41 PM
 #18

this is why minimum wage increases have been sluggish for 7 years.
Don't know about the UK, but here in the USA, federal minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation since 1968.

We're going on 50 years of stagnating wages coupled with ever-increasing inflation. Is it really any wonder that the wealth is being concentrated at the top?

Remember Aaron Swartz, a 26 year old computer scientist who died defending the free flow of information.
Harley997
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 266
Merit: 250


View Profile
July 04, 2014, 10:51:09 PM
 #19

this is why minimum wage increases have been sluggish for 7 years.
Don't know about the UK, but here in the USA, federal minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation since 1968.

We're going on 50 years of stagnating wages coupled with ever-increasing inflation. Is it really any wonder that the wealth is being concentrated at the top?
Minimum wage has nothing to do with concentration of wealth, it is simply the rate that a worker with no skills and experience will make at an entry level job.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
PRIMEDICE
The Premier Bitcoin Gambling Experience @PrimeDice
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
nicetry
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56
Merit: 0


View Profile
July 05, 2014, 06:43:53 AM
Last edit: July 05, 2014, 04:18:27 PM by nicetry
 #20

I love a guy that creates a whole long freaking post to talk about PoW being "backed" by energy when he has no clue what "backed" even means

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361813.msg7624335#msg7624335

To be backed by energy, your exchange rate back to energy cannot change, just like when dollar was backed by gold until the 1970s (http://money.howstuffworks.com/currency7.htm).  It has to be set at a constant exchange rate and be guaranteed by some kind of entity that you can exchange the coin back to "energy cost" that it ORIGINALLY took to produce these coins.  Your oh-so-dear PoW coin values fluctuates with no regard whatsoever to what energy costs to produce these coins.  And it isn't backed by anybody.

A perfect analogy for your flawed argument is like saying "just because a stock X is dollar denominated (traded in US dollars), it is backed by the US Dollars" (and somehow that prevents it from dropping in value).  Yes it is worth a certain amount of US dollars but that amount is always changing.  A stock can be worth $50 one day and drop to $1 the next if people loses confidence in that stock (or even $0 if the company goes bankrupt).  The value of the US Dollar does not affect the stock price or vice versa.  

Same thing with PoW coins.  If people loses confidence in a coin, no matter if it's PoW (or even PoS for that matter, but i'm only concentrating on your flawed premise, which is what your argument is based on), it is going to drop regardless, no matter how much "energy" you put into making this coin a week ago, or a month ago, or a year ago.  This is the proof that there is NO "BACKING" of any kind from energy.  Plus no entity would guarantee that "backing" of yours.

Don't talk about stuff that's over your head please.  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!