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Title: Real honest Money Post by: manfred on July 02, 2014, 10:05:11 AM Remember basic Physics you can not create something for nothing
There is no better promise than Energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it as it is universally recognised. To create a Proof of Work (PoW) coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. A Proof that work has been done. Right now it costs $600 Dollar to generate a Bitcoin, someone has done $600 Dollars worth of work, thats a promise. If someone has done $600 dollar worth of honest work for you, are you going to pay him? If a miner sells below cost he will not be a miner for long, if the profit is huge others will join. I don't need to be Einstein to figure out if a Bitcoin sells for $1000 and i can produce it for $600 i will produce. Not only the electric used to mine it is also the production of the chips, the engineers designing the chip of the algo........ https://i.imgur.com/UyGM0pN.jpg Litecoin is a backup of your real money just like you back up your wallet. It is gross negligence to have no backup. In case something drastic happens it's something of fall back onto, basically a insurance policy. It will always lag bitcoin, thats a fact. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9mmUIF2450P2yOW50K3eOhK6S0m32uzGtBhOB4842LhCrx2N1ug Gold and Silver is real money too, but it is awkward to give change, awkward to carry, awkward to store, awkward to sent.....awkward Everyone knows the fiat fake money and now is a new contender in town, PoS the little cousin. PoS only has value because of Bitcoin otherwise no one would buy it to it and there would be a fair chance the PoS pyramid scheme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme) would be outlawed. After all the interest payment must come from somewhere, yes the bigger fool until it collapses. Some of us going to have a free lunch now, want to come along? It does not matter the style of initial distribution we use, the scam nxt or Blackcoins or any other the changes are only cosmetic and the end result is the same. For the heck of it let's use the nxt style 1. Create a anonymous account on a forum. 2. Announce to creation of a new coin and ask willing participants to sent a few satoshies worth of bitcoins, not to much we dont want to scam you of the real money, just enough so we can sent you your stake when ready. 3. Tell your friends, family....... to create numerous anonymous accounts on the forum and sent up to the maximum 1 bitcoin tell em to sent lots it is worth while and as they know you, the will. Now create several anonymous accounts yourself and sent bitcoins to yourself too. You and your friends have a total of 15 bitcoins sent and the others who have sent some "dust" did sent .15 of a bitcoin combined. 4. Now create the coin and sent everyone the millions of the new coin disrupted according to the bitcoins (satoshi's) sent 5. Start buying the coins of the early "investors" who have sent real money (bitcoin) to an aon on the internet. Yourself and your mates hold thigh so very soon the price rises and for the 100 million coins or so you sent to the early adaptors there is a real scramble. Soon the early "investors" can show massive gains and buy more and tell there friends also about this great staking 6. Some time has past and you have long ago recouped 1000 fold your bitcoins sent to yourself and cash out regularly as more and more new money flows in and you control 99% of available coins are the puppet-master and in full control of the market. Some one else realizes this and starts his one coin. He has a bigger budget to play with, can create a better website, change a few parameters and very soon the coin takes of too as some sheep now follow it too, just in case. An even bigger player follows the 6 steps above to create his coin with a fixed limited number to stake with. Some time passes, lots of new staking coins created all limited editions, of the endless created PoS coins. At some stage Microsoft or any other large player deceits it too will find use for another few millions in the bank account and follows the 6 steps above and when it cashes out will leave an even bigger number of bag holders behind. Next in line is the FED, whoha what a blockbuster the best staking coin ever, the pump phenomenal, gona have to jump on that train before it leaves. "BCNext" yeh we will follow you loyally. By no means must you be a big player to enter this game. If you make enough noise in you neighbourhood you too will find fools who part with money easy, geed will make sure of it just throw in the burley and fish will bite. Unlike PoW in PoS it does not matter when you start your money for nothing enterprise (creation of Proof of Stake coin), however it is to assume that sooner and not later the fools have run out of real money drying to have a stake in every new coin coming to market, because "just in case". Coins claiming to pay x interest can only to so when a bigger fool enters after all it has to come from somewhere. All the best claiming your stake of nothingness. The proper meaning for PoS is Proof of Scam (Po$) alternatively Proof of Stupidity. Proof-of-stake is “fundamentally flawed”. https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf (https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf) Quote If someone does a honest fair amount of work and the other stands around with his hands in his pockets, who are you going to pay? Inflation, among many other things stops new PoW coins in its tracks unless it cheats in some way to overcome it and it must be at the expense of something. The key element is how much hash power can any coin produce in the very very long term.(What is the block reward of a given coin in 50 years time). Investors (not the local gambler) will invest in a coin as long as they see growed, the coin needs a decent block reward for a long time to come. Edit: Bitcoin is a intangible good just like your shoes are a tangible good. You will have a hard time doing any meaningful exchange of wealth on a global scale with any tangible (physical) good. Who creates a good does not matter, after all when was the last time you made your own shoe. Most people are quite happy to wear a shoe made by a multimillion dollar big company. What matters is that you can be assured fair work has been done, you can not cheat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangible_good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangible_good) "The price of any commodity tends to gravitate toward the production cost" -Satoshi Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Dogtanian on July 02, 2014, 10:31:51 AM Well I agree with a lot of what you say, but surely there's energy that has gone into creating paper money and coins as well?
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: EtherCoin on July 02, 2014, 11:05:11 AM Well I agree with a lot of what you say, but surely there's energy that has gone into creating paper money and coins as well? Touche... Eth. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: manfred on July 02, 2014, 11:19:16 AM Well I agree with a lot of what you say, but surely there's energy that has gone into creating paper money and coins as well? Yes, but i can promise you that not 90% of the face-value of a note was spent on creation. I can also promise you that you can not make a Bitcoin for say less than $500 today. There is always an element of speculation and other aspects also determining the price. The same apply's for Gold you need x energy to dig it up and store it unless you get very lucky and find a nugget in your garden. When someone paints your house, he can proof the work has been done and you pay him. Title: Re: Bitcoin and Litecoin is real honest Money Post by: guybrushthreepwood on July 02, 2014, 11:22:58 AM It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day.
And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos? Title: Re: Bitcoin and Litecoin is real honest Money Post by: RobFordWotWot on July 02, 2014, 11:36:16 AM Title: Re: Bitcoin and Litecoin is real honest Money Post by: Aswan on July 02, 2014, 11:44:56 AM So a GPU mined bitcoin is worth more than an ASIC mined one because more energy has been used to mine it? Sorry, but thats not how it works. Title: Re: Bitcoin and Litecoin is real honest Money Post by: manfred on July 02, 2014, 11:50:19 AM It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day. Bitcoin and Litecoin are not the only honest monies, basically if honest work has been done like PoW yes of course. How much it cost right now to make a bitcoin, dont know, one varies. You have to buy the miner to .....And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos? Title: Re: Bitcoin and Litecoin is real honest Money Post by: fryarminer on July 02, 2014, 11:58:19 AM It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day. And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos? You kidding me?? It costs way more! Spend $500 and you will never mine even 0.5! (Of course taking into consideration buying a mining rig as well.) OP - great article. You've changed my understanding of PoS. Title: Re: Bitcoin and Litecoin is real honest Money Post by: manfred on July 02, 2014, 12:02:52 PM It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day. And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos? You kidding me?? It costs way more! Spend $500 and you will never mine even 0.5! (Of course taking into consideration buying a mining rig as well.) OP - great article. You've changed my understanding of PoS. http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/ (http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/) will not be cheaper tomorrow.... Title: Re: Bitcoin and Litecoin is real honest Money Post by: fryarminer on July 02, 2014, 12:13:34 PM It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day. And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos? You kidding me?? It costs way more! Spend $500 and you will never mine even 0.5! (Of course taking into consideration buying a mining rig as well.) OP - great article. You've changed my understanding of PoS. http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/ (http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/) will not be cheaper tomorrow.... Wow, serious calculations! Thank you! Excellent article! Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: doo on July 03, 2014, 03:37:56 PM Thanks, now it makes all sense to me. Never could figure out why only a few hundred nxt are traded on average and there is 1 Billion of them available
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 03, 2014, 03:53:33 PM FIAT promise is linked to minimum wage.
£10 bank note is worth 1.5 hours of minimum wage labour.. (roughly) so that is the measurement.. knowing that somewhere along the line someone worked 1.5 hours just to get a £10 bank note this is why minimum wage increases have been sluggish for 7 years. because changing the minimum wage too fast or bringing it upto £8 (cost of living estimates) would devalue the bank notes considerably (inflation) Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Nerazzura on July 03, 2014, 04:59:01 PM It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day. it's because they're both older and earlier than others. and other crypto her becoming known as bitcoin and litecoin well. if bitcoin takes time to be recognized and accepted the crypto must. that all running stable and balancedAnd why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos? Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Skele on July 04, 2014, 05:36:04 AM It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day. it's because they're both older and earlier than others. and other crypto her becoming known as bitcoin and litecoin well. if bitcoin takes time to be recognized and accepted the crypto must. that all running stable and balancedAnd why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos? Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: rext on July 04, 2014, 08:48:34 AM yea when it reaches 2000+ that would be awesome lol
Title: Re: Bitcoin and Litecoin is real honest Money Post by: Harley997 on July 04, 2014, 04:48:39 PM It really costs $500 to mine one bitcoin? I thought it'd be cheaper than that as you're not really making much at the end of the day. And why are Bitcoin and Litecoin the only honest monies? Why none of the other cryptos? You kidding me?? It costs way more! Spend $500 and you will never mine even 0.5! (Of course taking into consideration buying a mining rig as well.) OP - great article. You've changed my understanding of PoS. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Beliathon on July 04, 2014, 05:28:41 PM this is why minimum wage increases have been sluggish for 7 years. Don't know about the UK, but here in the USA, federal minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation since 1968 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZU3wfjtIJY).We're going on 50 years of stagnating wages coupled with ever-increasing inflation. Is it really any wonder that the wealth is being concentrated at the top (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM)? Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Harley997 on July 04, 2014, 10:51:09 PM this is why minimum wage increases have been sluggish for 7 years. Don't know about the UK, but here in the USA, federal minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation since 1968 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZU3wfjtIJY).We're going on 50 years of stagnating wages coupled with ever-increasing inflation. Is it really any wonder that the wealth is being concentrated at the top (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM)? Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: nicetry on July 05, 2014, 06:43:53 AM I love a guy that creates a whole long freaking post to talk about PoW being "backed" by energy when he has no clue what "backed" even means
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361813.msg7624335#msg7624335 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361813.msg7624335#msg7624335) To be backed by energy, your exchange rate back to energy cannot change, just like when dollar was backed by gold until the 1970s (http://money.howstuffworks.com/currency7.htm (http://money.howstuffworks.com/currency7.htm)). It has to be set at a constant exchange rate and be guaranteed by some kind of entity that you can exchange the coin back to "energy cost" that it ORIGINALLY took to produce these coins. Your oh-so-dear PoW coin values fluctuates with no regard whatsoever to what energy costs to produce these coins. And it isn't backed by anybody. A perfect analogy for your flawed argument is like saying "just because a stock X is dollar denominated (traded in US dollars), it is backed by the US Dollars" (and somehow that prevents it from dropping in value). Yes it is worth a certain amount of US dollars but that amount is always changing. A stock can be worth $50 one day and drop to $1 the next if people loses confidence in that stock (or even $0 if the company goes bankrupt). The value of the US Dollar does not affect the stock price or vice versa. Same thing with PoW coins. If people loses confidence in a coin, no matter if it's PoW (or even PoS for that matter, but i'm only concentrating on your flawed premise, which is what your argument is based on), it is going to drop regardless, no matter how much "energy" you put into making this coin a week ago, or a month ago, or a year ago. This is the proof that there is NO "BACKING" of any kind from energy. Plus no entity would guarantee that "backing" of yours. Don't talk about stuff that's over your head please. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: balanghai on July 05, 2014, 06:50:23 AM Deep thought. Good read anyway. :)
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 05, 2014, 12:48:52 PM I love a guy that creates a whole long freaking post to talk about PoW being "backed" by energy when he has no clue what "backed" even means https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361813.msg7624335#msg7624335 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361813.msg7624335#msg7624335) To be backed by something, your exchange rate back to energy cannot change, just like when dollar was backed by gold until the 1970s. It has to be set at a constant exchange rate and be guaranteed by some kind of entity that you can exchange the coin back to "energy cost" that it ORIGINALLY took to produce these coins. Your oh-so-dear PoW coin values fluctuates with no regard whatsoever to what energy costs to produce these coins. A perfect analogy for your flawed argument is like saying "just because a stock X is dollar denominated, it is backed by the US Dollars" (and somehow that prevents it from dropping in value). Yes it is worth a certain amount of US dollars but that amount is always changing. A stock can be worth $50 one day and drop to $1 the next if people loses confidence in that stock. The dollar value does not affect the stock price or vice versa. Same thing with PoW coins. If people loses confidence in a coin, no matter if it's PoW (or even PoS for that matter, but i'm only concentrating on your flawed premise, which is what your argument is based on), it is going to drop regardless, no matter how much "energy" you put into making this coin. This is why there is NO "BACKING" of any kind from energy. Plus no entity would guarantee that "backing" of yours. Don't talk about stuff that's over your head please. back when bank notes were backed by gold. you could never swap a bank note for the true value of gold. firstly the exchanger would look at the speculated price, then the local spot price for the area and add on their own admin fee. meaning a £10 would get you £8 of true gold value. this is why people didnt really put gold under their bed and preferred to stick with bank notes as it was perceived as better value. now bringing it to crypto currencies.. POW stops bitcoin falling too far.. because miners who have actual costs in mining, would be too stupid to sell at too much of a loss. so lets put this into perspective mining costs have been calculated to be between $500 and $600 (dependent on electric, investment amount, size of reward person gets by being on the right/wrong pool), then as it reaches the exchanges, then comes the speculation and profiteering. adding another $50-$100 ontop. so just like the gold backed bank note. bitcoin IS backed by POW costs, because this month bitcoin refuses to go below $500 (which has been proven). in both cases there is a variance of 0%-20% but thats speculation/profiteering. but there is proof that POW costs do factor into the value of bitcoin, and the fact that bitcoin is over $500 due to it costing atleast that to mine them.. bitcoins true value is not $1 with $640 speculation, meaning bitcoin can drop and stay dropped to $1.. it can swing up and down, but on average it will be at or above mining costs because smart miners will refuse to sell at a lose, thus keping the prices on average above mining costs (excluding the random crackpot that dumps coin for a temporary crash..) but as i say ON AVERAGE the bitcoin value and mining costs do tally.. just watch out if someone makes a multi-terrahash miner that can mine a bitcoin for lets say $100.. then you will see the miners selling coins instantly, crashing the price to $100-$150 to grab profits.. but luckily i dont think that will happen.. what makes me laugh is when people true to say bitcoin is not backed by POW, and bank notes are not backed by minimum wage/cost of living (+/- upto 20% speculation).. these people can never actually make an articulate argument using examples and numbers to say what bank notes and bitcoins is backed up by, in their opinion Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: EtherCoin on July 05, 2014, 01:37:56 PM +1000
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: nicetry on July 05, 2014, 04:47:03 PM Remember basic Physics you can not create something for nothing Right now it costs $600 Dollar to generate a Bitcoin, someone has done $600 Dollars worth of work, thats a promise. If someone has done $600 dollar worth of honest work for you, are you going to pay him? If a miner sells below cost he will not be a miner for long, if the profit is huge others will join. I don't need to be Einstein to figure out if a Bitcoin sells for $1000 and i can produce it for $600 i will produce. Retarded argument. "someone has done $600 dollars worth of work". Are you assuming that it ALWAYS took $600 of work to produce these coins? What if bitcoin price drops to $300 the next day, are you going to change your argument to "someone has done $300 dollars worth of work"? How is that "backing" exactly? Do you even know how many bitcoins were produced when the production cost was only $10, $50, and $100 (hint, a whole lot more than when the BTCs that were produced at $600)? Your argument would be partially correct if bitcoin was a PERISHABLE consumable commodity, where the end buyer chooses to consume the commodity or modify it into some other kind of product, such as coffee, corn, etc. And the original commodity is used up in the process of production (i.e. no longer exists). If this is the case, the original producer of the commodity will always take the production cost into consideration. And I stress perishable because the commodity has a very short lifespan if not consumed, hence the commodity price *SHOULD* closely follow the production cost because the production cost happened just *recently*. Unlike your flawed argument that bitcoin "cost $600 to produced", which is obviously not true for coins made 2 years ago, last year, or even 6 months ago. And I said *partially* correct. This is because even in the case of these perishable consumable commodities, the price is still mostly driven by supply/demand. Think about it. If the market demand stays constant for corn, and there is a GREAT harvest for corn. Corn supply will greatly exceed demand, and the price will drop. This is where the importance of *perishable* part comes in. If the farmer cannot sell the corn in time, it will go bad, hence he has to reduce the price even if it meant that the production cost exceeds the prices he sells at (i.e. selling at a loss). So the lesson for you today is that production cost is only a small factor in determining market price, even for perishable consumable commodities (which BTC is obviously not, since once it's mined, it's mined, it does not expire.) Everything is driven by supply/demand. So there is no backing from production costs whatsoever. Furthermore, you don't even bother to analyze what is the average cost to produce all bitcoins, instead of the current cost of production, which makes your entire argument fall apart in 2 seconds (i'm just really sad no one else pointed this out, tells you the average IQ of people on this forum). Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: nicetry on July 05, 2014, 04:51:12 PM bitcoins true value is not $1 with $640 speculation, meaning bitcoin can drop and stay dropped to $1.. it can swing up and down, but on average it will be at or above mining costs because smart miners will refuse to sell at a lose, thus keping the prices on average above mining costs (excluding the random crackpot that dumps coin for a temporary crash..) but as i say ON AVERAGE the bitcoin value and mining costs do tally.. Franky, just read my most recent post. You need to learn a thing or two about production cost, and what it really took to product ALL BITCOINS ON AVERAGE. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 05, 2014, 05:13:48 PM bitcoins true value is not $1 with $640 speculation, meaning bitcoin can drop and stay dropped to $1.. it can swing up and down, but on average it will be at or above mining costs because smart miners will refuse to sell at a lose, thus keping the prices on average above mining costs (excluding the random crackpot that dumps coin for a temporary crash..) but as i say ON AVERAGE the bitcoin value and mining costs do tally.. Franky, just read my most recent post. You need to learn a thing or two about production cost, and what it really took to product ALL BITCOINS ON AVERAGE. have a read of my post and learn a thing or two about the production cost, and what it really took to produce ALL GOLD ON AVERAGE.. gold 50 years ago was cheap, 100 years ago it was cheaper, its price does meander because there is a 20% speculation/profiteering going on.. the exact same as bitcoin.. between cost of production and demand so the cost that gold miners sold their gold at is linked to if they used a pickaxe or an excavator, single person or a team of people so the cost that btc miners sold their btc at is linked to if they used a CPU, GPU, FPGA or ASIC. single unit or server farm of units. in both cases this was the true value of the item in question.. which over time increases.. then in both cases add on about 20% of speculation/profiteering.. and you may see that true gold value (gold miners sell price) and tru bitcoin value (btc miners sell price) do have a noticeable trends and show a noticeable bases to follow. i personally do not judge bitcoin by its daily price. i do not base it on its high price. i believe true bitcoin value to be on the weekly, monthly or yearly average LOW PRICE. as being the price to back it by... so right now i say bitcoin is backed by a mining cost of $500. bank notes were not 100% backed by gold true value decades as gold prices fluctuated due to speculation/profiteering. today banknotes are not backed 100% by minimum wage as there is fluctuations in that too, such as tax and bank interest rates or fee's for withdrawal.. but in every case of trying to find true value of anything that is backed, their is always a 20%ish variance above proof of work. gold (miners labour+20% spot) banknotes(wage+20tax and fee's) bitcoin(miners costs+20% profitering) yet its proof of work labour that is what backs all/most things.. not supply and demand so if im wrong. you tell me what is bitcoin and bank notes backed by and explain it in detail! dont simply pretend to be smarter without actually showing an answer, rather than just trying to prove others wrong. if your going to say that its just backed by supply and demand, then you need to realise the supply and demand only affects the 20% speculation/profitering. when there is high demand. it may exceed 20% reaching maybe 300% (as sen at the december spike) and when there is alot of supply and lack of demand, the price would be at the average production cost level (very small or no profit). (as seen last month when cost of mining was in the $400 range and no one was selling below $400). but on average over a few years it is about 20% Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: EtherCoin on July 05, 2014, 05:17:31 PM I think you are wrong, nicetry.
While is true that two years ago the production cost was ridiculous compared with the current scenario, the reality is that miners will just not release BTCs for less than the cost they are forced to pay, sure there will be exceptional cases where people will have ninja access to hardware, power, etc. but on AVERAGE if the cost if mining a BTC is 600$ surely the miners will not sell under production cost + profit margin. This happen today at 600$ and the day of tomorrow when the mining cost of a single BTC is worth 1000$ then surely we will not see prices from miners dumping less than 1100-1200$. If I start mining today and it cost me 600$ to get a single coin, I will not give a shit about your "average production cost" arguments, and still push for getting ROI+profit. Now if things go south and the cost of mining BTCs its not worth anymore due to not enough supply/demand, the supply of BTCs would slow down also, making the current BTCs on the market even more valuable, wouldn't that counter the dive on supply/demand? So, it is indeed difficult to create examples of what would happen using other valuables as comparison, because BTC is quite unique in that aspect. I don't think supply/demand justify a 650$ value for a BTC... RIGHT NOW... do you? But tell that to the miners.. So, I think BTC is indeed POW'ed and the market reflects it. Anyway I am just a newb that started into cryptos just a month ago, I could be utterly wrong, but enjoyed writing this post anyway ;) Scholars feel free to correct me, I am in here to learn. (N00b question - Would it represent the same kind of cost for a mining operation to mine BTCs and to mine just for get the transactions confirmed? or is it an indivisible operation? - When all the BTCs get mined, how costly will be to keep mining to keep the Tx going, considering the miners will get just transaction fees as profit?) Eth. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: nicetry on July 05, 2014, 08:04:49 PM back when bank notes were backed by gold. you could never swap a bank note for the true value of gold. firstly the exchanger would look at the speculated price, then the local spot price for the area and add on their own admin fee. Another guy that wants to "invent" what "backed by" means. If the US Dollar is BACKED by gold, then the exchange rate is set by the US Treasury, 1 dollar for certain amount of gold. In effect, U.S Dollar price no longer fluctuates against gold; because for every dollar, there is an equivalent amount of gold kept at Ft. Knox. What is all this mumble jumble about speculated price and local spot price and admin fee??? What the heck are you talking about? Are you talking about today's U.S. Dollar? The US Dollar has been off the gold standard since the 1970s, aka US dollar is not backed by gold anymore. In fact, no currency is backed by gold anymore in today's world. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: lemfuture on July 05, 2014, 08:16:59 PM good read, while some alts have been pretty consistent, it is not so easy to knock them off anymore
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: nicetry on July 05, 2014, 08:19:08 PM Another big flaw in your arguments. Your posts all assume that the price of bitcoin is driven by production cost, but it is exactly the opposite. The price of bitcoin is actually driving production cost. Your $500-$600 figure all include the mining equipment costs, and what determines the equipment costs? You think the makers of these equipments price them according to their material cost? Yea fat chance. Why do you think BTC miners are all being sold/bought in BTC? Or at least priced according to BTCs?
Furthermore, cost of production in no way prevents a coin from dropping below production cost. Let's say something catastrophic happens, such as bitcoin gets attacked via 51%, or has a major fork, what prevents it from dropping below this magical $500 threshold of yours? And you think your miners will still cost the same amount of BTCs compared to before this drop? Why do you think all scrypt PoW coins drop in value so much lately such as aurora or doge or any other PoW? You think it's because the cost of production is low? Tell that to the thousands of people that bought the gridseed blades for $1600 just a couple of months ago. Value of BTC comes completely from confidence in the coin, just like any other PoW or PoS coin. But people's confidence is a lot higher in BTC than any other coins because BTC has been out there much longer. And if BTC falls below $500, the miner prices will adjust accordingly. And stop talking only about Bitcoin in your arguments. This guy created his long winded thread to tout all PoW coins. Why are most of the alt scrypt PoW coins dropping despite the production costs? Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 05, 2014, 08:58:40 PM back when bank notes were backed by gold. you could never swap a bank note for the true value of gold. firstly the exchanger would look at the speculated price, then the local spot price for the area and add on their own admin fee. Another guy that wants to "invent" what "backed by" means. If the US Dollar is BACKED by gold, then the exchange rate is set by the US Treasury, 1 dollar for certain amount of gold. In effect, U.S Dollar price no longer fluctuates against gold; because for every dollar, there is an equivalent amount of gold kept at Ft. Knox. What is all this mumble jumble about speculated price and local spot price and admin fee??? What the heck are you talking about? Are you talking about today's U.S. Dollar? The US Dollar has been off the gold standard since the 1970s, aka US dollar is not backed by gold anymore. In fact, no currency is backed by gold anymore in today's world. clever man.. read my posts again... gold 50 years ago i said.. and now minimum wage.. Quote from: nicetry Another big flaw in your arguments. Your posts all assume that the price of bitcoin is driven by production cost, but it is exactly the opposite. The price of bitcoin is actually driving production cost. Your $500-$600 figure all include the mining equipment costs, and what determines the equipment costs? You think the makers of these equipments price them according to their material cost? Yea fat chance. Why do you think miners are all being sold/bought in BTC? Or at least priced according to BTCs? price of bitcoin isnt driving production costs.. its production costs driving th price. because miners do not sell for a loss based on production cost not based on the changes of rigs costs.. for instance i have been running the same rig for 2 years.. whether it was priced at 60btc 2 years ago or 1btc today for the same gighash.. i dont change my goal sell price dependent on the rig cost.. i sell my coin dependent on my electric and time (production costs)+spot(profit) your trying to say that gold is not backed by the production cost+spot but gold is backed by dollars. because dollars pay for the excavator which then digs out the gold! so if an excavator costs $50k 2 months ago, and now advertised for $40k, no one in their right mind would sell 20% cheaper based on mining equipment price changes.. yes part of my production cost is the initial outlay of the rig) but has nothing to do with me changing my sell price if a rig producer changes their price day/weekly.. as thats irrelevant.. only when a person BUYS a rig, does that become part of production costs. again if i buy a rig today, and suddenly the manufacturer has a half price promotion tomorrow due to a bitcoin value change. im not going to reduce my sell price.. purely based on a manufacturers dailyt price change.. if production costs is $500 im selling for above $500 no lower, no matter what promotions or rig costs changes happen hours/days later Quote Furthermore, cost of production in no way prevents a coin from dropping below production cost. Let's say something catastrophic happens, such as bitcoin gets attacked via 51%, or has a major fork, what prevents it from dropping below this magical $500 threshold of yours? And you think your miners will still cost the same amount of BTCs compared to before this drop? im not saying that the speculation part will make some panicers sell at a loss, but on average the price if you actually looked at a chart, always evens out, to at or above mining cost, yes there are pumps and dumps, spikes and crashes, but they always recover to atlast mining cost+ levels.. take for instance november-december.. that was a spike 300% above mining costs. due to the "china wanna own the planet" positive speculation then it crashed to $600 due to china "not allowed to own it" negative speculation news, and then down to $400 mtgox.. but then it held.. ask yourself why wasnt bitcoin at $10 in march!!!! because true value was just shy of $400, and speculation averaged about $50 ontop.. today costs is a little above $500 and speculation (postive attitude) gives it atleast $120 speculation Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: doo on July 05, 2014, 09:03:54 PM Quote Why are most of the alt scrypt PoW coins dropping despite the production costs? Aren't the ASIC's producing coins much more efficient than the inefficient graphic cards? Miners can sell at a much lower price.Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 05, 2014, 09:12:54 PM Quote Why are most of the alt scrypt PoW coins dropping despite the production costs? Aren't the ASIC's producing coins much more efficient than the inefficient graphic cards? Miners can sell at a much lower price.back in the day of GPU, people were still paying $300 per GPU, couple hundred per motherboard etc, and setting up GPU farms.. now with more people mining although hash per penny/cent is cheaper, the amount of miners counteract you idea as instead of (example number only) 25 people mining gpu's getting 1btc each. now there are 10,000 people getting dust amounts each. so even if their rig cost $200 now and equivalent to 50 GPU's.. its meaningless as they have to share a 25btc reward with 10,000 people.. thus needing to buy many rigs to try getting back to owning 1BTC a block, or collectively hoarding coins to get a higher price to cover their production costs. miners a couple months ago had a $400 cost per coin.. they refused to sell, for less then the $400-$450.. and slowly the price started to increase because their hoarding attempt caused demand. then the miners that shut off their rigs at $400 turned them back on.. now due to more miners again, the costs are now $500+ which is a safe cost vs profit. if mining costs get to $600 and any hoarding attempt has not happened. then they will try to cause a price rise to ensure profit.. its a chain reaction.. but miners always try to keep some speculative buffer, after all they need some speculation ontop of costs.. as no one wants to work for no profit long term.. a day, week is acceptable. this is why you will see the occasional panic traders trying to push prices down below costs, but it never lasts long Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: ShakyhandsBTCer on July 06, 2014, 12:17:15 AM Quote Why are most of the alt scrypt PoW coins dropping despite the production costs? Aren't the ASIC's producing coins much more efficient than the inefficient graphic cards? Miners can sell at a much lower price.It would be more appropriate to say that ASICs can make SHA-256 calculations more efficiently then what CPUs and GPUs can. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: nicetry on July 06, 2014, 01:49:19 AM clever man.. read my posts again... gold 50 years ago i said.. and now minimum wage.. Gold 50 years means it was on the gold standard, read my post again, if it's gold standard, what the hell does speculative and spot price have to do with Dollar / Gold exchange rate? Stop making up stuff Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: nicetry on July 06, 2014, 01:51:10 AM And I just love your 20% speculation part of your argument, franky, you want other people to come up with statistics yet you are just making statistics up. Rofl.
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: nicetry on July 06, 2014, 02:31:12 AM for instance i have been running the same rig for 2 years.. whether it was priced at 60btc 2 years ago or 1btc today for the same gighash.. i dont change my goal sell price dependent on the rig cost.. i sell my coin dependent on my electric and time (production costs)+spot(profit) your trying to say that gold is not backed by the production cost+spot but gold is backed by dollars. because dollars pay for the excavator which then digs out the gold! so if an excavator costs $50k 2 months ago, and now advertised for $40k, no one in their right mind would sell 20% cheaper based on mining equipment price changes.. yes part of my production cost is the initial outlay of the rig) but has nothing to do with me changing my sell price if a rig producer changes their price day/weekly.. as thats irrelevant.. retarded logic. So your goal of selling BTC would always dependent on electricity and time regardless of how much you spent to buy the miner? How do you even price your time? This is just retarded thinking. I'm not even to bother to argue with you anymore. And you keep mentioning this $500-600 cost to produce BTC. Are you saying your time and electricity cost that much to produce each coin? And I'm not going to even delve into your convoluted/nonsensical logic. Simply put, the market for a coin does not care how much you put into producing the coins. And if you want to price your coin differently from the market price, the market is not going to care because either you will be 1. selling your coins way below market price. 2. fail to sell your coins because you are pricing them too high. Simplest test to prove you and Manfred wrong is that these other PoW coins, aside from BTC (since demand is fairly high for BTC), is that these coins going to drop in value regardless of electricity cost it took to mine them. These coins are going to drop in value because there is too much supply and not enough demand. And no, i'm not saying gold is backed by anything. Gold price is determined by supply/demand like everything is in a capitalist market. Learn some economics please. There is no "backing" unless someone guarantees a preset exchange rate to enable you convert two commodities/currencies back and forth. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 06, 2014, 03:14:51 AM it makes me laugh that you think you know what "backed by" means yet you have no hard facts, just your opinion to back up your theory.
try looking at some charts now and again, see the trends, try using a calculator and do some maths.. dont just reply based on an opinion your limited imagination dreamt up. hell people have even made calculators to work out mining profitabilty.. just to save you some time.. your supply and demand theory is high school level stuff. or as i prefer, the analogy of an orange. your theory is just the outer skin, yea you can hold it you can show people it, and thy will think thats all it consists of.. but you have not peeled away the skin and looked or felt the segments inside, the truly juicy and important things that make an orange, an orange. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: twiifm on July 06, 2014, 03:35:38 AM it makes me laugh that you think you know what "backed by" means yet you have no hard facts, just your opinion to back up your theory. try looking at some charts now and again, see the trends, try using a calculator and do some maths.. dont just reply based on an opinion your limited imagination dreamt up. hell people have even made calculators to work out mining profitabilty.. just to save you some time.. your supply and demand theory is high school level stuff. or as i prefer, the analogy of an orange. your theory is just the outer skin, yea you can hold it you can show people it, and thy will think thats all it consists of.. but you have not peeled away the skin and looked or felt the segments inside, the truly juicy and important things that make an orange, an orange. w currency "backed by" means "convertible to" nicetry is correct. gold & bitcoin price is speculative Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 06, 2014, 03:38:00 AM w currency "backed by" means "convertible to" nicetry is correct. gold & bitcoin price is speculative another non miner that thinks bitcoins are worth pennies but only sold for $640 due to dreams and hopes and nothing more... Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: twiifm on July 06, 2014, 04:38:16 AM w currency "backed by" means "convertible to" nicetry is correct. gold & bitcoin price is speculative another non miner that thinks bitcoins are worth pennies but only sold for $640 due to dreams and hopes and nothing more... Its worth whatever the market wants to pay at the time being. Its priced like any other commodity. But the price is volatile because there isn't a historic demand. The only business that needs bit coins are dealers like bit pay/ coin base & exchanges Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: BitProdigy on July 06, 2014, 04:55:56 AM A bitcoin sells for $600 when someone is willing to trade $600 for 1 BTC and someone with 1 BTC is will to trade it for $600. It is a value agreement, not a direct correlation between how much it cost in energy to create it.
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Jamie_Boulder on July 06, 2014, 06:06:30 AM A bitcoin sells for $600 when someone is willing to trade $600 for 1 BTC and someone with 1 BTC is will to trade it for $600. It is a value agreement, not a direct correlation between how much it cost in energy to create it. I don't think he was implying the value strictly comes from how much it costs to obtain it rather than just adding to the novel that Bitcoins concept has a superior logic than fiat when it comes to trading.Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Bitcoin Magazine on July 06, 2014, 09:07:36 AM PoW works. PoS works even better. Because work is not the issue, but stake in Bitcoin (PeerCoin) ;D
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: doo on July 06, 2014, 09:48:24 AM How can PoS work if towards the end everyone has his own coin to stake in. Hind OP (at least that is the conclusion i came to).
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: notbatman on July 06, 2014, 10:23:41 AM Sorry to throw water on the fire here but Bitcoin is backed by SHA256 encryption.
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Bitcoin Magazine on July 06, 2014, 10:56:46 AM Sorry to throw water on the fire here but Bitcoin is backed by SHA256 encryption. oh crap. now i just realized that! i guess we were just confused by what a bitcoin block chain really is? :) Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 06, 2014, 12:22:50 PM A bitcoin sells for $600 when someone is willing to trade $600 for 1 BTC and someone with 1 BTC is will to trade it for $600. It is a value agreement, not a direct correlation between how much it cost in energy to create it. cha ching.. this guy is atleast trying to peel away the orange skin.. now ask why would someone be willing to sell at $600 and not $2..... oh yea, cos it cost him $500 to make the coin and he wants $100 profit to cover his lifestyle (2 days wage). thus he is NOT willing to sell for less than $500 today.. but would prefer $100,000, but agree's on somewhere in the $500-$650 range as thats what buyers are offering, and it still means he is making profit. buyers are not willing to pay $100,000... but would prefer to pay 1c, but agree's to pay somewhere around the $500-$650 range as thats what sellers are offering.. thus the speculation is $500 and above the bitcoin price is not some random number based on a dream or hope. there is actual financial decisions being made and most miners are on the similar (i never said exact) cost/profiting mindset. so yea you will see some variance and volatility. but you will see alot of reluctance for anyone to sell for less then $500 right now.. so thats where speculation comes in. somewhere between $500 cost average for miners.. and the moon. most buyers are accepting $600-$650 at the moment.. but not yet willing to pay up to the moon for a bitcoin.. when you start to realise that those who hold bitcoin are not stupid enough to actually be willing to sell for $10, you'll realise that bitcoin wont fall to $10(on a permanent bases).. there would be too much resistance. the most you would expect from a intentional price dump from a large whale trying to sell at a loss INTENTIONALLY, is a small time period before it averages back to above $500.. for the thousands of miners that are not stupid, to sell for a loss, there maybe 1 idiot intentionally trying to crash the price.... but thats his loss. it makes me laugh when people think that prices and value are just random numbers based off nothing Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: chaosPT on July 06, 2014, 01:25:06 PM Remember basic Physics you can not create something for nothing There is no better promise than Energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it as it is universally recognised. To create a Proof of Work (PoW) coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. A Proof that work has been done. Right now it costs $600 Dollar to generate a Bitcoin, someone has done $600 Dollars worth of work, thats a promise. If someone has done $600 dollar worth of honest work for you, are you going to pay him? If a miner sells below cost he will not be a miner for long, if the profit is huge others will join. I don't need to be Einstein to figure out if a Bitcoin sells for $1000 and i can produce it for $600 i will produce. Not only the electric used to mine it is also the production of the chips, the engineers designing the chip of the algo........ https://i.imgur.com/UyGM0pN.jpg Litecoin is a backup of your real money just like you back up your wallet. It is gross negligence to have no backup. In case something drastic happens it's something of fall back onto, basically a insurance policy. It will always lag bitcoin, thats a fact. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9mmUIF2450P2yOW50K3eOhK6S0m32uzGtBhOB4842LhCrx2N1ug Gold and Silver is real money too, but it is awkward to give change, awkward to carry, awkward to store, awkward to sent.....awkward Everyone knows the fiat fake money and now is a new contender in town, PoS the little cousin. PoS only has value because of Bitcoin otherwise no one would buy it to it and there would be a fair chance the ponzi PoS would be outlawed. Some of us going to have a free lunch now, want to come along? It does not matter the style of initial distribution we use, the scam nxt or Blackcoins or any other the changes are only cosmetic and the end result is the same. For the heck of it let's use the nxt style 1. Create a anonymous account on a forum. 2. Announce to creation of a new coin and ask willing participants to sent a few satoshies worth of bitcoins, not to much we dont want to scam you of the real money, just enough so we can sent you your stake when ready. 3. Tell your friends, family....... to create numerous anonymous accounts on the forum and sent up to the maximum 1 bitcoin tell em to sent lots it is worth while and as they know you, the will. Now create several anonymous accounts yourself and sent bitcoins to yourself too. You and your friends have a total of 15 bitcoins sent and the others who have sent some "dust" did sent .15 of a bitcoin combined. 4. Now create the coin and sent everyone the millions of the new coin disrupted according to the bitcoins (satoshi's) sent 5. Start buying the coins of the early "investors" who have sent real money (bitcoin) to an aon on the internet. Yourself and your mates hold thigh so very soon the price rises and for the 100 million coins or so you sent to the early adaptors there is a real scramble. Soon the early "investors" can show massive gains and buy more and tell there friends also about this great staking 6. Some time has past and you have long ago recouped 1000 fold your bitcoins sent to yourself and cash out regularly as more and more new money flows in and you control 99% of available coins are the puppet-master and in full control of the market. Some one else realizes this and starts his one coin. He has a bigger budget to play with, can create a better website, change a few parameters and very soon the coin takes of too as some sheep now follow it too, just in case. An even bigger player follows the 6 steps above to create his coin with a fixed limited number to stake with. Some time passes, lots of new staking coins created all limited editions, of the endless created PoS coins. At some stage Microsoft or any other large player deceits it too will find use for another few millions in the bank account and follows the 6 steps above and when it cashes out will leave an even bigger number of bag holders behind. Next in line is the FED, whoha what a blockbuster the best staking coin ever, the pump phenomenal, gona have to jump on that train before it leaves. "BCNext" yeh we will follow you loyally. By no means must you be a big player to enter this game. If you make enough noise in you neighbourhood you too will find fools who part with money easy, geed will make sure of it just throw in the burley and fish will bite. Unlike PoW in PoS it does not matter when you start your money for nothing enterprise (creation of Proof of Stake coin), however it is to assume that sooner and not later the fools have run out of real money drying to have a stake in every new coin coming to market, because "just in case". Coins claiming to pay x interest can only to so when a bigger fool enters after all it has to come from somewhere. All the best claiming your stake of nothingness. The proper meaning for PoS is Proof of Scam (Po$) alternatively Proof of Stupidity . Inflation, among many other things stops new PoW coins in its tracks unless it cheats in some way to overcome it and it must be at the expense of something. The key element is how much hash power can any coin produce in the very very long term.(What is the block reward of a given coin in 50 years time). Investors (not the local gambler) will invest in a coin as long as they see growed, the coin needs a decent block reward for a long time to come. It all started in another tread with the question is PoS dead? The answer is, it is a stillbirth. Edit: According to coindesk it cost $597.23 to make a Bitcoin http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/ (http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/) The cost you were saying is the mining rig and electric cost + times correct ? Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 06, 2014, 02:48:01 PM 6. Some time has past and you have long ago recouped 1000 fold your bitcoins sent to yourself and cash out regularly as more and more new money flows in and you control 99% of available coins are the puppet-master and in full control of the market. exactly, who holds the coin is the dominant decider in a trade. and has more control of the price. its not like buyers can just shout out random amounts and a bitcoin holder hands it over without question.. miners wont hand it over unless its a price their willing to hand it over for.. Edit: According to coindesk it cost $597.23 to make a Bitcoin http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/ (http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/) The cost you were saying is the mining rig and electric cost + times correct ? coindesk also said citizens of bolivia and citizens of china cannot touch bitcoins by law... they kind of have half a story, but its not accurate.. the price if high electric and paying excess delivery and import tax makes the high end of $600, especially those small people that cant afford multiple rigs.. but those in group buys and area's of cheap electric, running farms (the majority of hash power and receivers of the biggest slices of bitcoin pie. have costs closer to $500.. but as i said multiple times.. its not exactly $500, it does vary. speculators (actual smart people who like to hype up the price for profit) always try to use high valuations, not low valuations. so for the 5th time true value is ROUGHLY $500 (as thats production cost on average(cheapest cost to mine)) anything above that is speculation, based on profiteering and other varying factors.. which on average for the last 4 years has been around 20% above production costs.. in short bitcoin is backed by 80% POW(production cost) 20% speculation. but comparing it to gold true value and spot.. 1920's bank notes gold value and fee's charges, taxes.. everyone just ignores the variable, and says its backed by the main measurement.. thus banknotes backed by gold(ignoring fee's and tax) decades ago, now backed by minimum wage(ignoring fee's and tax) bitcoin backed by POW(ignoring speculation) Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: doo on July 06, 2014, 07:02:52 PM Quote in short bitcoin is backed by 80% POW(production cost) 20% speculation. +1000I think production cost includes everything from the engineer designing the chip to producing the miner, electric, ....... Edit: Bitcoin should not be called virtual currency as this reveres to crap in game currency's and such, PoW currency is better suited Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Harley997 on July 06, 2014, 07:15:38 PM A bitcoin sells for $600 when someone is willing to trade $600 for 1 BTC and someone with 1 BTC is will to trade it for $600. It is a value agreement, not a direct correlation between how much it cost in energy to create it. cha ching.. this guy is atleast trying to peel away the orange skin.. now ask why would someone be willing to sell at $600 and not $2..... oh yea, cos it cost him $500 to make the coin and he wants $100 profit to cover his lifestyle (2 days wage). thus he is NOT willing to sell for less than $500 today.. but would prefer $100,000, but agree's on somewhere in the $500-$650 range as thats what buyers are offering, and it still means he is making profit. buyers are not willing to pay $100,000... but would prefer to pay 1c, but agree's to pay somewhere around the $500-$650 range as thats what sellers are offering.. thus the speculation is $500 and above the bitcoin price is not some random number based on a dream or hope. there is actual financial decisions being made and most miners are on the similar (i never said exact) cost/profiting mindset. so yea you will see some variance and volatility. but you will see alot of reluctance for anyone to sell for less then $500 right now.. so thats where speculation comes in. somewhere between $500 cost average for miners.. and the moon. most buyers are accepting $600-$650 at the moment.. but not yet willing to pay up to the moon for a bitcoin.. when you start to realise that those who hold bitcoin are not stupid enough to actually be willing to sell for $10, you'll realise that bitcoin wont fall to $10(on a permanent bases).. there would be too much resistance. the most you would expect from a intentional price dump from a large whale trying to sell at a loss INTENTIONALLY, is a small time period before it averages back to above $500.. for the thousands of miners that are not stupid, to sell for a loss, there maybe 1 idiot intentionally trying to crash the price.... but thats his loss. it makes me laugh when people think that prices and value are just random numbers based off nothing If there are not buyers willing to pay $600 for a bitcoin then they will not offer as much, and since miners need to pay for their electricity in advance (they use it and at this point they owe the electric company) they cannot wait an infinite time for willing buyers to offer $600. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 06, 2014, 08:46:53 PM The entire supply of bitcoin as of today is not from miners, part of the supply is from people who have previously purchased from miners (and purchased from people who have purchased from miners, and so on) and want to sell for other reasons. If there are not buyers willing to pay $600 for a bitcoin then they will not offer as much, and since miners need to pay for their electricity in advance (they use it and at this point they owe the electric company) they cannot wait an infinite time for willing buyers to offer $600. in your opinion, but 1) those that hold the product have the control of price.. try asking for a $30 bottle of whiskey and say to the shop.. i only have $2 give it to me.. see their response 2) not every bitcoin is on an exchange. those buying bitcoin as you say originally by it from a miner, and then of course (because they are smart investors) wont want to sell at a loss. this is then pre bought investors. also wanting to only sell at a price above the miners costs.. meaning those that bough yesterday and miners today can both find their lowest ask prices above mining costs, so now 3600 coins of yesterdays mining that sold for X will want to sell for X+1 atleast. and miners will also want to sell above X aswell.. 3)using point (1) i can put a buy order at $1, $10, $100 right now... yes i can ask for any small amount i want.. doesnt mean i wil get it.. 4) those with the coin have the control and the are the ultimate decider.. not the buyer.. sellers have their own prices in mind, they know ow valuable bitcoin is, so they are not dumb to sell for less (unless intentionally trying to cause a crash) so they have their minimum sell prices in mind and prefer prices higher then that. if you put all this data together and think logically that its a sellers market... not a buyers market.. you may understand.. and if it doesnt sell .. just like houses.. you hold onto it untill a better offer comes along.. no one is silly to sell a house for $10k just because someone says thats all thy have.. they wait it out until someone else comes along. and that folks is why some buyers are always screaming "i missed the boat" because they are the ones not matching sellers prices.. and think that bitcoin will crash to $10 Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: ButtCrack on July 07, 2014, 12:38:52 PM I don't think that traders care at all how a coin gets created, POS or POW, the value of any commodity/product is simply determined by supply and demand.
When NXT (or any other alt coin...) manage to escape from the exchanges and start to have a life outside in the real word, you will surely see prices and volumes going up. I guess we can call that a no brainer. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on July 07, 2014, 01:07:09 PM Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared ;D
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: ButtCrack on July 07, 2014, 01:32:01 PM Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared ;D As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 07, 2014, 01:45:17 PM Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared ;D As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS. research POS imagine a coindev premines. on launch he owns 1mill coins.. the first block mined at launch gives out 1000 coins.. guess who gets the majority stake of that post launch block...... the coin dev. now fast forward a bit. the coins are on exchanges. the exchange is hoarding 5mill coins out of 6mill circulation, because everyone deposited them into exchanges.. guess who holds the stake and is getting most of the rewards... the exchanges.. so lets pretend bitcoin was POS. right now satoshi meant to have 1mill coins, karpeles has 600k hidden, winklevoss have 200k, the gox trustee has 200k, coinbase and bitstamp estimated 600k each (2.6mill) so these guys are taking a nice 20% cut out of every block reward just by hoarding coins.. not to mention the other large investors not listed.. meaning that true miners are getting less.. POS is the invention of coindevs and exchanges to get more coin without doing any work.. its like employment. minimum wage employees do the hard work so their manager can sit on his fat ass getting paid a 6 figure salary.. by the time normal average joe have adequate supply of POS coin, by buying them on exchanges.. the coin devs ar happy, they have just grabbed valuable bitcoins from you. and left you holding a bag of rotton apples that are now worthless (price dump time)... ... how do you like them apples!! ... Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: ButtCrack on July 07, 2014, 03:05:25 PM Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared ;D As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS. research POS imagine a coindev premines. on launch he owns 1mill coins.. the first block mined at launch gives out 1000 coins.. guess who gets the majority stake of that post launch block...... the coin dev. now fast forward a bit. the coins are on exchanges. the exchange is hoarding 5mill coins out of 6mill circulation, because everyone deposited them into exchanges.. guess who holds the stake and is getting most of the rewards... the exchanges.. so lets pretend bitcoin was POS. right now satoshi meant to have 1mill coins, karpeles has 600k hidden, winklevoss have 200k, the gox trustee has 200k, coinbase and bitstamp estimated 600k each (2.6mill) so these guys are taking a nice 20% cut out of every block reward just by hoarding coins.. not to mention the other large investors not listed.. meaning that true miners are getting less.. POS is the invention of coindevs and exchanges to get more coin without doing any work.. its like employment. minimum wage employees do the hard work so their manager can sit on his fat ass getting paid a 6 figure salary.. by the time normal average joe have adequate supply of POS coin, by buying them on exchanges.. the coin devs ar happy, they have just grabbed valuable bitcoins from you. and left you holding a bag of rotton apples that are now worthless (price dump time)... ... how do you like them apples!! ... Hasn't this been the case with almost any alt coins, regardless of POS or POW ? Seems to me that indeed as you also said the devs and some "lucky" early adopters are the real winners. Thats why I treat alt coins as pyramid games or scams if you like. The great plus for POS is that you don't have to invest or do much work like POW to make a nice profit. Effectivly because of this an even better profit margin ! Average Joe as such, will get stuck with some rotten apples indeed, POS or POW. Bottom line how to create an fair and even distribution ? So even average Joe who has no clue about POW or POS doesn't get screwed with these apples. Anyway I think most ppl who visits BTT already got the idea... Pyramid game, pump and dump, get in fast and get out even faster before it collapses. Average Joe in the meantime better stick to BTC, that is if they already heard about it. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: jonald_fyookball on July 07, 2014, 03:05:50 PM Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared ;D As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS. research POS imagine a coindev premines. on launch he owns 1mill coins.. the first block mined at launch gives out 1000 coins.. guess who gets the majority stake of that post launch block...... the coin dev. now fast forward a bit. the coins are on exchanges. the exchange is hoarding 5mill coins out of 6mill circulation, because everyone deposited them into exchanges.. guess who holds the stake and is getting most of the rewards... the exchanges.. so lets pretend bitcoin was POS. right now satoshi meant to have 1mill coins, karpeles has 600k hidden, winklevoss have 200k, the gox trustee has 200k, coinbase and bitstamp estimated 600k each (2.6mill) so these guys are taking a nice 20% cut out of every block reward just by hoarding coins.. not to mention the other large investors not listed.. meaning that true miners are getting less.. POS is the invention of coindevs and exchanges to get more coin without doing any work.. its like employment. minimum wage employees do the hard work so their manager can sit on his fat ass getting paid a 6 figure salary.. by the time normal average joe have adequate supply of POS coin, by buying them on exchanges.. the coin devs ar happy, they have just grabbed valuable bitcoins from you. and left you holding a bag of rotton apples that are now worthless (price dump time)... ... how do you like them apples!! ... Proof of Stake also is subject to a "nothing-at-stake" attack, as has been explained by some technical experts. And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints and hardforks. Although, perhaps in the future Bitcoin may be able to add a POS element to its POW to bolster security. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on July 07, 2014, 03:10:21 PM Proof of Stake also is subject to a "nothing-at-stake" attack, as has been explained by some technical experts. And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints and hardforks. You're just parrotting others. Vitalik Buterin explains here what he means by 'nothing-at-stake' and gets answers why NXT is not subject to this, the answers that he's apparently satisfied with: https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=3343.msg60114#msg60114 Other PoS coins may differ. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: jonald_fyookball on July 07, 2014, 03:18:13 PM Proof of Stake also is subject to a "nothing-at-stake" attack, as has been explained by some technical experts. And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints and hardforks. You're just parrotting others. Vitalik Buterin explains here what he means by 'nothing-at-stake' and gets answers why NXT is not subject to this, the answers that he's apparently satisfied with: https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=3343.msg60114#msg60114 Other PoS coins may differ. I understand the NaS problem, it is not that complicated to understand. As far as Vitalik Buterin being satisfied with NXT security, what he actually said in the post you referenced was this: Quote I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on July 07, 2014, 03:23:12 PM Quote So basically you use transactions-as-proof-of-stake. That sounds reasonable; it's as good as I can think of at this point, although it has the moderately-serious-but-not-fatal flaws that I described in my On Stake article. I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics. This is what he said, but of course you only included the part that you liked :) The whitepaper draft is available here: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-whitepaper/completely-revamped-nxt-whitepaper-draft/ But since NXT is still under active development and will be for a while, the whitepaper will stay in draft mode for a while too. The source code itself is a whitepaper. No successful attack for 8 months is proof enough that no such thing as N@S exists, at least in the case of NXT. Other PoS coins may differ. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: jonald_fyookball on July 07, 2014, 03:30:55 PM Quote So basically you use transactions-as-proof-of-stake. That sounds reasonable; it's as good as I can think of at this point, although it has the moderately-serious-but-not-fatal flaws that I described in my On Stake article. I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics. This is what he said, but of course you only included the part that you liked :) The whitepaper draft is available here: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-whitepaper/completely-revamped-nxt-whitepaper-draft/ But since NXT is still under active development and will be for a while, the whitepaper will stay in draft mode for a while too. The source code itself is a whitepaper. No successful attack for 8 months is proof enough that no such thing as N@S exists, at least in the case of NXT. Other PoS coins may differ. just because an attack hasn't happened isn't any kind of proof. anyway, good luck with nxt, let me know when you can buy stuff with it. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on July 07, 2014, 03:37:52 PM just because an attack hasn't happened isn't any kind of proof. anyway, good luck with nxt, let me know when you can buy stuff with it. Well, double-spending attacks and selfish mining in Bitcoin have happened multiple times, and they don't seem to be any kind of proof to you either ;D I am sure you yourself will have a hard time thinking of what kind of proof you would be satisfied with. I can't buy anything much with Bitcoin either except hosting and domains which I can buy with paypal faster and cheaper because there are more companies that accept paypal. Overstock and other two companies what are those - tigerdirect and newegg, don't ship international, so this is no argument. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on July 07, 2014, 03:50:49 PM The best coin that suits the definition of 'honest money' as implied by the original post is Myriadcoin. It can be mined just like any PoW coin, and it's not hijacked by ASICs and not vulnerable to 51% attacks.
But nobody give a damn about Myriadcoin, because nobody give a damn about honest money. The only 'honest' money people like to call that is the kind they have a big stash of. That's so hypocritical and at the same time something that can be understood because it's natural instincts to protect your vested interests. So who are you trying to fool, OP? Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: jonald_fyookball on July 07, 2014, 04:21:30 PM just because an attack hasn't happened isn't any kind of proof. anyway, good luck with nxt, let me know when you can buy stuff with it. Well, double-spending attacks and selfish mining in Bitcoin have happened multiple times, and they don't seem to be any kind of proof to you either ;D I am sure you yourself will have a hard time thinking of what kind of proof you would be satisfied with. I can't buy anything much with Bitcoin either except hosting and domains which I can buy with paypal faster and cheaper because there are more companies that accept paypal. Overstock and other two companies what are those - tigerdirect and newegg, don't ship international, so this is no argument. I think you are talking FUD or you don't know what you are talking about. When did Selfish mining attack happen? Do you have a reference to that? As far as merchant adoption, go here: http://coinmap.org/ Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on July 07, 2014, 04:58:25 PM Selfish mining has been going on for a long time, but it's sort of stealth, you have to watch blockchain to notice it.
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: jonald_fyookball on July 07, 2014, 05:01:09 PM Selfish mining has been going on for a long time, but it's sort of stealth, you have to watch blockchain to notice it. It's only achievable by a large pool, and there's no incentive to do so unless one wants to double spend. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on July 07, 2014, 05:02:36 PM It's only achievable by a large pool, and there's no incentive to do so unless one wants to double spend. Correct, by a large pool. There is a good incentive to orphan competitors' blocks and gain more rewards for yourself. That's what is called selfish mining. I've seen this happen a few times and other people have seen it, and there are articles available on the issue, please google it. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: franky1 on July 07, 2014, 05:06:38 PM every miner is selfish
1) those that get bitcoins selfishly keep them 2) those who want bitcoins selfishy argue because they should have them 3) if those that had them gave them to those that want them.. then its all the same.. (1) and (2) still apply its a never ending circle of selfishness Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on July 07, 2014, 05:11:12 PM No, it's not about this.
Please feel free to educate yourself: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/ http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/01/15/detecting-selfish-mining/ Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: jonald_fyookball on July 07, 2014, 05:12:01 PM It's only achievable by a large pool, and there's no incentive to do so unless one wants to double spend. Correct, by a large pool. There is a good incentive to orphan competitors' blocks and gain more rewards for yourself. That's what is called selfish mining. You won't gain more rewards. You cannot orphan a competitor's block unless you hide your own block. And when you hide your own block, you risk someone else will solve it and the network starts building on that chain. If that chain becomes the longest one, you lost the block reward you would have gotten from doing normal mining. So you lose as much as you would gain and your mining profits would be more unevenly distributed. There is nothing to gain from trying to hide blocks unless you are trying to build the longest chain as part of a double spend attack. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on July 07, 2014, 05:13:46 PM You won't gain more rewards. You will. Exactly by hiding blocks and mining a longer chain and then orphaning competitors' blocks. See the links above and watch the blockchain for confirmation. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: jonald_fyookball on July 07, 2014, 05:30:00 PM You won't gain more rewards. You will. Exactly by hiding blocks and mining a longer chain and then orphaning competitors' blocks. See the links above and watch the blockchain for confirmation. I took a look at the paper. They may be correct that you can sometimes gain an advantage by using selfish mining techniques, although I didn't review all of their math and assumptions. You will notice, that the assumed advantages become more pronounced with pools above 30%, which are also capable of performing double spending attacks. None of this means "Bitcoin is broken". It simply reaffirms the fact that large pools are not a great idea. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on July 07, 2014, 05:39:46 PM I said above that yes, selfish mining issue is related to large pools. The incentive is extra block rewards and taking those rewards away from competitors by orphaning their blocks. "Bitcoin is broken" is just the title of the article, we are not discussing the title, we are discussing the issue of selfish mining, which is real and does happen. You can go on burying your head in the sand, it doesn't make this issue go away. The outcome is smaller miners go out of business, large pools become larger.
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: jonald_fyookball on July 07, 2014, 05:44:41 PM I said above that yes, selfish mining issue is related to large pools. The incentive is extra block rewards and taking those rewards away from competitors by orphaning their blocks. "Bitcoin is broken" is just the title of the article, we are not discussing the title, we are discussing the issue of selfish mining, which is real and does happen. You can go on burying your head in the sand, it doesn't make this issue go away. The outcome is smaller miners go out of business, large pools become larger. It's a free market. People can choose to not participate in such big pools, which are a bad idea anyway. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Coinler on July 26, 2014, 09:31:17 PM Remember basic Physics you can not create something for nothing There is no better promise than Energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it as it is universally recognised. To create a Proof of Work (PoW) coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. A Proof that work has been done. Right now it costs $600 Dollar to generate a Bitcoin, someone has done $600 Dollars worth of work, thats a promise. If someone has done $600 dollar worth of honest work for you, are you going to pay him? If a miner sells below cost he will not be a miner for long, if the profit is huge others will join. I don't need to be Einstein to figure out if a Bitcoin sells for $1000 and i can produce it for $600 i will produce. Not only the electric used to mine it is also the production of the chips, the engineers designing the chip of the algo........ https://i.imgur.com/UyGM0pN.jpg Litecoin is a backup of your real money just like you back up your wallet. It is gross negligence to have no backup. In case something drastic happens it's something of fall back onto, basically a insurance policy. It will always lag bitcoin, thats a fact. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9mmUIF2450P2yOW50K3eOhK6S0m32uzGtBhOB4842LhCrx2N1ug Gold and Silver is real money too, but it is awkward to give change, awkward to carry, awkward to store, awkward to sent.....awkward Everyone knows the fiat fake money and now is a new contender in town, PoS the little cousin. PoS only has value because of Bitcoin otherwise no one would buy it to it and there would be a fair chance the PoSpyramid scheme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme) would be outlawed. After all the interest payment must come from somewhere, yes the bigger fool until it collapses. Some of us going to have a free lunch now, want to come along? It does not matter the style of initial distribution we use, the scam nxt or Blackcoins or any other the changes are only cosmetic and the end result is the same. For the heck of it let's use the nxt style 1. Create a anonymous account on a forum. 2. Announce to creation of a new coin and ask willing participants to sent a few satoshies worth of bitcoins, not to much we dont want to scam you of the real money, just enough so we can sent you your stake when ready. 3. Tell your friends, family....... to create numerous anonymous accounts on the forum and sent up to the maximum 1 bitcoin tell em to sent lots it is worth while and as they know you, the will. Now create several anonymous accounts yourself and sent bitcoins to yourself too. You and your friends have a total of 15 bitcoins sent and the others who have sent some "dust" did sent .15 of a bitcoin combined. 4. Now create the coin and sent everyone the millions of the new coin disrupted according to the bitcoins (satoshi's) sent 5. Start buying the coins of the early "investors" who have sent real money (bitcoin) to an aon on the internet. Yourself and your mates hold thigh so very soon the price rises and for the 100 million coins or so you sent to the early adaptors there is a real scramble. Soon the early "investors" can show massive gains and buy more and tell there friends also about this great staking 6. Some time has past and you have long ago recouped 1000 fold your bitcoins sent to yourself and cash out regularly as more and more new money flows in and you control 99% of available coins are the puppet-master and in full control of the market. Some one else realizes this and starts his one coin. He has a bigger budget to play with, can create a better website, change a few parameters and very soon the coin takes of too as some sheep now follow it too, just in case. An even bigger player follows the 6 steps above to create his coin with a fixed limited number to stake with. Some time passes, lots of new staking coins created all limited editions, of the endless created PoS coins. At some stage Microsoft or any other large player deceits it too will find use for another few millions in the bank account and follows the 6 steps above and when it cashes out will leave an even bigger number of bag holders behind. Next in line is the FED, whoha what a blockbuster the best staking coin ever, the pump phenomenal, gona have to jump on that train before it leaves. "BCNext" yeh we will follow you loyally. By no means must you be a big player to enter this game. If you make enough noise in you neighbourhood you too will find fools who part with money easy, geed will make sure of it just throw in the burley and fish will bite. Unlike PoW in PoS it does not matter when you start your money for nothing enterprise (creation of Proof of Stake coin), however it is to assume that sooner and not later the fools have run out of real money drying to have a stake in every new coin coming to market, because "just in case". Coins claiming to pay x interest can only to so when a bigger fool enters after all it has to come from somewhere. All the best claiming your stake of nothingness. The proper meaning for PoS is Proof of Scam (Po$) alternatively Proof of Stupidity . Inflation, among many other things stops new PoW coins in its tracks unless it cheats in some way to overcome it and it must be at the expense of something. The key element is how much hash power can any coin produce in the very very long term.(What is the block reward of a given coin in 50 years time). Investors (not the local gambler) will invest in a coin as long as they see growed, the coin needs a decent block reward for a long time to come. It all started in another tread with the question is PoS dead? The answer is, it is a stillbirth. Edit: According to coindesk it cost $597.23 to make a Bitcoin http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/ (http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/) my view is that this is a silly perspective aimed at devaluing the demand for POS coins. encryption provides value, and nothing supports that statement more than the current demand for anon transaction technologies in coins.. all of which have enjoyed massive growth in short spaces of time and endured with stable pricing as well at much higher price points. competitor coins without POS cant say the same. and after all.. investors only care about profit. if they can generate POS blocks on an encrypted network then the encryption itself provides value for the coin but also give them the added benefit of storing for themselves a sort of savings bank account at home. A Safe that grows money through generating interest on investment! this is a fantastic incentive for investment and everyone i think knows it. added to that, POS networks provide much greater transaction speeds and this is also highly demanded as im sure, many like myself.. absolutely LOATHE bitcoin transaction times. which can take ridiculously long.. sometimes more than an hour to get a transaction confirmed. I am yet to see a legitimate argument against POS technology. all are theoretical and can be classed as FUD in my view. ill await a response from those who believe in these theoretical exploits against POS networks and a reason why encryption cannot also provide value for a network besides the consumption of energy. Best Regards, Coinler Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: illymoka on July 28, 2014, 04:49:36 AM Comparing PoW to PoS seems silly and deceptive to me.
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: cccarnation on July 28, 2014, 05:21:11 AM Comparing PoW to PoS seems silly and deceptive to me. Could you give any reason for that? I am really interested in that since i have no idea why one should not compare two methods to secure the coin network. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: allthingsluxury on July 28, 2014, 05:45:40 AM Gold, Silver, Bitcoin = Honest money.
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: FlowerMatt on July 28, 2014, 09:21:36 AM The article implies that mining difficulty drives the price, but it's more complex than that. Due to the effects mentioned in the article, miners will join and leave based on profitability, therefore the hashrate will follow the price to some extent (or rather mining investment per unit mining return).
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: 666uazan on July 28, 2014, 09:23:24 AM The article implies that mining difficulty drives the price, but it's more complex than that. Due to the effects mentioned in the article, miners will join and leave based on profitability, therefore the hashrate will follow the price to some extent (or rather mining investment per unit mining return). The difficulty drives the cost to mine a bitcoin, which drives the local-minimum price after a burst bubble. Price is driven by a mix of supply-and-demand, but also the price to mine a coin. When demand outstrips supply, price increases well beyond the cost to mine a bitcoin. However, when the market crashes after a bubble, it doesn't crash below the fundamental cost to mine a bitcoin - and if it does - not by much, and not for long. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: FlowerMatt on July 28, 2014, 09:23:35 AM Some good points but the conclusions seem a bit confused
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: FlowerMatt on July 28, 2014, 09:32:20 AM The article implies that mining difficulty drives the price, but it's more complex than that. Due to the effects mentioned in the article, miners will join and leave based on profitability, therefore the hashrate will follow the price to some extent (or rather mining investment per unit mining return). The difficulty drives the cost to mine a bitcoin, which drives the local-minimum price after a burst bubble. Price is driven by a mix of supply-and-demand, but also the price to mine a coin. When demand outstrips supply, price increases well beyond the cost to mine a bitcoin. However, when the market crashes after a bubble, it doesn't crash below the fundamental cost to mine a bitcoin - and if it does - not by much, and not for long. Hm... interesting Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Riniaiokl on July 28, 2014, 10:00:39 AM However, when the market crashes after a bubble, it doesn't crash below the fundamental cost to mine a bitcoin - and if it does - not by much, and not for long. Isn't this because, if the prices drops, miners leave and the difficulty falls, making it cheaper to mine a bitcoin? Looking at it this way, the cost to mine a bitcoin falls to the market prices. That is, price of a bitcoin drives the cost of mining. How do you argue that there is a fundamental cost to mine a bitcoin when there is changing difficulty? Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: doo on July 28, 2014, 01:44:52 PM Quote Isn't this because, if the prices drops, miners leave and the difficulty falls, making it cheaper to mine a bitcoin? Looking at it this way, the cost to mine a bitcoin falls to the market prices. That is, price of a bitcoin drives the cost of mining. If you have a miner and the price drops the purchasing price of the miner did not change. How do you argue that there is a fundamental cost to mine a bitcoin when there is changing difficulty? Gold, Silver, Bitcoin = Honest money. +1 Why would you pay someone for doing no work = PoS Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Hazir on July 28, 2014, 02:12:54 PM While you can't create something material from nothing but bitcoin is not in 'material things' category. After all it is just line of code. I think it CAN't be fully transparent and stable currency without proper protection. Something that can disappear after one power surge is not really trustworthy...
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: manfred on July 28, 2014, 06:11:50 PM While you can't create something material from nothing but bitcoin is not in 'material things' category. After all it is just line of code. I think it CAN't be fully transparent and stable currency without proper protection. Something that can disappear after one power surge is not really trustworthy... Bitcoin is a intangible good just like your shoes are a tangible good. You will have a hard time doing any meaningful exchange of wealth on a global scale with any tangible (physical) good. Who creates a good does not matter, after all when was the last time you made your own shoe. Most people are quite happy to wear a shoe made by a multimillion dollar big company. What matters is that you can be assured fair work has been done, you can not cheat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangible_good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangible_good) Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: CLains on August 03, 2014, 04:38:56 PM The advantage with PoW is NOT that it is somehow "backed by work," what gives bitcoin its value is its superior usefulness to that of fiat.
The real advantage with PoW is that you have an independent means of quantifying effort to secure the network and distribute coins. Unfortunately, in its current state bitcoin has become centralized through mining pools and industrial mining (centralization of mining increases efficiency). Because of this, and because bitcoin uses 10% of its market cap atm to pay the miners, people are innovating and trying new types of blockchains hoping that we hit upon something that can destroy the old economical system and replace it with a faster, more fair, open, secure, decentralized and lower cost system. Bitcoin is a vision, bitcoin is a dream we all have, and anyone who holds bitcoin can easily "vote" with their money to incentivize research into potential new technologies that can bring value into this helpless world of ours. Not all altcoins are pump and dump scams, many are lead by visionaries who, inspired by Satoshi, set out to try doing things a little differently. Bitcoin does not have to be the be-all end-all. Bitcoin is our basecamp. So lets explore and figure out how to bring the bitcoin vision into reality. If government corrupts the central mining pools we all lose; if we have ten thousand blockchain tentacles each with new innovations there is no stopping us. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on August 03, 2014, 04:45:55 PM Energy doesn't back PoW, because you cannot redeem bitcoins for a guaranteed amount of energy, like you could exchange bank notes for a specified amount of gold in the 19th century. Gold was then backing bank notes and if a bank printed too many bank notes, it couldn't service all customers' requests and went bankrupt.
In case of PoW coins energy doesn't back them, because there is no entity that guarantees any pay back with a certain amount of kWhs. The exchange rate is free floating. Hence, PoW only has utility value, not intrinsic value. People value crypto currencies for what they can do with them. With that in mind, it doesn't matter for users whether it's PoW or PoS, as long as the crypto does what they need it to. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: 2good2betrue on August 04, 2014, 09:32:18 AM It's becoming clearer and clearer to see that this is as much a unique selling point of Blackcoin and other POS coins as fast transaction times and interest gained from staking etc.
We should definitely hammer it home that Blackcoin is not just a ruthless, profit hungry lambo-coin, but also an efficient, secure and resource light coin too. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Tenarlty on August 04, 2014, 09:34:31 AM We should definitely hammer it home that Blackcoin is not just a ruthless, profit hungry lambo-coin In fact we should drop that bullshit altogether. It only makes people suspicious. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: CokeCoin on August 04, 2014, 12:10:10 PM We should definitely hammer it home that Blackcoin is not just a ruthless, profit hungry lambo-coin In fact we should drop that bullshit altogether. It only makes people suspicious. +1 it was fun for a while but i think that the whole luxury BS has got to go if we want to be taken seriously Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Summer,69 on August 04, 2014, 12:32:29 PM We should definitely hammer it home that Blackcoin is not just a ruthless, profit hungry lambo-coin In fact we should drop that bullshit altogether. It only makes people suspicious. Then they look at the less than fair initial coin distribution... Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: RepublicSpace on August 04, 2014, 12:41:08 PM We should definitely hammer it home that Blackcoin is not just a ruthless, profit hungry lambo-coin In fact we should drop that bullshit altogether. It only makes people suspicious. Then they look at the less than fair initial coin distribution... You base this claim on what? Have you seen how the initial PoW coins where created and how un-evenly distributed they were? Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: manfred on August 04, 2014, 04:53:11 PM Proof-of-stake is “fundamentally flawed”. (https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf) its from AnoyMint's post two days ago https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557732.msg8166539#msg8166539 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557732.msg8166539#msg8166539) Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on August 04, 2014, 06:19:18 PM Proof-of-stake is “fundamentally flawed”. (https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf) its from AnoyMint's post two days ago https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557732.msg8166539#msg8166539 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557732.msg8166539#msg8166539) That's only a theory. Not to mention it doesn't take into account different implementations of PoS. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: counter on August 04, 2014, 10:10:42 PM While you can't create something material from nothing but bitcoin is not in 'material things' category. After all it is just line of code. I think it CAN't be fully transparent and stable currency without proper protection. Something that can disappear after one power surge is not really trustworthy... We give what we choose to use as a currency value. We decide to trust it as a vuable item and store of weatlh. the native americans used sea shells and bartered. An got along fine, my point is the confidence of the people is what really maters not philosophizing the difference of a tangible currency or the like. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: manfred on August 05, 2014, 09:30:30 AM Proof-of-stake is “fundamentally flawed”. (https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf) its from AnoyMint's post two days ago https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557732.msg8166539#msg8166539 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557732.msg8166539#msg8166539) That's only a theory. Not to mention it doesn't take into account different implementations of PoS. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on August 05, 2014, 09:43:40 AM If someone does a honest fair amount of work and the other stands around with his hands in his pockets, who are you going to pay? I am going to pay the one whose product has more utility value and more useful functions. I don't care what they did to create the product, I care about the properties of product. I don't agree that PoS developers stand around with their hands in their pockets. I could say that about Bitcoin developers actually, Bitcoin is essentially the same as 5 years ago, not a single function was added on top of the primary function that Satoshi created. If a PoS crypto follows the same path, then it's of no use. But if a PoS crypto adds new functions, useful to people, then it stands above others. As for miners wasting electricity - that's not work, that's just wasting valuable resources of the planet. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: LiQio on August 19, 2014, 06:42:14 AM ... Edit: According to coindesk it cost $597.23 to make a Bitcoin http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/ (http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/) All miners stopped? Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: LiQio on August 19, 2014, 07:01:50 AM If someone does a honest fair amount of work and the other stands around with his hands in his pockets, who are you going to pay? OK, who will you pay (a drink) in the following situation? A. hard working sweaty roadman (with a bit of a potbelly) B. blonde long-legged DD stunner (standing alongside with hands in her pockets) (right, just what I expected) Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: devphp on August 19, 2014, 07:03:07 AM OK, who will you pay (a drink) in the following situation? A. hard working sweaty roadman (with a bit of a potbelly) B. blonde long-legged DD stunner (standing alongside with hands in her pockets) (right, just what I expected) haha, that's a good one, just like I said ;D I am going to pay the one whose product has more utility value and more useful functions. I don't care what they did to create the product, I care about the properties of product. But a brunette for me please, long-legged DD is fine though ;D Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: LiQio on August 19, 2014, 07:06:26 AM ^ no problem I'll go with the blonde, you take the brunette - oh and manfred have fun with the sweaty roadman ;D
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: boraf on August 19, 2014, 07:07:07 AM ... Edit: According to coindesk it cost $597.23 to make a Bitcoin http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/ (http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/) And the price is less than 500 now. Big mining farms will go bust soon. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: Scoremaster on August 19, 2014, 12:39:09 PM Remember basic Physics you can not create something for nothing There is no better promise than Energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it as it is universally recognised. To create a Proof of Work (PoW) coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. A Proof that work has been done. Right now it costs $600 Dollar to generate a Bitcoin, someone has done $600 Dollars worth of work, thats a promise. If someone has done $600 dollar worth of honest work for you, are you going to pay him? If a miner sells below cost he will not be a miner for long, if the profit is huge others will join. I don't need to be Einstein to figure out if a Bitcoin sells for $1000 and i can produce it for $600 i will produce. Not only the electric used to mine it is also the production of the chips, the engineers designing the chip of the algo........ https://i.imgur.com/UyGM0pN.jpg Litecoin is a backup of your real money just like you back up your wallet. It is gross negligence to have no backup. In case something drastic happens it's something of fall back onto, basically a insurance policy. It will always lag bitcoin, thats a fact. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9mmUIF2450P2yOW50K3eOhK6S0m32uzGtBhOB4842LhCrx2N1ug Everyone knows the fiat fake money and now is a new contender in town, PoS the little cousin. PoS only has value because of Bitcoin otherwise no one would buy it to it and there would be a fair chance the PoS pyramid scheme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme) would be outlawed. After all the interest payment must come from somewhere, yes the bigger fool until it collapses. Some of us going to have a free lunch now, want to come along? It does not matter the style of initial distribution we use, the scam nxt or Blackcoins or any other the changes are only cosmetic and the end result is the same. For the heck of it let's use the nxt style 1. Create a anonymous account on a forum. 2. Announce to creation of a new coin and ask willing participants to sent a few satoshies worth of bitcoins, not to much we dont want to scam you of the real money, just enough so we can sent you your stake when ready. 3. Tell your friends, family....... to create numerous anonymous accounts on the forum and sent up to the maximum 1 bitcoin tell em to sent lots it is worth while and as they know you, the will. Now create several anonymous accounts yourself and sent bitcoins to yourself too. You and your friends have a total of 15 bitcoins sent and the others who have sent some "dust" did sent .15 of a bitcoin combined. 4. Now create the coin and sent everyone the millions of the new coin disrupted according to the bitcoins (satoshi's) sent 5. Start buying the coins of the early "investors" who have sent real money (bitcoin) to an aon on the internet. Yourself and your mates hold thigh so very soon the price rises and for the 100 million coins or so you sent to the early adaptors there is a real scramble. Soon the early "investors" can show massive gains and buy more and tell there friends also about this great staking 6. Some time has past and you have long ago recouped 1000 fold your bitcoins sent to yourself and cash out regularly as more and more new money flows in and you control 99% of available coins are the puppet-master and in full control of the market. Some one else realizes this and starts his one coin. He has a bigger budget to play with, can create a better website, change a few parameters and very soon the coin takes of too as some sheep now follow it too, just in case. An even bigger player follows the 6 steps above to create his coin with a fixed limited number to stake with. Some time passes, lots of new staking coins created all limited editions, of the endless created PoS coins. At some stage Microsoft or any other large player deceits it too will find use for another few millions in the bank account and follows the 6 steps above and when it cashes out will leave an even bigger number of bag holders behind. Next in line is the FED, whoha what a blockbuster the best staking coin ever, the pump phenomenal, gona have to jump on that train before it leaves. "BCNext" yeh we will follow you loyally. By no means must you be a big player to enter this game. If you make enough noise in you neighbourhood you too will find fools who part with money easy, geed will make sure of it just throw in the burley and fish will bite. Unlike PoW in PoS it does not matter when you start your money for nothing enterprise (creation of Proof of Stake coin), however it is to assume that sooner and not later the fools have run out of real money drying to have a stake in every new coin coming to market, because "just in case". Coins claiming to pay x interest can only to so when a bigger fool enters after all it has to come from somewhere. All the best claiming your stake of nothingness. The proper meaning for PoS is Proof of Scam (Po$) alternatively Proof of Stupidity. Proof-of-stake is “fundamentally flawed”. https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf (https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf) It all started in another tread with the question is PoS dead? The answer is, it is a stillbirth. Quote If someone does a honest fair amount of work and the other stands around with his hands in his pockets, who are you going to pay? Inflation, among many other things stops new PoW coins in its tracks unless it cheats in some way to overcome it and it must be at the expense of something. The key element is how much hash power can any coin produce in the very very long term.(What is the block reward of a given coin in 50 years time). Investors (not the local gambler) will invest in a coin as long as they see growed, the coin needs a decent block reward for a long time to come. Edit: According to coindesk it cost $597.23 to make a Bitcoin http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/ (http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/) Edit 2: Bitcoin is a intangible good just like your shoes are a tangible good. You will have a hard time doing any meaningful exchange of wealth on a global scale with any tangible (physical) good. Who creates a good does not matter, after all when was the last time you made your own shoe. Most people are quite happy to wear a shoe made by a multimillion dollar big company. What matters is that you can be assured fair work has been done, you can not cheat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangible_good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangible_good) "The price of any commodity tends to gravitate toward the production cost" -Satoshi When you buy and sell gold and silver there is no physical exchange, for a long time it was done online or through notes. the location of the gold and silver doesn't really ever change so that is wrong on your part. The government spends X energy to make the money as well guaranteeing that up to $100,000 in your bank account will be kept safe regardless of how negligent that bank you keep it at is. I don't see any exchanges doing that, when an exchange is negligent you lose it all if you were trading there. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: V8x8d on August 19, 2014, 05:09:15 PM Remember basic Physics you can not create something for nothing There is no better promise than Energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it as it is universally recognised. To create a Proof of Work (PoW) coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. A Proof that work has been done. Right now it costs $600 Dollar to generate a Bitcoin, someone has done $600 Dollars worth of work, thats a promise. If someone has done $600 dollar worth of honest work for you, are you going to pay him? If a miner sells below cost he will not be a miner for long, if the profit is huge others will join. I don't need to be Einstein to figure out if a Bitcoin sells for $1000 and i can produce it for $600 i will produce. Not only the electric used to mine it is also the production of the chips, the engineers designing the chip of the algo........ https://i.imgur.com/UyGM0pN.jpg Litecoin is a backup of your real money just like you back up your wallet. It is gross negligence to have no backup. In case something drastic happens it's something of fall back onto, basically a insurance policy. It will always lag bitcoin, thats a fact. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ9mmUIF2450P2yOW50K3eOhK6S0m32uzGtBhOB4842LhCrx2N1ug Everyone knows the fiat fake money and now is a new contender in town, PoS the little cousin. PoS only has value because of Bitcoin otherwise no one would buy it to it and there would be a fair chance the PoS pyramid scheme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme) would be outlawed. After all the interest payment must come from somewhere, yes the bigger fool until it collapses. Some of us going to have a free lunch now, want to come along? It does not matter the style of initial distribution we use, the scam nxt or Blackcoins or any other the changes are only cosmetic and the end result is the same. For the heck of it let's use the nxt style 1. Create a anonymous account on a forum. 2. Announce to creation of a new coin and ask willing participants to sent a few satoshies worth of bitcoins, not to much we dont want to scam you of the real money, just enough so we can sent you your stake when ready. 3. Tell your friends, family....... to create numerous anonymous accounts on the forum and sent up to the maximum 1 bitcoin tell em to sent lots it is worth while and as they know you, the will. Now create several anonymous accounts yourself and sent bitcoins to yourself too. You and your friends have a total of 15 bitcoins sent and the others who have sent some "dust" did sent .15 of a bitcoin combined. 4. Now create the coin and sent everyone the millions of the new coin disrupted according to the bitcoins (satoshi's) sent 5. Start buying the coins of the early "investors" who have sent real money (bitcoin) to an aon on the internet. Yourself and your mates hold thigh so very soon the price rises and for the 100 million coins or so you sent to the early adaptors there is a real scramble. Soon the early "investors" can show massive gains and buy more and tell there friends also about this great staking 6. Some time has past and you have long ago recouped 1000 fold your bitcoins sent to yourself and cash out regularly as more and more new money flows in and you control 99% of available coins are the puppet-master and in full control of the market. Some one else realizes this and starts his one coin. He has a bigger budget to play with, can create a better website, change a few parameters and very soon the coin takes of too as some sheep now follow it too, just in case. An even bigger player follows the 6 steps above to create his coin with a fixed limited number to stake with. Some time passes, lots of new staking coins created all limited editions, of the endless created PoS coins. At some stage Microsoft or any other large player deceits it too will find use for another few millions in the bank account and follows the 6 steps above and when it cashes out will leave an even bigger number of bag holders behind. Next in line is the FED, whoha what a blockbuster the best staking coin ever, the pump phenomenal, gona have to jump on that train before it leaves. "BCNext" yeh we will follow you loyally. By no means must you be a big player to enter this game. If you make enough noise in you neighbourhood you too will find fools who part with money easy, geed will make sure of it just throw in the burley and fish will bite. Unlike PoW in PoS it does not matter when you start your money for nothing enterprise (creation of Proof of Stake coin), however it is to assume that sooner and not later the fools have run out of real money drying to have a stake in every new coin coming to market, because "just in case". Coins claiming to pay x interest can only to so when a bigger fool enters after all it has to come from somewhere. All the best claiming your stake of nothingness. The proper meaning for PoS is Proof of Scam (Po$) alternatively Proof of Stupidity. Proof-of-stake is “fundamentally flawed”. https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf (https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf) It all started in another tread with the question is PoS dead? The answer is, it is a stillbirth. Quote If someone does a honest fair amount of work and the other stands around with his hands in his pockets, who are you going to pay? Inflation, among many other things stops new PoW coins in its tracks unless it cheats in some way to overcome it and it must be at the expense of something. The key element is how much hash power can any coin produce in the very very long term.(What is the block reward of a given coin in 50 years time). Investors (not the local gambler) will invest in a coin as long as they see growed, the coin needs a decent block reward for a long time to come. Edit: According to coindesk it cost $597.23 to make a Bitcoin http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/ (http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/) Edit 2: Bitcoin is a intangible good just like your shoes are a tangible good. You will have a hard time doing any meaningful exchange of wealth on a global scale with any tangible (physical) good. Who creates a good does not matter, after all when was the last time you made your own shoe. Most people are quite happy to wear a shoe made by a multimillion dollar big company. What matters is that you can be assured fair work has been done, you can not cheat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangible_good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangible_good) "The price of any commodity tends to gravitate toward the production cost" -Satoshi When you buy and sell gold and silver there is no physical exchange, for a long time it was done online or through notes. the location of the gold and silver doesn't really ever change so that is wrong on your part. The government spends X energy to make the money as well guaranteeing that up to $100,000 in your bank account will be kept safe regardless of how negligent that bank you keep it at is. I don't see any exchanges doing that, when an exchange is negligent you lose it all if you were trading there. Why would you trust somebody else with your gold/silver? Governments have no intention of bailing out bank accounts in the future (they are insolvent), hence the introduction of bail-ins. If you think your bank account is safe you are mental. Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: allthingsluxury on August 19, 2014, 05:13:30 PM Honest money is gold, silver and cryptos.
Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: rikiramses on August 19, 2014, 05:22:19 PM Honest money is gold, silver and cryptos. yes i agree with you that is very honestand i think its will be always get special palace in my heart :D Title: Re: Real honest Money Post by: GSI_Kristjan on September 24, 2014, 04:47:36 PM Anything that has a value also has a risk of losing its value partially or completely. Crypto-currency is definately the future. It takes years for the world to adjust to it.
There is so much you can do with crypto-currencies and its blockchain. Proof of work or proof of stake - it doesnt matter. Both have pro's and cons. The potential is huge. Take a look at our Pipshares idea. Crypto-currencies do not have to be volatile and unsafe. They can be tied to other values. |
