Press Release - TradeHill, Inc. Files Suit Against Dwolla, Inc.

[kiba]

Here we go, publicity! Hope to see an article on this in ArsTechnica....

I wish we can get some positive publicity for a change.

[jimbobway]

From all of my experiences with Dwolla it seems like they act like a corporation, have no sense of humility, and resembles PayPal.

Many of us have been through the TradeHill fiasco last year.  From what I know about TradeHill they seem to have a lot of integrity since I've seen them in videos, in the forum posts, and in emails.

It is ridiculous that anyone would think they engineered their own downfall last year, waited for the $5 million investment in Dwolla, so they could sue them for $2 million.  This is defintely not a case of "sour grapes" as Dwolla's angel investor has said.

TradeHill posted some of their data on Dwolla, if I remember correctly.  Dwolla however has not said very much.

[kiba]

From all of my experiences with Dwolla it seems like they act like a corporation, have no sense of humility, and resembles PayPal.

Many of us have been through the TradeHill fiasco last year.  From what I know about TradeHill they seem to have a lot of integrity since I've seen them in videos, in the forum posts, and in emails.

Yeah. They're real communicators and owe up to their mistakes.

Corporation are to me, highly defaced, zero authenticity, every single channel managed by PR, etc. When people shout at the corporations, the corporation doesn't seem to reply and keep doing the same thing oblivious to people's problem.

I like people who actually talk to their customer, very casual, and no nonsense. That's reassuring to me.

[jwzguy]

If you're asking for their books, you're probably not going to get those.

If you want more information, I would start with the Bitcoin Show episode where Bruce had them on live to explain what was happening and try to warn other exchanges. They played some phonecalls with Dwolla that didn't make Dwolla look very respectable.

As a high volume trader I talked to all of the guys that ran Tradehill on a regular basis, mainly as a client, but also as a fellow bitcoin entrepreneur. They are very nice and genuine people. This kind of relationship isn't "hard proof" but I know who I was dealing with and everything they said during that time, as well as now, sounds very credible to me. Not only that, but they had no reason to lie. I trusted them before, during, and ever since with more money than I could afford to lose, and they've always been very transparent and quick to respond (unlike some exchanges.)

So that's why I don't feel it's very fair to call my support for Tradehill "blind fanboyism." I'm an appreciative long-term client, and without working directly for them (hence having access to their private records), I don't think I could reasonably be more informed.

I wasn't trying to be inflammatory with my statement about Dwolla - I guess it came across that way, but I just assumed most people who looked at this thread would have seen more of what I've seen and understand where I was coming form.

[Kluge]

Many thoughts running through my mind after reading this. Considering shorting BTC. Dwolla probably relies a lot on Bitcoin-related businesses for revenue, but all the trouble they're having might push them toward dumping all Bitcoin-businesses as Paxum did instead of fixing their problems. Dwolla's a pretty small start-up... Hopefully they can't afford to dis-associate from Bitcoin. I know a LOT of people who use Dwolla. It's pretty darn close to free for US citizens to get cash into an exchange, and it's the only method I've ever used to transfer money into an exchange. So close to seeing a sustained push through $5, too. Hmm.

Either way - good luck, TH.

[BitPay Business Solutions]

Dwolla has $5 million now.  I would expect them to settle and move on.  Good luck!

[Matthew N. Wright]

If you're asking for their books, you're probably not going to get those.

If you want more information, I would start with the Bitcoin Show episode where Bruce had them on live to explain what was happening and try to warn other exchanges. They played some phonecalls with Dwolla that didn't make Dwolla look very respectable.

As a high volume trader I talked to all of the guys that ran Tradehill on a regular basis, mainly as a client, but also as a fellow bitcoin entrepreneur. They are very nice and genuine people. This kind of relationship isn't "hard proof" but I know who I was dealing with and everything they said during that time, as well as now, sounds very credible to me. Not only that, but they had no reason to lie. I trusted them before, during, and ever since with more money than I could afford to lose, and they've always been very transparent and quick to respond (unlike some exchanges.)

So that's why I don't feel it's very fair to call my support for Tradehill "blind fanboyism." I'm an appreciative long-term client, and without working directly for them (hence having access to their private records), I don't think I could reasonably be more informed.

I wasn't trying to be inflammatory with my statement about Dwolla - I guess it came across that way, but I just assumed most people who looked at this thread would have seen more of what I've seen and understand where I was coming form.

My bad. I'll read up more on it before I say anything else here.

[kiba]

Many thoughts running through my mind after reading this. Considering shorting BTC. Dwolla probably relies a lot on Bitcoin-related businesses for revenue, but all the trouble they're having might push them toward dumping all Bitcoin-businesses as Paxum did instead of fixing their problems. Dwolla's a pretty small start-up... Hopefully they can't afford to dis-associate from Bitcoin. I know a LOT of people who use Dwolla. It's pretty darn close to free for US citizens to get cash into an exchange, and it's the only method I've ever used to transfer money into reserves. So close to seeing a sustained push through $5, too. Hmm.

Either way - good luck, TH.

We're a small portion of their business now and they are never really part of our community to begin with.

[benjamindees]

Just for anyone who might be new or who might have missed the controversy between TradeHill and Dwolla last summer, this should give you an idea.  According to the datestamp, I made it on July 27th 2011.  That was after reading this thread posted by TradeHill, explaining their side of things.

[cypherdoc]

Many thoughts running through my mind after reading this. Considering shorting BTC. Dwolla probably relies a lot on Bitcoin-related businesses for revenue, but all the trouble they're having might push them toward dumping all Bitcoin-businesses as Paxum did instead of fixing their problems. Dwolla's a pretty small start-up... Hopefully they can't afford to dis-associate from Bitcoin. I know a LOT of people who use Dwolla. It's pretty darn close to free for US citizens to get cash into an exchange, and it's the only method I've ever used to transfer money into reserves. So close to seeing a sustained push through $5, too. Hmm.

Either way - good luck, TH.

We're a small portion of their business now and they are never really part of our community to begin with.

i was there when Dwolla first got started last Spring and i think Bitcoin made a huge contribution to their initial business push.  i remember calling them and they were thrilled by the business brought in by Bitcoin users.  it was off to the races for them after that.

[Matthew N. Wright]

You guys might want to make your statements known to TradeHill in case Dwolla claims otherwise.

[the founder]

Jered,

Good luck man!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/07/idUS94197123920120207

“When we started, I was kind of naive,” said Milne. “I just called up the regulators and asked how we should do this. Luckily they didn’t shut us down. So yeah, we have a good dialogue going on with Federal Reserve.”

'nough said?

[cypherdoc]

http://www.betabeat.com/2012/03/06/dwolla-releases-statement-on-that-bitcoin-lawsuit/

TH hasn't served the lawsuit yet to Dwolla.

[proudhon]

http://www.betabeat.com/2012/03/06/dwolla-releases-statement-on-that-bitcoin-lawsuit/

TH hasn't served the lawsuit yet to Dwolla.

Bad form.

[BitcoinPorn]

I wish I noticed this when I signed up.



Good luck TH.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/07/idUS94197123920120207

“When we started, I was kind of naive,” said Milne. “I just called up the regulators and asked how we should do this. Luckily they didn’t shut us down. So yeah, we have a good dialogue going on with Federal Reserve.”

[Littleshop]

http://www.betabeat.com/2012/03/06/dwolla-releases-statement-on-that-bitcoin-lawsuit/

TH hasn't served the lawsuit yet to Dwolla.

From that page, bolding added by me:

"Most all merchants are well aware of the problem, which is why we’ve always had something in our terms of service about chargebacks since Day One. Notably, there are certain types of businesses and marketplaces that are continued targets for illegal activity and, just like we work hard to protect and improve our community, a similar expectation should be assumed on behalf of merchants participating in high-risk industries. If any merchant continues to be a source of systemic fraud and we cannot come to an agreement, we will always take the appropriate actions."
--------------------------

I do not have copies of the TOS, but I did read it and do not remember anything about chargebacks, and do remember them saying that there were no chargebacks.  Posting something like the above, that may be proven to be untrue in the courtroom looks like a bad start on Dwolla's part.  Does anyone have the OLD TOS from Dwolla?

[Raoul Duke]

What's wrong with this? http://www.crunchbase.com/company/dwolla/diff/1/2 Anyone else sees it?

Compare the upload date in that diff screenshot with the upload date of the screenshots on the current page
http://www.crunchbase.com/company/dwolla/

For some further digging http://www.crunchbase.com/company/dwolla/revisions

They're cleaning up their tracks, and doing a lousy job while at it...
 

[JoelKatz]

I understand arming yourself with as many complaints as possible but don't think there is any legal reason why they would be held responsible for a private agreement related to bitcoin.com.

The damages are a consequence of their fraud. If someone intentionally and wrongfully throws a rock through your window when you're not home, and as a result, the rain damages your painting, shouldn't they also be responsible for the damage to the painting? Replacing the window doesn't make you whole.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I understand arming yourself with as many complaints as possible but don't think there is any legal reason why they would be held responsible for a private agreement related to bitcoin.com.

The damages are a consequence of their fraud. If someone intentionally and wrongfully throws a rock through your window when you're not home, and as a result, the rain damages your painting, shouldn't they also be responsible for the damage to the painting? Replacing the window doesn't make you whole.

Right, and when that rain water causes a letter you were writing to your aunt in Georgia to be destroyed telling her not to marry Mr. Butler because he is a gold digger and the wedding goes on as planned, later ending in a divorce that costs your aunt half of her estate, should the rock thrower pay for what the aunt lost in the other contract as well?

See how I did that? Using an equally ridiculous, non relevant extreme when we're talking about merchant/service contracts?

There is no way they are liable for the personal agreements that TradeHill makes. I don't care what sob story you tell a judge.

Paypal has made me lose my apartment by locking all my money once, and made one of my internet businesses bankrupt for lack of fluidity when locking my accounts for a ridiculous non-reason. Does that mean that I should charge Paypal for the hotel bill? Wouldn't that be lovely if the law worked that way? You could get everyone's first born child.