Gotta vent - eBay/Paypal suck! AND some people are just scum

[rezilient]

Ok maybe this is not the right place, so mods you can move this if you need to, I just needed to vent.

I sell Bitcoin/Scrypt miners on eBay and on my website (don't worry I'm not going to plug it here) and most transactions have been pretty smooth, at least for the first half of this year.

But recently I've been getting these NEW customers that have no clue what they're doing, just trying to make a quick buck, scam me, and take unfair advantage of the eBay/PayPal buyer protection to the fullest.  I know how most people feel about mining rig vendors BUT trust me when I say I take care of my customers 100%.  I'm just a low level reseller of Chinese products like LKETC and Innosilicon.  I just get people the hardware they need at a fair price and offer them much needed warranties when things get difficult.  Anyway back to the story..

About a month ago I sold a 90MH/s scrypt ASIC machine via eBay to a customer in Hungary. My cost on those machines was close to $10K so you can imagine it's a high risk transaction already, especially since it was paid via PayPal. The machine got held in customs because he asked us to put a lower value on the customs declaration which is usually a bad idea. After receiving the machine about 10 days later the customer thanks me and says the machine is working as expected, all good. A couple days later I see a new dispute open on eBay from my Hungarian friend and he's says (quote) "It will never reach the 100% ROI! So it is a very bad investment indeed! So please refund my money!"  Of course my response is quoting my eBay auction which says we cannot be held responsible for Exchange and difficulty fluctuations, yadda yadda.  He did not respond for another 12 days.  Then I see a message from eBay saying "This case was decided in the buyer's favor, so we've asked the buyer to return the item to you for a full refund".  WTF.  This is after Litecoin/Dogecoin have been in a deep slump and the machine is worth 3/4 what it was before.  And nobody is buying Scrypt hardware at this point.  I got on the phone with eBay right away and the guy pissed me off further by saying "honestly we really hate dealing with all these bitminer cases, and usually we will favor the buyer in these situations".  Completely ignoring that my ad says we cannot be held responsible for market fluctuations, my ad has a NO REFUND policy, that I have 100% positive feedback and ALWAYS close my disputes with a happy customer.  Okay now it has been 6 days since eBay made their decision and this guy still has not shipped the machine.  Guaranteed he's sitting there mining with my hardware with a big smile on his face making LTC until the very last day, then he'll drop that shit in a box and kick it to the post office.  I'll be lucky if it even powers on once it arrives to me.

I have 3 similar cases open right now with customers who bought Scrypt ASIC hardware and are having buyers remorse. 

PSA: If you don't know what you are doing DO NOT buy thousands of dollars worth of mining equipment!

/rant

[DannyElfman]

This is a huge problem with ebay and paypal. They do not have a way to account for the fact that miners are deprecating assets and that giving the customer a full refund would essentially be giving them free money.

I would say that you should price your machines with the understanding that you may be forced to allow a buyer to receive a full refund.

IMO you got off easy as many paypal/ebay scams involve the selling loosing everything, at least you will have your original product that you started with.   

[Meuh6879]

not a surprise ... (i use regulary ebay/maypal and known the chargeback system)

[rezilient]

This is a huge problem with ebay and paypal. They do not have a way to account for the fact that miners are deprecating assets and that giving the customer a full refund would essentially be giving them free money.

I would say that you should price your machines with the understanding that you may be forced to allow a buyer to receive a full refund.

IMO you got off easy as many paypal/ebay scams involve the selling loosing everything, at least you will have your original product that you started with.   

Ok hmm, now I'm worried that he might be able to figure out a way to keep the machine.  Apparently eBay will not refund him until he ships the machine and the item shows as delivered (hopefully with signature confirmation).

The funny thing is last year I stupidly bought an old BMW sight unseen on eBay and got it shipped to me.  The seller did not disclose that it had a completely burnt clutch, hole in the fuel tank, and was not driveable.  I contacted eBay via their vehicle protection program right away.  Since the vehicle was 10+ years old they told me to screw off.  Nice..

[SnakePlisken]

I ditched ebay and paypal a long time ago. all i need is for amazon to start taking btc (newegg is a good start but we still need amazon) and then i will ditch my credit card too

[commandrix]

Dude, why on Earth are you selling mining equipment using eBay/Paypal?! I thought everybody who did that were paid in Bitcoin. And at least with Bitcoin you don't have to worry about chargebacks. You're right, some people are just scum for doing that to you. And of course it is NOT your fault that it's getting harder to make a profit mining Bitcoin.

[rezilient]

Dude, why on Earth are you selling mining equipment using eBay/Paypal?! I thought everybody who did that were paid in Bitcoin. And at least with Bitcoin you don't have to worry about chargebacks. You're right, some people are just scum for doing that to you. And of course it is NOT your fault that it's getting harder to make a profit mining Bitcoin.

I was already selling a few other things on eBay and was overall happy with the experience and ease, till recently. Now I've been burned on the buyer and seller side. 

The problem is that most people who want to get into mining don't have BTC yet so PayPal is 90% of my sales unfortunately.   I am looking forward to a day when the advantages of Bitcoin makes people see why it makes more sense.

[Duetschpire]

I'm very sorry to hear about your issue. I'm yet to hear about anyone who's happy with their PayPal/eBay experience...

[bigasic]

What really makes me sick is that he will be able to mine a few weeks at least with your gear and then get a full refund. You should figure out how many litecoins he should have made and bring it to his attention, not like it would matter, but at least he will know that you know he is screwing you over big time.

Wouldn't be nice if we could just say "this machine wont make as much as I thought" and get a full refund. I wish Butterfly labs had that philosophy, lol.. Ebay/paypal is 100 percent pro customer and totally against vendors. They know that they can screw vendors over and since Ebay is so big, the vendor doesn't have many options than to take it.

[fryarminer]

Dude, that's just painful. That's a lot of dough to lose. I was scammed yesterday but nothing compared to your loss!!!

And then there's all that talk about Paypal wanting to implement bitcoin. REALLY?! I'm not feeling it!!!!

[rezilient]

Dude, that's just painful. That's a lot of dough to lose. I was scammed yesterday but nothing compared to your loss!!!

And then there's all that talk about Paypal wanting to implement bitcoin. REALLY?! I'm not feeling it!!!!

I think it's safe to say they WON'T be an early adopter. More like kicking and screaming when they have no choice.  And by then there will be a thousand better solutions!

[bgibso01]

Dude, that's just painful. That's a lot of dough to lose. I was scammed yesterday but nothing compared to your loss!!!

And then there's all that talk about Paypal wanting to implement bitcoin. REALLY?! I'm not feeling it!!!!

I agree...definitely not feeling it.  I had some bozo in TX 'buy' an S1 and said it didn't match the description.  Sent me back a box of parts from AsicMiner Blades and Ebay refunded him and told me since he sent something back, that was all that was required.

After a little bitching and submitting some photos, they went ahead and credited me back, but the guy still has the S1 and Ebay is out the money.  I looked him up and found he was already arrested on some stealing charges.  Emailed the Sheriff just to let him know about the incident. Just being a concerned citizen and all

[Ron~Popeil]

As some one said above you should price the risk in. Also consider offering a nice discount for paying in bit coin since you are assuming less risk. If ti is a big enough discount you might get some of the shadier buyers to buy bit coin to make their purchase.

[LavaWave]

Unfortunately the whole experience for the seller in regards to eBay/PayPal is totally unfair! The buyer has all the rights and through my experiences with them, very rarely does a seller come out on top on these issues! Sorry for your troubles!

[factor280]

Damn man. I hope thats not the case and this guy doesn't ship on time. Sorry to hear that. Some people are true low lifes. Speaking as an honest person who deals with paypal for the occasional BTC, I can tell you that there are a few of us who do it right.

[oaxaca]

My story is similar, but with a twist. 

The time between the original purchase and my getting the miner back in the mail was 4 months.  I immediately relisted and resold the item.  My EBay buyer filed a complaint with PayPal instead of EBay.  I took PayPal to small claims court and requested the difference between the 2 purchase prices.

The Judge told them to pay up!

Pay up they did!

I recommend trying this approach if you have a little extra time on your hands.  PM me if you need some pointers.

[beetcoin]

I'm very sorry to hear about your issue. I'm yet to hear about anyone who's happy with their PayPal/eBay experience...

buyers are probably more happy.. they get protected, not the seller. im sure there are many people who are okay with paypal, but there are a lot of people who are unhappy too.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Just wait until one of your "buyers" ships back a brick in a box (delivery confirmation of course).  PayPal will gladly give him a full refund.  If you haven't gone bankrupt doing what you are doing on ebay well your lucky.  If you keep doing it, well it is only a matter of time.

PSA: If you don't know what you are doing DO NOT buy thousands of dollars worth of mining equipment!

What makes you think they don't know EXACTLY what they are doing.  They are getting to use ten thousand dollar rigs for a couple week free while they rapidly depreciate.  You assume the buyer is an idiot, it is far more likely this was all premeditated.  The "dumb buyer" is simply an act to get PayPal to rubber stamp the dispute.   

[mkc]

Buying mining gigs and use it for a while, then return the hardware, keeping the free coins.
This has been bad practice on ebay/paypal system, even some credit card will help these dudes.
Stay away from eBay.

[redwhitenblue]

Just wait until one of your "buyers" ships back a brick in a box (delivery confirmation of course).  PayPal will gladly give him a full refund.  If you haven't gone bankrupt doing what you are doing on ebay well your lucky.  If you keep doing it, well it is only a matter of time.

I am surprised that there is not more of this type of scam going on already.