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Author Topic: Black Arrow Customers - Consumer Complaints Links  (Read 20461 times)
Pentax
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July 08, 2014, 12:50:38 PM
Last edit: July 27, 2014, 11:49:34 PM by Pentax
 #1

I have started this thread because the people at Black Arrow have been deleting information on consumer agencies from their thread.  

I will put information here on consumer agencies that will take consumer complaints as well as general information.  

If anyone has anything to add for the benefit of Black Arrow customers, by all means do so.


-
_______________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________
Edit:
 
I'm adding this because a lot people are asking me what they should do.  I want to make it clear that I'm not an attorney, just a guy trying to get his money back, just like everyone else.

Please take a look at all of this and look into the options to see what you think is best for you.  If I knew the absolute best thing to do, I'd post it.  If I knew what the outcome of this or that option would be, I'd tell you.  I don't and don't claim to.  Wish I did.

I'm putting up the options I've found that I think might help people.  do your homework, and ask questions of the representatives of the consumer groups if you have questions to find out if these things are right for you.  If you find new information that you think might help, by all means post it.  If you're talking to law firms let us know.  

When a legal firm is chosen I'll let people know, direct people to them and let people know what they tell me to tell people.  
_______________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________
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Pentax
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July 08, 2014, 12:51:14 PM
Last edit: July 27, 2014, 11:27:27 PM by Pentax
 #2

A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by the starter of a self-moderated topic. There are no rules of self-moderation, so this deletion cannot be appealed. Do not continue posting in this topic if the topic-starter has requested that you leave.

You can create a new topic if you are unsatisfied with this one. If the topic-starter is scamming, post about it in Scam Accusations.

Quote
Here is a link to the Shenzhen Consumer Council provided by a legal firm in Shenzhen.  Complaints can be filed through this agency.

Pages are in Chinese, so you will have to translate them if this is not your language.

http://www.sz315.org/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=lists&catid=10

_______________________________________________________________________________ _


China Consumer's Association

http://www.cca.org.cn/english/index.jsp


http://www.consumersinternational.org/our-members/member-directory/China%20Consumers%20Association

e-mail:  cca1984@vip.sohu.net

_____________________________________________________________________________
Hong-Kong consumer council

The Consumer Council can be contacted at:

Address: 22nd Floor, K. Wah Centre, 191 Java Road, North Point, Hong Kong
Tel: 852 2856 3113
Fax: 852 2856 3611
Email: cc@consumer.org.hk
Website: http://www.consumer.org.hk


see posts below on how to file with the Hong Kong Consumer Council
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July 08, 2014, 12:51:49 PM
 #3

A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by the starter of a self-moderated topic. There are no rules of self-moderation, so this deletion cannot be appealed. Do not continue posting in this topic if the topic-starter has requested that you leave.

You can create a new topic if you are unsatisfied with this one. If the topic-starter is scamming, post about it in Scam Accusations.

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Quote from: y_boonstra on Today at 11:43:52 AM
Quote from: Pentax on Today at 11:28:28 AM
Here is a link to the Shenzhen Consumer Council provided by a legal firm in Shenzhen.  Complaints can be filed through this agency.

Pages are in Chinese, so you will have to translate them if this is not your language.

http://www.sz315.org/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=lists&catid=10

Wich form do we have to fill in ? im looking around but it aint what you call organised

I think it is this page:

http://www.sz315.org/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=19&id=6169

It looks like we simply fill in the box with information and they take it from there.  Obviously, I'd add details, including the breaches, order number, and what you'd like them to do.

See this page for some more info on what they want:  http://www.sz315.org/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=19&id=6175

I will also look for a general contact e-mail or something and have asked for that also.
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July 08, 2014, 01:06:40 PM
 #4

here's an image of the post that got deleted.

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July 08, 2014, 01:11:01 PM
 #5



Quoted from Ecointalk
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July 08, 2014, 01:55:31 PM
 #6

Thanks for collating all the info. Just 'watching' while awaiting the response to my refund request after being left feeling badly let down by black arrow software.
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July 08, 2014, 02:01:46 PM
 #7

I've requested a refound also (20x prospero x1), if they'll refuse my refound - i will like to join some group that will take legal actions against blackarrow.

Do you know if any1 is forming that kind of group already?

Best Regards,
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July 08, 2014, 02:03:33 PM
 #8

Thanks for collating all the info. Just 'watching' while awaiting the response to my refund request after being left feeling badly let down by black arrow software.

yes, I think we're all in the same boat, unfortunately.

I have not yet filed with this agency, but have been thinking about it.  They will decide whether or not to handle a given complaint.  It is likely that if a bunch come in at once they are more likely to take it on.  

Maybe we give this a day or so and then file as closely together as reasonably possible.

In the meantime, I will further organize some of this, go through that website to pull out what they want in terms of information in a given comlaint and see if I can get a direct channel to someone there.
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July 08, 2014, 02:19:57 PM
 #9

I've requested a refound also (20x prospero x1), if they'll refuse my refound - i will like to join some group that will take legal actions against blackarrow.

Do you know if any1 is forming that kind of group already?

Best Regards,


Discussions with law firms in Shenzhen and US firms with offices in Shenzhen are ongoing to determine the best course of action.

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July 08, 2014, 02:53:15 PM
 #10

Is the company incorporated?  And is it incorporated in China?  I remember hearing that the owner is in England.  Regardless of where the company operates, you need to know where it is incorporated.  That would be the country to sue in.  If they are not incorporated and are a partnership or soul owner business, then you would go after the owner directly.

You can sue them in the United States.  You would win, because they won't show up.  Then you file paperwork to get an embargo done on their (and their owner's) ability to ever do business in the United States again.  This is how Commodore International (Commodore 64 computer) went out of business.  They lost a private lawsuit, the judge put an embargo on their ability to bring hardware into the country, and they went out of business.  (After years of mismanagement prevented them from being able to afford to pay the judgement)


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Pentax
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July 08, 2014, 03:04:48 PM
 #11

Is the company incorporated?  And is it incorporated in China?  I remember hearing that the owner is in England.  Regardless of where the company operates, you need to know where it is incorporated.  That would be the country to sue in.  If they are not incorporated and are a partnership or soul owner business, then you would go after the owner directly.

You can sue them in the United States.  You would win, because they won't show up.  Then you file paperwork to get an embargo done on their (and their owner's) ability to ever do business in the United States again.  This is how Commodore International (Commodore 64 computer) went out of business.  They lost a private lawsuit, the judge put an embargo on their ability to bring hardware into the country, and they went out of business.  (After years of mismanagement prevented them from being able to afford to pay the judgement)



yep, these are all relevant questions.  I don't know that Black Arrow will willingly hand over this information, although some of it seems to be part of Chinese law, but it would probably be a good idea at this initial stage to request that information as part of any filings.

The lawyers will figure it out fairly quickly as part of initial case review.  I will ask them about these things also.

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July 08, 2014, 03:15:54 PM
 #12

thx mate!
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July 08, 2014, 04:34:02 PM
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Is the company incorporated?  And is it incorporated in China?  I remember hearing that the owner is in England.  Regardless of where the company operates, you need to know where it is incorporated.  That would be the country to sue in.  If they are not incorporated and are a partnership or soul owner business, then you would go after the owner directly.

You can sue them in the United States.  You would win, because they won't show up.  Then you file paperwork to get an embargo done on their (and their owner's) ability to ever do business in the United States again.  This is how Commodore International (Commodore 64 computer) went out of business.  They lost a private lawsuit, the judge put an embargo on their ability to bring hardware into the country, and they went out of business.  (After years of mismanagement prevented them from being able to afford to pay the judgement)




See here for the Annual Report:  http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf
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July 08, 2014, 04:45:57 PM
 #14

For some reason I've got it in mind that the T's and C's changed at various points along the timeline, but I haven't dug out the copy I thought I had from the point I ordered. Any chance anyone else has copies as they were at various times (or to correct me if they've stayed the same)? We really need to establish a proper timeline of statements, including the misleading ones (such as the legendary 'we're on/ahead of schedule' said in January, quickly followed by the massive delay).
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July 08, 2014, 06:17:06 PM
 #15

Looks like he is incorporated in the Virgin Islands.  That's likely a tax haven outside the EU.  I believe a lawyer could go after him personally.  The stock is held 100% by his haven business that I'm sure he's 100% owner of.  It's the same baloney Ken Slaughter tried with incorporating VMC/AMC in Belize.  The Government doesn't care, they went right after Ken personally because of where he operates out of.   In this case, the court would go right to the owner because he owns all the stock and likely operates out of the UK.  He's not shielded, in fact because he doesn't appear to have any other officers, he's completely holding the bag for everyone else in the company.

An SEC investigation would force him to produce refunds to customers.  But being that he's in the EU, the jurisdiction would reside with them to make that move.  And they might be more apt to do it, because there is less of this stuff going on there. 

Armchair lawyering though.  You should talk to a real lawyer about it (As you are doing) to get a list of options.  Doesn't sound like you need to go through China though.  I bet it's going to be an EU case or even in the United States.

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July 09, 2014, 11:26:26 AM
 #16

The former links for Hong Kong consumer complaints may or may not be the suitable office to handle complaints, which explains why BA did not delete the post linking to the Hong Kong office either in the BA thread or on their forum, when it was posted by someone else there.

They are quite happy apparently to let people run in circles.  Unfortunately for them that only goes so far if people follow up instead of simply thinking it is impossible or that China does not have these sorts of agencies.  None of that is the case, I assure you.  That Hong Kong office has been responsive, as have been other agencies, and most of attorneys I and others have spoken to, to clarify this.

They wrote: "Under the "one country, two systems" arrangement, Hong Kong Special Administrative Region has a separate government and a different political system. Therefore, we are not in a position to handle complaints against a trader in Mainland China...if your complaint is against a Hong Kong registered company, please provide the payment record, bank confirmation and other supporting documents..."

We know from the annual report that they are indeed registered in Hong Kong, so I will be sending that report located here:

http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf

along with the documents they have requested, back to the Hong Kong office

https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en

, as well as filing a report in Shenzhen and with another agency I have been given the information for.

The contact details of the other agency they recommended, China Consumers’ Association are as follow:
 
Phone number: (86) 1063281315 / (86) 1063253100
Office address in English: China Consumers’Association, Level 3, Ganjiakou No.12, North First Street, Fu Cheng Road, Haiding District, Beijing, China
Office address in Chinese: 北京市海淀区阜成路北一街甘家口12号楼3层中国消費者协会
Postal number: 100037

I will try to get a website or something for the China Consumer's Association and post it here if I can find it.  If anyone else comes across it, by all means post it.
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July 09, 2014, 01:04:57 PM
 #17

At this point BA has deleted many of my posts on their self moderated thread.  I haven't looked through all of them yet, but will repost some of them here when I have the opportunity to do so.

Anyone that would like to point people to this thread for information is of course welcome to do so, as they are seemingly attempting to censor information.  IMO people should know what their options really are in this circumstance so they can decide what is best for them. 

it also seems obvious that this latest information on agencies in Shenzhen and China has bothered them in some way.  They left the other information up, and jumped on these posts immediately.

I think that tells people something about whether or not or not these agencies may be effective in helping people to deal with BA. 

I am prepping my complaints and continuing to look for further information on consumer rights as they pertain to this situation and will post here as I am able.

Everyone else's decision is of course their own.  I am posting information for the sole purpose of letting people know what their options are, to the best of my knowledge.
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July 09, 2014, 01:51:49 PM
 #18

Hi, Pentax, I would like to be your friend.
I want to join to the group taking legal action against BA, to get back our money from those incompetent scammers.
I live in The Netherlands, Rotterdam. (EU)
I have ordered directly from BA site 2 machines X3 on Batch 1, with option 50% prepaid in $, and next 50% to pay by delivery.
After last week update I do not trust in their scam anymore, few days ago I sent a refund request stating inefficiency caused by their delays and my inability to go in further debts on credit card. And only the status was changed from critical to normal. With no answer, confirmation or Email from them. So I do not know where I am staying now.
I am willing for full cooperation and to help with what I can.
So, what is your opinion?
Do we have any chance?
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July 09, 2014, 07:22:36 PM
 #19

This post will be a collection of the posts they deleted from their self moderated thread that I think may be relevant for people.  It may be a bit of a jumble, but I'll keep as clear as possible.  Actually they've probably done us all a favor as all of this will be easier to find for people instead of lost in that other thread.   

_______________________________________________________________________________ ________________

http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20140315/103830.shtml

China’s amended law on consumer rights takes effect on Saturday, World Consumer Rights Day. The new version strengthens regulations on the e-commerce industry.

It allows consumers the right to return goods they bought via the Internet, television, telephone or mail orders within seven days from the date of receipt. It also specifies that delivery fees for returning the product shall be borne by the consumer, who should be paid back within a week after the seller receives the returned goods.
This is known as the "seven-day unconditional return."

_______________________________________________________________________________ ________________

Link to former Chinese consumer law.  The most updated version took effect earlier this year (2014).  I will post that also.

http://www.china.org.cn/china/LegislationsForm2001-2010/2011-02/14/content_21917139.htm

_______________________________________________________________________________ __________________



Article 39 Consumers whose legitimate rights and interests are infringed upon on account of commodities or services supplied by business operators by means of false advertisement may demand compensations from the business operators. Consumers may demand the competent administrative departments to punish the advertising agents who make false advertisements. Advertising agents who cannot provide the real names and addresses of the business operators shall be liable for compensation.

_______________________________________________________________________________ ____________________


Advance Payments

Advance payments, installment payments, and other transactions involving merchants’
management of consumer funds will require the establishment of earmarked, trusteeship
accounts at commercial banks.

_______________________________________________________________________________ ___________________


Article 24 Business operators may not, through format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on, impose unfair or unreasonable rules on consumers or reduce or escape their civil liability for their infringement of the legitimate rights and interests of consumers.

Format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on with contents mentioned in the preceding paragraph shall be invalid.

_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________

Chapter III Obligations of Business Operators

Article 16 Business operators shall, in their supply of commodities and services to consumers, fulfill their obligations stipulated in the Law of the People's Republic of China on Product Quality and other laws and regulations concerned.

In case an agreement is reached between business operators and consumers, the business operators shall fulfill the obligations agreed upon in the agreement; but the agreement between the two parties shall not contravene the provisions of laws and regulations.

Article 17 Business operators shall listen to the consumers' opinions on the commodities and services they supply and accept consumers' supervision.

Article 18 Business operators shall guarantee that the commodities and services they supply meet the requirements for personal or property safety. As to commodities and services liable to harm personal or property safety, business operators shall give the consumers truthful explanation and clear-cut warnings, and shall explain or indicate the correct ways of using the commodities or receiving services as well as the methods of preventing damage.

Business operators shall, upon discovery of serious defects of the commodities or services they supply which are liable to harm personal or property safety even though the commodities are correctly applied or services are received in a correct way, immediately report to the administrative departments concerned and inform the consumers, and adopt measures to prevent damage.

Article 19 Business operators shall provide consumers with authentic information concerning their commodities or services, and may not make any false and misleading propaganda.

Business operators shall give truthful and definite replies to inquiries from consumers about the qualities of the commodities or services they supply and the operation methods thereof.

Shops shall mark clearly the prices of the commodities they supply.

Article 20 Business operators shall indicate their real names and marks.

Business operators who lease counters or grounds from others shall indicate their own real names and marks.

Article 21 Business operators who supply commodities or services shall make out for consumers invoices for purchases or documents of services in accordance with relevant regulations of the State or commercial practices; business operators must produce such invoices or documents where consumers so demand.

Article 22 Business operators shall guarantee the quality, functions, usage and term of validity which the commodities or services they supply should possess under normal operation or acceptance, except that consumers are aware of the defects before they buy the commodities or receive the services.

Business operators who employ advertisements, product instructions, samples or other ways to display the quality state of their commodities or services shall guarantee that the actual quality of the commodities or services they supply is in conformity with that demonstrated.

Article 23 Business operators who are under the obligation of repair or caveat venditor, or other responsibilities in accordance with regulations of the State or agreements with consumers shall carry out such obligations correspondingly according to such regulations or agreements, and may not deliberately delay or unreasonably refuse to do so.

Article 24 Business operators may not, through format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on, impose unfair or unreasonable rules on consumers or reduce or escape their civil liability for their infringement of the legitimate rights and interests of consumers.

Format contracts, notices, announcements, entrance hall bulletins and so on with contents mentioned in the preceding paragraph shall be invalid.

Article 25 Business operators may not insult or slander consumers, may not search the body of consumers or the articles they carry with them, and may not violate the personal freedom of consumers.

_______________________________________________________________________________ _____________________


Law of the People's Republic of China on the Protection of Consumer Rights and InterestsChapter VII Legal Responsibility

Article 40 Business operators shall, if the commodities and services they supply involve any of the following circumstances, bear civil liability in accordance with the provisions of the Law of the People's Republic of China on Product Quality and other relevant laws and regulations, except as otherwise provided in the present Law:

(1) there existing defects in the commodities;

(2) not possessing the properties for use they should possess and no declaration thereabout is made at the time of sale;

(3) not conforming to the standards indicated on the commodities or on the packaging thereof;

(4) not conforming to the state of quality indicated by the product description or by physical samples;

(5) producing commodities that have been formally declared by the State to be eliminated or selling commodities that are no longer effective or deteriorated;

(6) commodities sold being short of weight or quantity;

(7) contents and costs of services being not in conformity with the agreements;

8 - deliberately delaying or unreasonably refusing consumers' requests for repair, remanufacture, replacement, return of goods, makeup for the short commodities, return of payment for goods or services, or compensation for losses;

_______________________________________________________________________________ _________________
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July 09, 2014, 07:56:24 PM
 #20

China Consumer's Association

http://www.cca.org.cn/english/index.jsp


http://www.consumersinternational.org/our-members/member-directory/China%20Consumers%20Association

e-mail:  cca1984@vip.sohu.net
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