Black Arrow Customers - Consumer Complaints Links

[Craige288]

Information on how to go after the actual culprit of this entire mess, Alexandru himself !  This scam easily qualifies above $75K.

http://fraudaid.com/How-To-Deal-With-Having-Been-Conned/Fraud_Report/Jurisdictions/International/ScotlandYard.htm

[btmtb]

Information on how to go after the actual culprit of this entire mess, Alexandru himself !  This scam easily qualifies above $75K.

http://fraudaid.com/How-To-Deal-With-Having-Been-Conned/Fraud_Report/Jurisdictions/International/ScotlandYard.htm

Does he own Black Arrow Software via BByte or personally? https://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/director/52767/alexandru-sovu

[Pentax]

Information on how to go after the actual culprit of this entire mess, Alexandru himself !  This scam easily qualifies above $75K.

http://fraudaid.com/How-To-Deal-With-Having-Been-Conned/Fraud_Report/Jurisdictions/International/ScotlandYard.htm

Are you talking about Alexandru Sovu of BByte Ltd? Does he own Black Arrow Software via BByte or personally? https://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/director/52767/alexandru-sovu

See here for the Annual Report:  http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf

[SunBin]

People who pre-order black arrow should probably write it off as a scam.

[Pentax]

Just pasting this in here, as I imagine BA will delete it from the self moderated thread.




The company is registered in Hong Kong, so the proper agency from what I have been able to find out so far is the Hong Kong Consumer Council.

They request some documents and need to establish that this is a Hong Kong registered company  before they will agree to pick it up, therefore:

Send the annual report http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf

along with the documents they have requested.  Those documents are:

1.  The invoice showing you paid
2   your bank or payment records showing the payment
3.  any e-mail or support discussions  you've had
4.  The annual report referenced above.

Here's the link to file a complaint if you decide you want to do that.

https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en

Also indicate that their TOS indicates Hong Kong law and paste that in to your message.

http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/terms-and-conditions-en.html#purchase

15.2 Applicable law and dispute resolution
16.2 1 This Agreement shall be interpreted and applied in accordance with the law of Hong Kong S.A.R. of PRC.

This is all the information they will need to pick this up.  They have been very helpful and responsive.  If that goes nowhere, Shenzhen Consumer Group, with which I have also been talking and then the lawyers will be next.

[thejaxx]

If you ordered through MS in the United States, you will want to do the following as well:

You will want to file a complaint with the Attorney General of Colorado, the Attorney General of Missouri (the state they're based in) and your state.

While the AG isn't able to do much, they do send a letter to them and ask for their response as to why they are doing what they do. But if they get enough complaints, the AG then can step in and sue the company for customer protection violations.

According to the Federal Trade Commission, and I even spoke to them, if you requested a refund before shipment, they were required to refund you. What they tried to do in my case was bump me to the front of the shipping queue to send me my miners even though I expressly informed them I did not want them anymore.

So here are the links:

BBB: http://www.bbb.org/denver/

Colorado AG: https://www.coloradoattorneygeneral.gov/consumerfraudcomplaint

Missouri AG: https://www.consumer.ago.mo.gov/

FTC: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=203&Url=%23%26panel1-6#crnt

Also file with your state BBB and Attorney General. And for kicks, you can file with the Missouri BBB and AG since they are incorporated there. https://www.consumer.ago.mo.gov/index.cgi

Here is info on their filings:

http://www.sos.state.co.us/biz/ViewImage.do?fileId=20131720684&masterFileId=20131720684

https://bsd.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/BusinessEntityDetail.aspx?page=beSearch&ID=3524073

Then lastly: http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/435.2

They have violated most everything in there. They should of informed us within 30 days of any delays, each time, and asked if we wanted a refund or would like to continue with the pre-order. They never once did.

Use the address from MS's contact page and put in the notes everything you've done. They will also allow you to attach documents, so saving the emails into one file and such is a good idea.

And if you have done the above, please post or drop me a pm.

[Pentax]

I'm adding this because a lot people are asking me what they should do.  I want to make it clear that I'm not an attorney, just a guy trying to get his money back, just like everyone else.

Please take a look at all of this and look into the options to see what you think is best for you.  If I knew the absolute best thing to do, I'd post it.  If I knew what the outcome of this or that option would be, I'd tell you.  I don't and don't claim to.  Wish I did.

I'm putting up the options I've found that I think might help people.  do your homework, and ask questions of the representatives of the consumer groups if you have questions to find out if these things are right for you.  If you find new information that you think might help, by all means post it.  If you're talking to law firms let us know. 

When a legal firm is chosen I'll let people know, direct people to them and let people know what they tell me to tell people.

[Pentax]

Consumer Legal Action Fund

allows for groups of consumers to take action together in Hong Kong.  Give it a read.

http://www.consumer.org.hk/website/ws_en/legal_protection/consumer_legal_actions_fund/CLAFBriefPDF.pdf

[Pentax]

taken from another thread.

http://hongkong.usconsulate.gov/acs_consumer.html

Quote
Consumer/Business Disputes in Hong Kong

Consumer Council

If the trader fails to address your concerns after you have inquired directly, you may lodge a complaint with the Consumer Council. Some examples of problems the Council may be able to resolve include goods or services not corresponding to their description, delays in delivery or other dissatisfaction with service. You may lodge your complaint in a number of ways:

Online
- Complaint (Consumer Complaint Form - To facilitate the upload of attachment(s), you are advised to use Microsoft Internet Explorer.)

- Enquiry (Consumer Enquiry Form)
In writing
write down all the details of the incident and the points of dissatisfaction.
Specify the claim and, with a copy of related receipts or documents, send to the Council:

Consumer Council
North Point Consumer Advice Centre
Room 1410 14/F Kodak House II
39 Healthy Street East
North Point Hong Kong
By Phone
(852) 2929 2222 (Services hours: Monday to Friday 09:00 am - 05:30 pm)
By Fax
(852) 2856 3611
In Person
Visit any of the Consumer Advice Centres with a copy of related receipts or documents and lodge your case.
Office hours:
Monday to Friday
09:00 AM to 01:00 PM
02:00 PM to 06:00 PM
Small Claim Tribunal

The Small Claims Tribunal deals quickly, informally and inexpensively with claims not exceeding HK$50,000. Although the Tribunal is a court, the rules of evidence are less strictly adhered to than in most other courts, and no person can normally be represented by a lawyer.

Other Sources of Assistance

Hong Kong Tourism Board
11/F Citicorp Center
18 Whitfield Road
North Point, Hong Kong
Tel: 2807-6543
Fax: 2806-0303
Email: info@hktb.com

Hong Kong Government
Trade Mediation & Reserved Commodities Unit
Unit 1218-1222, 12/F, Nan Fung Commercial Centre
19 Lam Lok Street
Kowloon Bay, Kowloon, Hong Kong
Tel: 2707-7832
Fax: 2789-8258

Legal Services Providers in Hong Kong and Macau

 

Last modified: July 23, 2010

[ghcannon]

Thank you for opening this thread and perhaps unintentionally leading 'la resitance' against those scammers.
I'll be joining you real soon.

[DavidHume]

If they are not in first world country, you should just write it off as a loss.

[BitCoin Operated Boy]

If they are not in first world country, you should just write it off as a loss.

Hong Kong is not a developing country as such. Alhough it is currently under Chinese control it has completely different and highly developed free market economy.

[DonRavy]

Anyone looking to join a class action lawsuit against Black Arrow, I'd suggest you prepare a folder of your dealings with them. Starting from order details, E-Mail conversations, private messages here or on their forum, all eventual tickets and so on. Personally I've both screenshotted them and printed them to PDF to compile a nice dossier.

From my preliminary research on the legal side of this entire disaster, mostly thanks to the information and details provided by Pentax here, people might well be entitled to more than just their investment. Depending on jurisdiction, there is a possibility that BA would have to not only refund everyone, but also compensate for loss of profit, as well as loss of interest on this profit. This is especially true if law of the PRC comes into play, as Pentax already laid out, see Article 40 of the Law of the People's Republic of China on the Protection of Consumer Rights and Interests Chapter VII Legal Responsibility:

Business operators shall, if the commodities and services they supply
involve any of the following circumstances, bear civil liability in
accordance with the provisions of the Law of the People's Republic
of China on Product Quality and other relevant laws and regulations,
except as otherwise provided in the present Law:
[...]
8. deliberately delaying or unreasonably refusing consumers'
requests for repair, remanufacture, replacement, return of goods,
makeup for the short commodities, return of payment for goods or
services, or compensation for losses;

(emphasis is mine)

So in case of a conviction, BlackArrow would be liable to repay a ton more than was invested. I guess you could say at least that's a way to still get some ROI </sarcasm>.

I'm currently working on getting the process started on my end, I'm also confering with Pentax on joining up in a class action suit to increase our chances of geting a conviction. I will post updates here from time to time, in case other "customers" of BlackArrow are interested to join us in this.

[DonRavy]

BA moved their secretary service provider once, from "Companies Registrations & Secretary Ltd." in 2012 to "Galaxy Company Secretarial Services Ltd." in 2013. Obviously the street address changed with that, according to my info about UK (and as such HK) company registration services, you need a director and a secretary, where the secretary is used as primary contact for governmental and/or regulatory bodies.

[Emzor]

Hi guys,

Did any1 achieved anything by informing agencies about blackarrow's scam ?

Best regards,

[BitCoin Operated Boy]

Hi guys,

Did any1 achieved anything by informing agencies about blackarrow's scam ?

Best regards,

Hi,

I haven't got any answer yet as it will take some time before Black Arrow receives my complaint/claim and responds to it

[thejaxx]

I received a call today from a lawyer for MS. They're trying to get me to drop everything and said he is calling ALL people that refused their orders from MS.

[DonRavy]

Starting tomorrow I'll be out of the country for a week, though I do have another meeting with my lawyer scheduled for late next week. I'll keep you guys posted here when new things develop on my end.

@Jaxx: scare tactic, don't let em intimidate you. If you requested a refund before your ordered product was shipped, you have every right to that refund. MS trying these scare tactics with everyone who refused shipment is a whole other thing to interprete though, might mean they're on edge, especially in a financial sense. Sadly I can't say much more from here, just don't let em intimidate you, update the authorities, respectively consumer groups of the issue and go from there, just don't let them bully you into accepting your shipment if you don't want it and have already requested a refund.

[BitCoin Operated Boy]

Black Arrow removed my message about Hong Kong's Consumer Council sending me an e-mail and letter with confirmation of opening up the case against Black Arrow.

Now Black Arrow has just tried to blackmail me in private message. Here is the conversation. I've got print screens which I will upload online later.

Black Arrow:
 Sent to: BitCoin Operated Boy on: Today at 04:01:25 PM

Dear Customer,

What is your order number?

Regards!
Black Arrow
   
Me:

I will not provide you with my order details as you threatened forum members with consequences.

If you want t know my order number then you shall see it on the letter from Consumer Council regarding my complaint.

Black Arrow:

How can we ship your order first if you do not let us know what order you want to be shipped?
What kind of consequences can we threaten with?

Me:

I requested a refund two and a half months ago. I do not want the miner to be shipped now. It was supposed to be shipped in February. I'd like to receive my refund. The order number is stated in the letter and you can refer it to my refund request tickets submitted on https://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/support/index.php?

How can we refund if we do not know what order to refund?

Me:

Are you willing to refund it if I give you my order details. And if so when will you process the refund?

Black Arrow:

I need to look into your your order to answer to this question.

Me:

Sorry but that obviously means that you are not willing to process the refund. Sorry but I'm not stupid.
Once you confirm you will refund my order and when then I will give you the order number. I only ordered one X3 worth $6,028.15.
If you don't confirm then please refer yourself to the order on the letter from the council.

Regards,

Black Arrow:

If you do not wish to receive a refund that is up to you. We will ship your order then.

Me:

I've got a print screen of this conversation. I'm going to keep sharing it on the forum as long as it is required.
You have gone to far again. I won't tolerate your childish threats of refusing to refund my order. If you try to ignore my refund request by sending the miner you will ger your miner back and I will do the best I can for you to take consequences of this.
I will use the content of this conversation to support my claims against your comapany.

[Pentax]

Black Arrow removed my message about Hong Kong's Consumer Council sending me an e-mail and letter with confirmation of opening up the case against Black Arrow.

Now Black Arrow has just tried to blackmail me in private message. Here is the conversation. I've got print screens which I will upload online later.

Black Arrow:
 Sent to: BitCoin Operated Boy on: Today at 04:01:25 PM

Dear Customer,

What is your order number?

Regards!
Black Arrow
   
Me:

I will not provide you with my order details as you threatened forum members with consequences.

If you want t know my order number then you shall see it on the letter from Consumer Council regarding my complaint.

Black Arrow:

How can we ship your order first if you do not let us know what order you want to be shipped?
What kind of consequences can we threaten with?

Me:

I requested a refund two and a half months ago. I do not want the miner to be shipped now. It was supposed to be shipped in February. I'd like to receive my refund. The order number is stated in the letter and you can refer it to my refund request tickets submitted on https://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/support/index.php?

How can we refund if we do not know what order to refund?

Me:

Are you willing to refund it if I give you my order details. And if so when will you process the refund?

Black Arrow:

I need to look into your your order to answer to this question.

Me:

Sorry but that obviously means that you are not willing to process the refund. Sorry but I'm not stupid.
Once you confirm you will refund my order and when then I will give you the order number. I only ordered one X3 worth $6,028.15.
If you don't confirm then please refer yourself to the order on the letter from the council.

Regards,

Black Arrow:

If you do not wish to receive a refund that is up to you. We will ship your order then.

Me:

I've got a print screen of this conversation. I'm going to keep sharing it on the forum as long as it is required.
You have gone to far again. I won't tolerate your childish threats of refusing to refund my order. If you try to ignore my refund request by sending the miner you will ger your miner back and I will do the best I can for you to take consequences of this.
I will use the content of this conversation to support my claims against your comapany.

send that on to the Consumer Council