Black Arrow Customers - Consumer Complaints Links

[Seven111]

You should probably try and get Phinnaeus Gage involved in this as well.

He'd probably enjoy coming up with all the dirt and the time line that he had uncovered.

On another note, while MinerSource seem to be on the up and up, I find it somewhat curious that a reseller has that much sway. I seem to remember that it was because of bobsag3's trip to China the first time that a whole bunch of people calmed down because he said that things were ok. I also seem to recall him saying that he had seen the 'secret' compensation plan but couldn't say anything until they announced it publicly. Somehow, the supposed information that he was going to get us and him ensuring that things are going to planned hasn't panned out as anticipated.

Yet he jumps on XBteC saying that he's going to get lawyers involved against them for 'stealing' the list even though it was claimed that BlackArrow sold it to them. And now his lawyers are threatening people who are within their rights asking for refunds?

[greenlion]

Matt Carson / Minersource is not remotely a good actor in all of this, he previously went by the handle borito4 and is a known scammer on this board. Unfortunately if I had known that's who he was, that would've even prevented me from ordering directly from BA. We don't yet know the extent to which he's in on this, but the china trips suggest it's really deep, so if you are in a position to go after Minersource via the US FTC, go hard no matter what bullshit his "lawyer" says to intimidate you.

[Jcga]

Hello Pentax,

What is the BA's Office address, where to write please.
there is one on their invoice and one different on their website.

TIA

[klintay]

They have a registered hk company (Company Registration. 1520309).
If you do a hk company search (it is free) you will find more info:

https://www.icris.cr.gov.hk

I believe their address is:

90 jaffe road
wanchai
hong kong

It is actually really easy to sue people in HK. You don't have to be a HK citizen but you do need to hire someone to represent you in Small Claims Courts (it can't be a lawyer so it is actually cheap to do).

Small Claims Court
If what you are claiming against a business is less than $50,000 HKD then you are eligible to sue them in Small Claims Court.

Why is small claims court good?
-lawyers are not allowed in small claims court
-The person you are suing cannot counter sue you in small claims court.
-You do not have to be a Hong Kong Resident to file a motion with the small claims court
-If black arrow fail to show then you will win the claim by default
-only transport costs can be claimed in small claims court.
-no they can't hire someone from Jamaica and claim the flight as a cost (a Philippine company tried this with my fd and it got thrown out of small claims court)
-Once you win, you are given a legal document (Writ of Fieri Facias) saying BA owe you this much in HKD$
-Then you can hire a HK government bailiff to come and collect anything from BA office that is in the value of the amount they owe you

Imagine turning up to Black Arrow office in Wan Chai and walking off with a bunch of their PCs and some bitcoin wallets while being protected by the bailiffs and the HK police.

How to file a claim for your money back in HK Small Claims Court:
http://www.judiciary.gov.hk/en/crt_services/pphlt/html/sc.htm

Online Forms:
http://www.judiciary.gov.hk/en/crt_services/forms/sc.htm


Or maybe just make a formal complaint to this organisation:

HK Consumer Complaints Council
They recommend you file a complaint against the a local company if as a consumer you come across unfair trade practices, e.g .

-goods or services not correspond to description;
-delay in delivery;
-dissatisfaction to service,

http://www.consumer.org.hk/website/ws_en/complaints_and_advices/how_to_complain/howtocomplain.html

[Jcga]

Thx you klintay, a serious person.

[Emzor]

Hi guys. Would any of you would like to try to group suit these guys ? I've ordered very early - in november with WIRE transfer, payment 100% in advance. I've got all conversations with blackarrow saved and it would be nice to recover my cash somehow - 6000$.

PM me, if any1 would like to join me. We could try to use way posted above, but it could be cheaper for us to do it in a group.

Best regards,

[Waramp22]

Hi guys. Would any of you would like to try to group suit these guys ? I've ordered very early - in november with WIRE transfer, payment 100% in advance. I've got all conversations with blackarrow saved and it would be nice to recover my cash somehow - 6000$.

PM me, if any1 would like to join me. We could try to use way posted above, but it could be cheaper for us to do it in a group.

Best regards,

I'm in. I am not willing to fly all the way to hongkong but if we can arrange a class action lawsuit of sorts, represented by a forum member living over there I'd gladly give the person 1/2 of whatever money he can get me back from Black Arrow.

[Waramp22]

Just pasting this in here, as I imagine BA will delete it from the self moderated thread.




The company is registered in Hong Kong, so the proper agency from what I have been able to find out so far is the Hong Kong Consumer Council.

They request some documents and need to establish that this is a Hong Kong registered company  before they will agree to pick it up, therefore:

Send the annual report http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf

along with the documents they have requested.  Those documents are:

1.  The invoice showing you paid
2   your bank or payment records showing the payment
3.  any e-mail or support discussions  you've had
4.  The annual report referenced above.

Here's the link to file a complaint if you decide you want to do that.

https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en

Also indicate that their TOS indicates Hong Kong law and paste that in to your message.

http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/terms-and-conditions-en.html#purchase

15.2 Applicable law and dispute resolution
16.2 1 This Agreement shall be interpreted and applied in accordance with the law of Hong Kong S.A.R. of PRC.

This is all the information they will need to pick this up.  They have been very helpful and responsive.  If that goes nowhere, Shenzhen Consumer Group, with which I have also been talking and then the lawyers will be next.

Thank you, i submitted a complaint.

[Pentax]

Just pasting this in here, as I imagine BA will delete it from the self moderated thread.




The company is registered in Hong Kong, so the proper agency from what I have been able to find out so far is the Hong Kong Consumer Council.

They request some documents and need to establish that this is a Hong Kong registered company  before they will agree to pick it up, therefore:

Send the annual report http://www.kiwi.nz/blackarrow/PS300015776549_01.pdf

along with the documents they have requested.  Those documents are:

1.  The invoice showing you paid
2   your bank or payment records showing the payment
3.  any e-mail or support discussions  you've had
4.  The annual report referenced above.

Here's the link to file a complaint if you decide you want to do that.

https://www.consumer.org.hk/cc-complaint/index.php?lang=en

Also indicate that their TOS indicates Hong Kong law and paste that in to your message.

http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/terms-and-conditions-en.html#purchase

15.2 Applicable law and dispute resolution
16.2 1 This Agreement shall be interpreted and applied in accordance with the law of Hong Kong S.A.R. of PRC.

This is all the information they will need to pick this up.  They have been very helpful and responsive.  If that goes nowhere, Shenzhen Consumer Group, with which I have also been talking and then the lawyers will be next.

Thank you, i submitted a complaint.

Cool.  hopefully these will begin to stack up and they'll realize that this is a major problem.

[Pentax]

for those looking for the refunds thread, now deleted from the BA forum:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140701220241/http://ecointalk.net/topic/558-refunds/

[Pentax]

taken from another thread.


"Hi I'm new to the whole thread, but liked to share my experience so far:

I have requested a refund way back earlier this year, and I have them on-file confirming that I've been added to the refund queue.

After numerous requests, no update has been given, and all the 'oh we're so sorry, bare with us' BS replies posted by other ppl, I have received as well.

So I was waiting, and lurking to see what's going on, until just now the DHL guy rang the doorbell with the X3 (HuhHuh?) I refused the shipment altogether, but what the F is going on? Anybody had a similar experience? I also contact the HK Ecomonic & Trade office about this issue, and they have very willingly provided me the link to the HK police, and a list of local HK lawyers.

I would suggest anybody having done 'business' with BA, file for fraud here:

http://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/02_er_room/cif.html

...

Included original email message:

Thank you for your email and we're sorry to learn of your experience.  We suggest that you report the case to the Hong Kong Police if you suspect that fraud is involved.  Please see the following link to the Hong Kong Police:
       
www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/02_er_room/cif.html

In case legal assistance is required,  I attach a link to the Law Society of Hong Kong (the professional association of lawyers in Hong Kong) as follows.  The webpage provides information on how to find legal advice in Hong Kong:

www.hklawsoc.org.hk/pub_e/lawfirmdirectory/

Kind regards,"

[Pentax]

FYI for people. Most of us have probably assumed all along that a company must follow the consumer law of the country in which it does business.  This post discussing Australian consumer law would seemingly support that theory. 


http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/steamowner-valve-taken-to-court-by-accc-over-alleged-violations/story-fnkgdftz-1227041421564


"ACCC chairman Rod Sims said: “The Australian Consumer Law applies to any business providing goods or services within Australia. Valve may be an American-based company with no physical presence in Australia, but it is carrying on business in Australia by selling to Australian consumers, who are protected by Australian Consumer Law.
“It is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law for businesses to state that they do not give refunds under any circumstances, including for gifts and during sales. Under the Australian Consumer Law, consumers can insist on a refund or replacement at their option if a product has a major fault.
“The consumer guarantees provided under the Australian Consumer Law cannot be excluded, restricted or modified.

[Pentax]

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=203&Url=%23%26panel1-6#crnt



for those wanting to file ftc complaints on Black Arrow or Miner Source.

[Pentax]

from BA's self moderated thread:

I think they knew about the caps.  It's just too obvious because they specifically mentioned caps in their statement to cop out from the price matching promise.

I think it's time to turn the table.  No more sitting and waiting, listening to their lies after lies!  We need to start joining and taking action to combat this situation and get the return we deserve.  We've been lied to... We have proof...

I have a mate who's an Australian Federal Police Officer and he needs to know how many others there are that have been ripped off.  He has the ability to perform international inquiries regarding Alexandru Sovu and can influence the authorities in China. http://www.afp.gov.au/media-centre/publications/platypus/previous-editions/2000/march-2000/china.aspx

I for one am liking the fact that we can influence the Ministry of Public Security and bring BA to their attention.

If you would like to be noted in the investigation and hopefully either obtain your money back or at the very least see Alexandru Sovu come to justice then please click here :- http://members.iinet.net.au/~craige/BA_Customers/BA.html.  

That is all I need for now to create the list he needs.  Sorry for the rough web page but I wanted it up quickly.  I will create a database from the submissions and forward to the AFP.

I will obviously report any news at hand, directly to this thread.

Please spread the word so we get maximum exposure and build an understanding of exactly how much money has been fraudulently obtained by BA!

I wonder if XBtec would sell us the email list of BA customers?  If you are in contact with them or have influence then it would be nice to know and hopefully obtain the list.

[Craige288]

I think they knew about the caps.  It's just too obvious because they specifically mentioned caps in their statement to cop out from the price matching promise.

I think it's time to turn the table.  No more sitting and waiting, listening to their lies after lies!  We need to start joining and taking action to combat this situation and get the return we deserve.  We've been lied to... We have proof...

I have a mate who's an Australian Federal Police Officer and he needs to know how many others there are that have been ripped off.  He has the ability to perform international inquiries regarding Alexandru Sovu and can influence the authorities in China. http://www.afp.gov.au/media-centre/publications/platypus/previous-editions/2000/march-2000/china.aspx

I for one am liking the fact that we can influence the Ministry of Public Security and bring BA to their attention.

If you would like to be noted in the investigation and hopefully either obtain your money back or at the very least see Alexandru Sovu come to justice then please click here :- http://members.iinet.net.au/~craige/BA_Customers/BA.html.  

That is all I need for now to create the list he needs.  Sorry for the rough web page but I wanted it up quickly.  I will create a database from the submissions and forward to the AFP.

I will obviously report any news at hand, directly to this thread.

Please spread the word so we get maximum exposure and build an understanding of exactly how much money has been fraudulently obtained by BA!

I wonder if XBtec would sell us the email list of BA customers?  If you are in contact with them or have influence then it would be nice to know and hopefully obtain the list.

EDIT : This also applies to customers that have already received their equipment.  It is late, not to original specs and now we find... dangerous.  You have been sent nothing compared to the amount you paid.  Please join the wagon, you have nothing to lose!

[Craige288]

Submissions rolling in already!  Keep it going people... BA/Alexandru CAN NOT get away with this!!!

[Pentax]

For those in Europe:

European consumers network

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/ecc/index_en.htm


Europe also has a RAPEX system with is integrated with China that is set up to notify people of dangerous products.

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/archive/safety/rapex/rapex_china_en.htm

Someone in the EU will have to pick up the ball on this. get in touch with the consumers network and determine how to file a RAPEX alert.

[Pentax]

For those in the US to report unsafe products.  You can report anonymously if you prefer.

https://www.saferproducts.gov/CPSRMSPublic/Incidents/ReportIncident.aspx

[juni0r]

Australian buyers can also report to ACCC @ http://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/complaints-problems/make-a-consumer-complaint
According to ACCC, Australian consumer law protects Australian even sellers / vendors are not located in Australia as long as the sale agreement / contract takes place within Australia.

[klintay]

Black Arrow miners are blowing up:

http://imgur.com/8Oq1KWJ

Not only do they deliver late, lie, break promises and have the worst customer service. Now they are shipping products that are unsafe as well.