Those who rent out signature space---Unite!

[franckuestein]

+1 I agree with you.

In my case I've tried Primedice for the experience and comments of all the users (More than 400 pages) and we have to be unite to protect other users that are scammed... by the companies that pay for signature space!

[SirChiko]

There are too many members here, some will jump to any campaign even if it doesn't pay, they have nothing to loose.

Well, they will learn eventually after getting no payment for their works.

It shouldn't be taken as a work but rather getting paid for what would you post anyway.

[BitCoinDream]

The way UpDown has behaved with his campaigners... he has actually unleashed a ferocious army against his business. Now, not only ont BitcoinTalk, but also on reddit or elsewhere, wherever UpDown will try to campaign, people will bad name him/his business. Someone may try to Dox him too...

[zetaray]

How are we going to unite? No one should join any campaign unless escrowed?

Would every member remove their updown sig help? They are not going to be paid unless someone or group can: pulldown their site, delist their TBF membership, or sox them out.

[Stunna]

We do our best to act as ethically and transparent as possible and I feel that users of this site know that we honor our word/payment as long as they do not spam.

[zimmah]

He did not pay me for last month while the first two weeks i got paid.

I have changed my signature today as well and changed my feedback from positive to negative.

[zolace]

PrimeDice advertisers please use our thread for signature discussion.

Stunna this is not against you, is  against uptown and bad sig owners. you dont have to worry about this unite act,  your golden already so need to worry

Zimmah awesome IMAO

Also im going to put his website on scammer sites listed so people can stay away so you uptown have 10 more hours, I will give links to the site so you can guys can report him there too.  Not gonna allow this op to take advantage of any of us.

[zimmah]

Why don't you just switch to a reputable campaign and let everyone make their own decisions? If they want to get scammed - let them, it's none of your concern.

so having a record of previous payouts and being a gold member of bitcoin foundation is not reputable enough?

scammers will scam anyway, no matter how reputable they might have been in the past.

the only way to stop it is by organizing and forming a team against them to show them they can't get away with it.

[commandrix]

I got paid by Luckybit just now. Decent outfit (made .05 BTC). I think I'm going to make my signature a referral link to see how that works until I'm a Full member at least, just to see how that works compared to Luckybit.

[tspacepilot]

There are too many members here, some will jump to any campaign even if it doesn't pay, they have nothing to loose.

Well, they will learn eventually after getting no payment for their works.

It shouldn't be taken as a work but rather getting paid for what would you post anyway.

I understand this point, but I think it detracts from the issue.  Whether or not this is "work" may be debatable, but it's clear that it is a contract.  A failure to fulfill contracts is the relevant context, I believe.

How are we going to unite? No one should join any campaign unless escrowed?

Would every member remove their updown sig help? They are not going to be paid unless someone or group can: pulldown their site, delist their TBF membership, or sox them out.

I suggest coming up with a set of "best practices" or "community guidelines" or whatever you want to call them.  Essentially, I want to help engender a culture whereby advertizers know that if they mistreat even a few of their ad-bearers, all of the adbearers will drop the ad until things are fixed.  I note that in the case of Up/Down there were issues even back when he was doing things weekly.  If people had stuck together in that moment and dropped the advert together, this fracas of a month of free advertizing would have never happened.

And, to address your second point, I know that if I had worn an up/down signature all month last month, I would have text that says: "the following website is currently in arrears on payment to contractors, visiting this site is not advised" just above the updown ad.  Ideally, all the updown campaigners would join and this would put more pressure on updown to resolve the situation sooner (I believe).

PrimeDice advertisers please use our thread for signature discussion.

I've heard no bad reports from Stunna's advertizers.  I just joined the campaign myself.  This thread is to talk about what kinds of things campaigners can do to support each other when campaigners are not so upstanding.

[ThomasCrowne]

i'm with ya. after getting screwed by tradefortress and bitcoinsports.eu, i gave up on signature advertising for a while. minersource has been good so far, but i see what you mean with all the problems around updown.bt and xbtec.

My idea is basically to start a culture whereby when this kinda thing happens, all the campaigners drop the signature at the same moment.   Let's call it the equivalent of a strike.   So, for example, perhaps as a staring point, I'd suggest that when a campaigner who doesn't pay all the participants by 24hours past the time agreed upon, all the campaigners should immediately remove the signature until the campaigner settles the debt.  If everyone acts in soldiarity, the campaigner would basically realize that he's not going to get away with any free advertizing, he needs to make everything right before anyone would be willing to bear his ad.

A stronger version of this, which I'm not 100% sure is a good idea, would be to place text over the ad which says "UNRESOLVED ISSUES WITH COMPANY X---DO NOT BUY".  I think this would be a sort of extreme measure.  Say after a campaigner has failed to rectify the debt for weeks and is not willing to negotiate to make it right.

Great in concept but I suspect this would be about as easy as convincing the bitcoin core developers to change bitcoin's PoW mechanism.  Only way something like this could possibly work in my opinion is if all participants 'pool' their collective payouts and agree to evenly dispurse said funds amongst all existing members (essentially spreading the loss out amongst many).  Mandatory membership!  Won't happen.

[tspacepilot]

i'm with ya. after getting screwed by tradefortress and bitcoinsports.eu, i gave up on signature advertising for a while. minersource has been good so far, but i see what you mean with all the problems around updown.bt and xbtec.

My idea is basically to start a culture whereby when this kinda thing happens, all the campaigners drop the signature at the same moment.   Let's call it the equivalent of a strike.   So, for example, perhaps as a staring point, I'd suggest that when a campaigner who doesn't pay all the participants by 24hours past the time agreed upon, all the campaigners should immediately remove the signature until the campaigner settles the debt.  If everyone acts in soldiarity, the campaigner would basically realize that he's not going to get away with any free advertizing, he needs to make everything right before anyone would be willing to bear his ad.

A stronger version of this, which I'm not 100% sure is a good idea, would be to place text over the ad which says "UNRESOLVED ISSUES WITH COMPANY X---DO NOT BUY".  I think this would be a sort of extreme measure.  Say after a campaigner has failed to rectify the debt for weeks and is not willing to negotiate to make it right.

Great in concept but I suspect this would be about as easy as convincing the bitcoin core developers to change bitcoin's PoW mechanism.  Only way something like this could possibly work in my opinion is if all participants 'pool' their collective payouts and agree to evenly dispurse said funds amongst all existing members (essentially spreading the loss out amongst many).  Mandatory membership!  Won't happen.

No, no, I wouldn't ever want to try to get anything "mandatory" going on.  I'm simply talking about the culture. Note the message that bitcoininformation has on his profile now (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=615953.0).  That's the kind of action I'm talking about.  I don't know if bitcoininformation was one of those who was done wrong or not.

[Mitchell]

No, no, I wouldn't ever want to try to get anything "mandatory" going on.  I'm simply talking about the culture. Note the message that bitcoininformation has on his profile now (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=615953.0).  That's the kind of action I'm talking about.  I don't know if bitcoininformation was one of those who was done wrong or not.

I got paid correctly, but I do not agree with his actions (even though I defended him for a while). So I decided to leave his campaign and change my signature to reflect my opinion about it. 

Yes, I have joined another signature campaign, but they allowed me to keep that message (which is the one of my main reason that I joined them).

[tspacepilot]

No, no, I wouldn't ever want to try to get anything "mandatory" going on.  I'm simply talking about the culture. Note the message that bitcoininformation has on his profile now (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=615953.0).  That's the kind of action I'm talking about.  I don't know if bitcoininformation was one of those who was done wrong or not.

I got paid correctly, but I do not agree with his actions (even though I defended him for a while). So I decided to leave his campaign and change my signature to reflect my opinion about it. 

Yes, I have joined another signature campaign, but they allowed me to keep that message (which is the one of my main reason that I joined them).

That's very cool, bitcoininformation, this is essentially the kind of solidarity that I'm trying to promote!  I think you're setting a very good trend with this.

[Malin Keshar]

Make a labor union of signature renters? I doubt it would work. There are few trusted signature campaigns, only one or two open, and no qualification needed to join the market. Plus lots of greedy and dumbness from many people to make collective movements works.

Maybe in the future, if we get more advertisers, and with more bitcoins business. Maybe...

[tspacepilot]

Make a labor union of signature renters? I doubt it would work. There are few trusted signature campaigns, only one or two open, and no qualification needed to join the market. Plus lots of greedy and dumbness from many people to make collective movements works.

Maybe in the future, if we get more advertisers, and with more bitcoins business. Maybe...

I think what I'm suggesting at this point is much more informal than any official union.  However, you're right that it's the spirit of solidarity and looking out for each other that I'm trying to promote.  I suggest that and injury to one is and injury to all and that if we stick together to demand good treatment and professional contracts from the advertizers that overall the marketplace will be healthier and will thrive.

[monbux]

Make a labor union of signature renters? I doubt it would work. There are few trusted signature campaigns, only one or two open, and no qualification needed to join the market. Plus lots of greedy and dumbness from many people to make collective movements works.

Maybe in the future, if we get more advertisers, and with more bitcoins business. Maybe...

I think what I'm suggesting at this point is much more informal than any official union.  However, you're right that it's the spirit of solidarity and looking out for each other that I'm trying to promote.  I suggest that and injury to one is and injury to all and that if we stick together to demand good treatment and professional contracts from the advertizers that overall the marketplace will be healthier and will thrive.

You are suggesting.. a union?  Dude, this is a forum.  We should really be taking getting paid per post as a privilege, not a right. 
A union would be very hard to organize, and it'll just promote greed.

[sed]

Make a labor union of signature renters? I doubt it would work. There are few trusted signature campaigns, only one or two open, and no qualification needed to join the market. Plus lots of greedy and dumbness from many people to make collective movements works.

Maybe in the future, if we get more advertisers, and with more bitcoins business. Maybe...

I think what I'm suggesting at this point is much more informal than any official union.  However, you're right that it's the spirit of solidarity and looking out for each other that I'm trying to promote.  I suggest that and injury to one is and injury to all and that if we stick together to demand good treatment and professional contracts from the advertizers that overall the marketplace will be healthier and will thrive.

You are suggesting.. a union?  Dude, this is a forum.  We should really be taking getting paid per post as a privilege, not a right. 
A union would be very hard to organize, and it'll just promote greed.

monbux, I think he's saying that he's not suggesting a union.  I read the thread and tspacepilot says at least 4 or 5 times that he's not trying to make a union/anything mandatory.

[tspacepilot]

Make a labor union of signature renters? I doubt it would work. There are few trusted signature campaigns, only one or two open, and no qualification needed to join the market. Plus lots of greedy and dumbness from many people to make collective movements works.

Maybe in the future, if we get more advertisers, and with more bitcoins business. Maybe...

I think what I'm suggesting at this point is much more informal than any official union.  However, you're right that it's the spirit of solidarity and looking out for each other that I'm trying to promote.  I suggest that and injury to one is and injury to all and that if we stick together to demand good treatment and professional contracts from the advertizers that overall the marketplace will be healthier and will thrive.

You are suggesting.. a union?  Dude, this is a forum.  We should really be taking getting paid per post as a privilege, not a right. 
A union would be very hard to organize, and it'll just promote greed.

Geez, I keep having to reiterate that I am not trying to form a union.  For the record then:

I am not organizing a union.

I am talking about acceptable/unacceptable practices by advertizers and how to avoid them/how they can be nipped in the bud.  I think this has to do with the kind of action that bitcoininformation is taking.  He's making a statement about an advertizer who has not paid all his contractees even though he himself was paid.

Noboday said that getting paid to post is a right.  But if I make a contract with someone to pay me to bear their advertizement, if they default on that contract that is a serious matter.  IMHO, it's the greed of others when people don't stick together that allows campaigns to get away with this stuff.  Note that before up/down went away for a month, he already had failed to pay a certain subset of his contractees during the weekly rounds.  However, because of greed, people continued to bear his signature and he got away with stolen advertizing and broken contracts for another month.

Please folks, I want to talk about what we expect from advertizers who want to rent space, I don't want to officially organize you into a union.  I want to promote a culture of honesty and comaradery.  See my earlier post with concrete suggestions about the conditions under which contracts should be made and what people should do when those conditions aren't met.  Note again that this is my opinion about what people should do.  I cannot force anyone to do anything nor would I want to.

[Brewins]

That informal union should be aware that people will try to scam you.
People don't paid due to spamming will act like they are victmin, people that change signature in the middle of the month and don't get paid will make the same. So you'll need at leas the same level of verification of posts and signatures as the campaigns do.