Those who rent out signature space---Unite!

[tspacepilot]

That informal union should be aware that people will try to scam you.
People don't paid due to spamming will act like they are victmin, people that change signature in the middle of the month and don't get paid will make the same. So you'll need at leas the same level of verification of posts and signatures as the campaigns do.

For sure, but to be clear, those people are mainly trying to scam the advertizer.  Everyone has a responsibility to evaluate anyone's claims for him/herself.  If someone isn't deserving of payment, I think that's a pretty important topic to bring up in this context.  When, exactly, is someone not deserving of payment?  Obviously this will be dependent on the conditions of the particular campaign.  Where I think this "informal union" may be of use is driving advertizers to be specific about those conditions beforehand.  That is, if our culture is strong, we won't just throw a signature on willy-nilly, but instead we'll say to the advertizer.  First, you need to clearly:

1) lay out the conditions of the campaign (what posts count, in what subfora, etc)
2) lay out the conditions of payment (what day, for what term, who does the counting, should pms be sent)
etc  ...?

This is what this discussion should be about.  What sorts of conditions should a campaign be run under?  What is fair for both advertizers and their contractees?

[Mitchell]

That's very cool, bitcoininformation, this is essentially the kind of solidarity that I'm trying to promote!  I think you're setting a very good trend with this.

I do what I always do, trying to help out. And if I can help you guys out with my signature, I will.

I think it's very good that I may retain my signature from FastBluff. Definitely 10 points for them.

[monbux]

Make a labor union of signature renters? I doubt it would work. There are few trusted signature campaigns, only one or two open, and no qualification needed to join the market. Plus lots of greedy and dumbness from many people to make collective movements works.

Maybe in the future, if we get more advertisers, and with more bitcoins business. Maybe...

I think what I'm suggesting at this point is much more informal than any official union.  However, you're right that it's the spirit of solidarity and looking out for each other that I'm trying to promote.  I suggest that and injury to one is and injury to all and that if we stick together to demand good treatment and professional contracts from the advertizers that overall the marketplace will be healthier and will thrive.

You are suggesting.. a union?  Dude, this is a forum.  We should really be taking getting paid per post as a privilege, not a right. 
A union would be very hard to organize, and it'll just promote greed.

Geez, I keep having to reiterate that I am not trying to form a union.  For the record then:

I am not organizing a union.

I am talking about acceptable/unacceptable practices by advertizers and how to avoid them/how they can be nipped in the bud.  I think this has to do with the kind of action that bitcoininformation is taking.  He's making a statement about an advertizer who has not paid all his contractees even though he himself was paid.

Noboday said that getting paid to post is a right.  But if I make a contract with someone to pay me to bear their advertizement, if they default on that contract that is a serious matter.  IMHO, it's the greed of others when people don't stick together that allows campaigns to get away with this stuff.  Note that before up/down went away for a month, he already had failed to pay a certain subset of his contractees during the weekly rounds.  However, because of greed, people continued to bear his signature and he got away with stolen advertizing and broken contracts for another month.

Please folks, I want to talk about what we expect from advertizers who want to rent space, I don't want to officially organize you into a union.  I want to promote a culture of honesty and comaradery.  See my earlier post with concrete suggestions about the conditions under which contracts should be made and what people should do when those conditions aren't met.  Note again that this is my opinion about what people should do.  I cannot force anyone to do anything nor would I want to.

That's still a union IMO, what you're suggesting.  I have no problem with that.  I think that we should just continue what we have now; everyone is free to decide which campaign to join, they should judge it themselves.  If that campaign does not payout, you leave negative feedback, and you take off the signature.  Isn't that what you're suggesting?  If so, don't we already have that now?

Also, if an advertiser wanted to scam, everyone removing their signatures would just encourage the advertiser to run faster.

[JerryCurlzzz]

well, at least xbtec paid out... updown still a mess. it's being discontinued, right?

[Armed]

Why don't you just switch to a reputable campaign and let everyone make their own decisions? If they want to get scammed - let them, it's none of your concern.

No. There will be more threads like this if a lot of them gets no pay. Its better to support everyone. 
Lucky enough someone like tspacepilot voice it out.

But why is it so hard to just go with a reputable campaign instead of a new one that promises ridiculously high rates? If the offer is too good to be true - then it is exactly that.

[tspacepilot]

Why don't you just switch to a reputable campaign and let everyone make their own decisions? If they want to get scammed - let them, it's none of your concern.

No. There will be more threads like this if a lot of them gets no pay. Its better to support everyone. 
Lucky enough someone like tspacepilot voice it out.

But why is it so hard to just go with a reputable campaign instead of a new one that promises ridiculously high rates? If the offer is too good to be true - then it is exactly that.

Armed, you're missing the point here.  It's not about choosing a reputable campaign or overlooking things which are too good to be true.  This is about sticking together when a campaign advertizer tries to screw some contractees but not others.  Take a look at what happened in the xbtec thread, when some of the members with visible trust gave negative feedback, the problem was resolved for all the others within hours.  Note that those guys that gave the visible feedback had been paid themselves, but they put the negative feedback as a sort of solidarity with the others who had been screwed.

[Mitchell]

UpDown.BT has just send their final payments and I have removed my negative trust rating and signature accordingly. Glad to see everything got sorted out in the end.

EDIT: It seems that UpDown.BT hasn't paid everyone yet. Negative reputation and signature has been added again.

[umair127]

Thank you community for sticking up for us members that didnt get paid.

[Armed]

Why don't you just switch to a reputable campaign and let everyone make their own decisions? If they want to get scammed - let them, it's none of your concern.

No. There will be more threads like this if a lot of them gets no pay. Its better to support everyone. 
Lucky enough someone like tspacepilot voice it out.

But why is it so hard to just go with a reputable campaign instead of a new one that promises ridiculously high rates? If the offer is too good to be true - then it is exactly that.

Armed, you're missing the point here.  It's not about choosing a reputable campaign or overlooking things which are too good to be true.  This is about sticking together when a campaign advertizer tries to screw some contractees but not others.  Take a look at what happened in the xbtec thread, when some of the members with visible trust gave negative feedback, the problem was resolved for all the others within hours.  Note that those guys that gave the visible feedback had been paid themselves, but they put the negative feedback as a sort of solidarity with the others who had been screwed.

Well, of course you should put negative trust on people who deserve it. If you've been scammed, go to scam accusations and make your case, get a person from the default trust list to mark the scammer, if your claim is valid.

[tspacepilot]

Why don't you just switch to a reputable campaign and let everyone make their own decisions? If they want to get scammed - let them, it's none of your concern.

No. There will be more threads like this if a lot of them gets no pay. Its better to support everyone. 
Lucky enough someone like tspacepilot voice it out.

But why is it so hard to just go with a reputable campaign instead of a new one that promises ridiculously high rates? If the offer is too good to be true - then it is exactly that.

Armed, you're missing the point here.  It's not about choosing a reputable campaign or overlooking things which are too good to be true.  This is about sticking together when a campaign advertizer tries to screw some contractees but not others.  Take a look at what happened in the xbtec thread, when some of the members with visible trust gave negative feedback, the problem was resolved for all the others within hours.  Note that those guys that gave the visible feedback had been paid themselves, but they put the negative feedback as a sort of solidarity with the others who had been screwed.

Well, of course you should put negative trust on people who deserve it. If you've been scammed, go to scam accusations and make your case, get a person from the default trust list to mark the scammer, if your claim is valid.

Well, I'm glad you agree.  I think we can take it to the next level, though.  If people decide the kind of things that the advertizers need to get together before the campaign starts (say details about payment timing, for example), and then refuse to add the signature until these kinds of things are clarified up front, it seems to me that a lot of unfortunate scenarios that we have witnessed could be prevented.  Really, I'm not trying to shove anything down anyone's throat, I'm just trying to faciliate a discussion about how to best stick together and get a better marketplace for the advertizers and campaigners.

[btcton]

You can't tell us to unite and then say it's not a union . I previously used the overview thread for this, but I guess we could switch.

[burekzastonj]

I guess you are right, but in general it's your choice who to pick. As i can see you use one of the best or maybe the best sig campaign provider.

[tspacepilot]

You can't tell us to unite and then say it's not a union . I previously used the overview thread for this, but I guess we could switch.

Sure I can.  The same way that I can say we should drink a beer together and yet say that I am not enforcing rules on how we drink beer.  I think you're having fun with the pun, which is fine.  But in all seriousness a 'union' implies a certain formal organization whereas the act of uniting is as generic as the interpretation in the moment.

For more such examples, consider that you and your mates may congress in the hallway, that does not mean you've been elected to the United States Congress; you can jockey your way into a line, that does not mean you're necessarily on a horse; you can advocate for your idea, this does not mean you are a barrister, et much c.

About the overview thread, I think the main point there is to categorize the offers currently available.  The point here is to discuss measures of solidarity and to build culture.  I think that they don't really overlap such that one supercedes the other.

[Mitchell]

About the overview thread, I think the main point there is to categorize the offers currently available.  The point here is to discuss measures of solidarity and to build culture.  I think that they don't really overlap such that one supercedes the other.

Exactly. My overview topic is just about showing available campaigns and basic information about it. Updates about campaigns and a few personal opinions are allowed, but really discussing stuff on there is discouraged.

[sed]

Hey bitcoininformation,

Did this thread influence you in putting the protest message about UPDOWN on your signature, or was that something that you already were going to do?

[h0lybyte]

I thought about it earlier, the best solution would be to setup a 3rd party escrow/marketplace for signature selling.

1) Advertisers joins Marketplace, confirms he/she is the owner(operator) of the said domain.
2) Advertiser setups up campaign and funds the said campaign through a multi-signature amoung (Marketplace Admin, Advertisement and 3rd Party External Escrow)
3) Posters join the Marketplace, and apply for campaigns.
4) Advertiser, Poster and Escrow agree to said commitments (for campaign)
5) Marketplace data-mines the posters activity every X amount of time: checks to ensure poster doesnt remove said signature, quality checks the posts, keeps a daily post count log
6) Upon the end of the agreement, payments get made.


Seems simple, it can also be expandable to other forums and also helps all the said parties.
~ Advertisers get a flexible and semi-automatic system
~ Posters get the ability to find promising campaigns and the ability for an escrow.


If anyone has any interest in doing this type of system, let me know because I already have something like this in mind and could easily build it off of an existing script (that I have).

[tspacepilot]

I thought about it earlier, the best solution would be to setup a 3rd party escrow/marketplace for signature selling.

1) Advertisers joins Marketplace, confirms he/she is the owner(operator) of the said domain.
2) Advertiser setups up campaign and funds the said campaign through a multi-signature amoung (Marketplace Admin, Advertisement and 3rd Party External Escrow)
3) Posters join the Marketplace, and apply for campaigns.
4) Advertiser, Poster and Escrow agree to said commitments (for campaign)
5) Marketplace data-mines the posters activity every X amount of time: checks to ensure poster doesnt remove said signature, quality checks the posts, keeps a daily post count log
6) Upon the end of the agreement, payments get made.


Seems simple, it can also be expandable to other forums and also helps all the said parties.
~ Advertisers get a flexible and semi-automatic system
~ Posters get the ability to find promising campaigns and the ability for an escrow.


If anyone has any interest in doing this type of system, let me know because I already have something like this in mind and could easily build it off of an existing script (that I have).

Could be very cool.  I used the bitmixer.io campaign for a while and I can say that the automated part is also very convenient for the posters.

[Mitchell]

Hey bitcoininformation,

Did this thread influence you in putting the protest message about UPDOWN on your signature, or was that something that you already were going to do?

No, I changed it before this was created. It was discussed on the UpDown.BT Signature Campaign topic and I decided to join them.
FastBluff was kind enough to let me keep the signature, because I'm active member in this community (and as long as his campaign is on on top).

[sed]

Hey bitcoininformation,

Did this thread influence you in putting the protest message about UPDOWN on your signature, or was that something that you already were going to do?

No, I changed it before this was created. It was discussed on the UpDown.BT Signature Campaign topic and I decided to join them.
FastBluff was kind enough to let me keep the signature, because I'm active member in this community (and as long as his campaign is on on top).

fair enough.  I think it's cool of you.  Can anyone who knows more about the situation update us on the current state of affairs?  has anyone else been paid yet?  is there any movement at all?

[Muhammed Zakir]

i'm with ya. after getting screwed by tradefortress and bitcoinsports.eu, i gave up on signature advertising for a while. minersource has been good so far, but i see what you mean with all the problems around updown.bt and xbtec.

I heard about XBTec but not updown.bt . Anyway it is really bad, if they didn't pay.

IMO the forum can make an option for that. Every advertisers can make an option and pay at that time, 1st day of each week or month and participants can apply on any service. This forum can use Coinbase for paying as it has automatic sending option. So we can guarantee the payment better that trusting a person who pay. I don't know whether it can be established, I just told my opinion/suggestion.

Kindly,
        MZ