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Author Topic: Zero-spread on Bitcoinica  (Read 2116 times)
zhoutong
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March 13, 2012, 11:43:38 PM
 #1

We are offering zero-spread on Bitcoinica again for the next 12 hours to thank you for your kind co-operation in our bad-tick-incidence a few hours ago.

The rules are the same as before, just market depth, no mark-up spreads. We will pay Mt. Gox fees for hedging ourselves.

In case you didn't notice, we have already sent out compensations of $0.80 per BTC for all liquidated short positions. You can check your ledger for that.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

Donations for my future Bitcoin projects: 19Uk3tiD5XkBcmHyQYhJxp9QHoub7RosVb
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MelMan2002
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March 13, 2012, 11:46:21 PM
 #2

I noticed that the spread shrunk really fast.  Nice!
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March 14, 2012, 12:19:02 AM
 #3

In case you didn't notice, we have already sent out compensations of $0.80 per BTC for all liquidated short positions. You can check your ledger for that.

My short of 4.xx BTC leveraged up to -35 BTC was liquidated and I do not see any deposits into my account.

Settlement @ 4.3854   20.4198      -2.6243   13 Mar 11:30
Position #10824 swap   0.0971      -23.0441   13 Mar 11:30
Position #10824 liquidated @ 5.4703 (Forced)      23.3368   -23.1412   13 Mar 11:30

Is that what the settlement is? Im confused??? Huh
Flappy
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March 14, 2012, 12:23:34 AM
 #4

Stop sell orders below 4.8 should not have executed.  These should be reversed.

EDIT:

Like this one:
Position #11057 liquidated @ 4.4549

I won't be using stop orders again until the algorithm is fixed.


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March 14, 2012, 12:27:39 AM
 #5

I wonder what will happen with zero spread Smiley

(BFL)^2 < 0
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March 14, 2012, 12:34:49 AM
 #6

Does it show up on the ledger as "Settlement"? My short got liquidated, some of it forced, some of it merely far above where my stop was, and I don't seem to have anything on my ledger except for those liquidations at 11:30 and 11:31, then an interest payment. My balance certainly isn't any bigger....

Edit: Still nothing for me... Looking back through my order history it seems that it liquidated my short, then bought up a third of my stop buy set at 5.09 for 5.47 (because I didn't have enough margin since it liquidated wayyy above my stop), and subsequently liquidated that buy at 4.84? What exactly happened, and am I unlucky enough to not get any compensation for my liquidated short? I understand this was a big clusterfuck thanks to a huge, quick move and not really your fault, I'm just amazed that I lost 96% of my balance despite taking measures to cap my loss at ~25%.
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March 14, 2012, 05:09:10 PM
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Does it show up on the ledger as "Settlement"? My short got liquidated, some of it forced, some of it merely far above where my stop was, and I don't seem to have anything on my ledger except for those liquidations at 11:30 and 11:31, then an interest payment. My balance certainly isn't any bigger....

Edit: Still nothing for me... Looking back through my order history it seems that it liquidated my short, then bought up a third of my stop buy set at 5.09 for 5.47 (because I didn't have enough margin since it liquidated wayyy above my stop), and subsequently liquidated that buy at 4.84? What exactly happened, and am I unlucky enough to not get any compensation for my liquidated short? I understand this was a big clusterfuck thanks to a huge, quick move and not really your fault, I'm just amazed that I lost 96% of my balance despite taking measures to cap my loss at ~25%.

Zhoutong will claim that .30 slippage and having stop orders not execute properly is the "industry standard" according to his reply to me. This is looking more and more like Bitcoinica was out to just rip off there own customers by force liquidating using the spike/slippage as an excuse.

After 24hrs, $5.47 is yet to be seem again at bitcoinica. If the people aren't compensated properly for this, this is clearly an outright ripoff. I am personally in the process of gathering all the necessary information to show with a timeline of what happened within the timeframe of the spike and how they handled my orders to the public soon. This should shed some needed light into this matter. I encourage others to gather your own details and publish them here.
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March 14, 2012, 05:34:01 PM
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Does it show up on the ledger as "Settlement"? My short got liquidated, some of it forced, some of it merely far above where my stop was, and I don't seem to have anything on my ledger except for those liquidations at 11:30 and 11:31, then an interest payment. My balance certainly isn't any bigger....

Edit: Still nothing for me... Looking back through my order history it seems that it liquidated my short, then bought up a third of my stop buy set at 5.09 for 5.47 (because I didn't have enough margin since it liquidated wayyy above my stop), and subsequently liquidated that buy at 4.84? What exactly happened, and am I unlucky enough to not get any compensation for my liquidated short? I understand this was a big clusterfuck thanks to a huge, quick move and not really your fault, I'm just amazed that I lost 96% of my balance despite taking measures to cap my loss at ~25%.

Zhoutong will claim that .30 slippage and having stop orders not execute properly is the "industry standard" according to his reply to me. This is looking more and more like Bitcoinica was out to just rip off there own customers by force liquidating using the spike/slippage as an excuse.

After 24hrs, $5.47 is yet to be seem again at bitcoinica. If the people aren't compensated properly for this, this is clearly an outright ripoff. I am personally in the process of gathering all the necessary information to show with a timeline of what happened within the timeframe of the spike and how they handled my orders to the public soon. This should shed some needed light into this matter. I encourage others to gather your own details and publish them here.

I doubt he was trying to rip us off, unless hes planning to get out of the business soon. He's had too much negative press, and bad things happen (Linode theft) to think it wise to purposefully rip us off, he's probably just trying to avoid more financial pain. The market is quite small, so that sort of slippage is understandable. With that said, making excuses about industry standards is quite tilted when I dare say the industry standard includes having stop limits to help prevent such fiascoes. I'm definitely not happy with losing 96% of my money on there, but I will admit to being more leveraged than I should have been. Even still, had a not been leveraged I would still be pissed about a bullshit spread, and I probably still would have lost a good 50% of my money thanks to the general preposterousness of the spread and what not.

I'll try to detail what exactly happened to my positions once I have more time.
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March 14, 2012, 08:34:55 PM
 #9

The rules are the same as before, just market depth, no mark-up spreads. We will pay Mt. Gox fees for hedging ourselves.

This does nothing to compensate those who took a loss because of your slipshod service.

Look at this order history!

        344068   BTCUSD   Stop    50.0   $5.0900   13 Mar 08:30   Executed @ 5.4691
 ---> 330691   BTCUSD   Stop   -50.0   $4.7000   13 Mar 08:30   Executed @ 4.4549  <--- the very next block!
        330690   BTCUSD   Stop    50.0   $5.0900   13 Mar 08:30   Executed @ 5.4703   <--- this executes first

First a buy is triggered at 5.09.  It executes at 5.47
Then a sell is triggered at 4.7, and executes at 4.45   <--- EXPLAIN THIS!!!
Again a buy triggers at 5.09 and executes at 5.46

All within seconds.
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March 14, 2012, 09:36:43 PM
 #10

I think there was a massive fail in the software.

344162   BTCUSD   Market   1450.0   -           14 Mar 02:30   469093688149081
344142   BTCUSD   Stop           150.0   $5.1600   14 Mar 02:30   Insufficient Margin
344115   BTCUSD   Market   1450.0   -           14 Mar 02:30   4703442344361655
344109   BTCUSD   Market   1450.0   -           14 Mar 02:30   4703442344361655
344091   BTCUSD   Stop           150.0   $5.1400   14 Mar 02:30   Insufficient Margin

Insufficient margin for a market stop cover order? right. This is also moments after trying to execute a sell at a lower price.

I understand slippage and a lot of stuff happening at once causing problems...but I'm still waiting for an explanation of the above.

This stuff apparently tried to execute at 02:30, when all the big stuff happened an hour later if I'm not mistaken. Zhou what have you done?
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March 14, 2012, 10:30:28 PM
 #11

The rules are the same as before, just market depth, no mark-up spreads. We will pay Mt. Gox fees for hedging ourselves.

This does nothing to compensate those who took a loss because of your slipshod service.

Look at this order history!

        344068   BTCUSD   Stop    50.0   $5.0900   13 Mar 08:30   Executed @ 5.4691
 ---> 330691   BTCUSD   Stop   -50.0   $4.7000   13 Mar 08:30   Executed @ 4.4549  <--- the very next block!
        330690   BTCUSD   Stop    50.0   $5.0900   13 Mar 08:30   Executed @ 5.4703   <--- this executes first

First a buy is triggered at 5.09.  It executes at 5.47
Then a sell is triggered at 4.7, and executes at 4.45   <--- EXPLAIN THIS!!!
Again a buy triggers at 5.09 and executes at 5.46

All within seconds.



same shit on my account
Flappy
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March 15, 2012, 12:16:17 AM
 #12

Zhou will always be mtgox api's bitch..

Live and learn..

That's irrelevant.  Mtgox never went below 4.85.  If Zhou lost connectivity then he should pause trading!  It's inexcusable to execute orders like this.  Offering zero margin is more of an insult than a compensation.
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March 16, 2012, 10:56:16 PM
 #13

Zhoutong will claim that .30 slippage and having stop orders not execute properly is the "industry standard" according to his reply to me.

Has anyone else contacted Zhou and gotten a response, or received a settlement? I sent Bitcoinica an email the other day and haven't received a response. I'd at least appreciate the courtesy of a "Suck it up, your moneys gone." Glad this happened before I put more money in.
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March 16, 2012, 11:56:42 PM
 #14

Zhoutong will claim that .30 slippage and having stop orders not execute properly is the "industry standard" according to his reply to me.

Has anyone else contacted Zhou and gotten a response, or received a settlement? I sent Bitcoinica an email the other day and haven't received a response. I'd at least appreciate the courtesy of a "Suck it up, your moneys gone." Glad this happened before I put more money in.

I haven't received a response from my query, yet, which suggests they're either:

1. ignoring the problem hoping it goes away
2. trying to figure out exactly what happened before salvaging their reputation
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March 17, 2012, 12:00:13 AM
 #15

What exactly happened?
Hunterbunter
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March 17, 2012, 12:08:57 AM
 #16

What exactly happened?

For me, my order history had status' that were just huge numbers, eg "232345623623456235235". It wasn't very clear "what happened" when zhou's glorious algorithms cleared one of my accounts of USD. In fact, very little is accounted for.

None of my stop losses executed, an hour before the actual increase in price.

I think others are complaining about similar but different things.
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