How we crypto-geeks get it wrong & the reality of altcoin success.

[First.Bitcoins]

99.9% of users of altcoins only care about one thing; Bitcoin.

That's why most alts fail. It doesn't matter how innovative the coin is, if it gains in value, there's enough people to drive it to the ground. It happens time and time again.

If you wanted a coin to have any long term value, you'd keep it off exchanges, and focus entirely on building infrastructure to use the coin directly for purchasing goods and services.

VERY well said, some great points there.

The #1 objective for most users, whether they're miners, devs, speculators, etc is to increase their wealth in Bitcoins. Altcoins are a means of achieving this and that's pretty much all it seems to boil down to as far as altcoins are concerned.

The mistake we make here, is that we view this forum as the world. It is not. As we have found in pounding the streets, building our user base, 80% of those we talk to, do not even know what bitcoin is.

I don't believe we need to go so far as removing an altcoin from the exchanges, as market liquidity is important. Just recognize that the value set by the members of this forum is miniscule compared to the potential longterm value of a successful altcoin.

[First.Bitcoins]

An update from the field...

We have had so many support requests from users who just can't get their head around concepts (that we crypto geeks take for granted) like wallets, mining, blocks, pools, faucets; that we had to add a section in our forum, walking them through each step, just one at a time.

You can see that here, if interested: Getting Started

As I posted at the beginning of this thread, these users have no interest at all in the latest algorithms, etc. that we crypto geeks are so proud of.

[AliceWonder]

bitcoin desperately needs at least one alternative.

Business needs to keep incoming separate from outgoing because bitcoin can be traced through the blockchain.

Using mixers might be illegal in the US, even if your intent is not to launder money, it seems using services where the purpose is to obfuscate the source might violate money laundering laws.

A stable altcoin allows you to sell incoming btc for that altcoin on one exchange and buy bitcoin with that altcoin on another exchange for your outgoing, thus keeping incoming and outgoing compartmentalized.

There probably need to be several successful altcoins.

Also, having just one crypto-currency is a single point of failure should a serious problem occur in bitcoin that prevents buying/selling with it.

[virtualx]

bitcoin desperately needs at least one alternative.

Business needs to keep incoming separate from outgoing because bitcoin can be traced through the blockchain.

Using mixers might be illegal in the US, even if your intent is not to launder money, it seems using services where the purpose is to obfuscate the source might violate money laundering laws.

A stable altcoin allows you to sell incoming btc for that altcoin on one exchange and buy bitcoin with that altcoin on another exchange for your outgoing, thus keeping incoming and outgoing compartmentalized.

There probably need to be several successful altcoins.

Also, having just one crypto-currency is a single point of failure should a serious problem occur in bitcoin that prevents buying/selling with it.

There are so many alt coins.. it's not just one alternative anymore. There's just so many out there - that the average user doesn't know which one to pick, except for BTC

But I think some alt coins serve special interests groups, as a value for exchange.

[GreenBacksTeam]

We believe that another key is for it to be completely open-source and to have the community innovative and execute. Too many alts rely 100% on the creator to do all the work, but the coins that truly succeed including Bitcoin have communities who contribute. 1 person can only develop and code so many features over a month, but 10 people working on 10 projects might be release 6 things in a month and keep a coin relevant. this is something we are focusing on with GreenBacks once we launch.

[Triffin]

An update from the field...

We have had so many support requests from users who just can't get their head around concepts (that we crypto geeks take for granted) like wallets, mining, blocks, pools, faucets; that we had to add a section in our forum, walking them through each step, just one at a time.

You can see that here, if interested: Getting Started

As I posted at the beginning of this thread, these users have no interest at all in the latest algorithms, etc. that we crypto geeks are so proud of.

+100

Mass adoption = simple, intuitive, secure, useable WALLET
If you build it .. They will come ..

Triff ..  

[First.Bitcoins]

I have to post this, it is just too funny, and illustrates my point about the foolishness of crypto geeks.
I just read this in the Poloniex Exchange Chat Box (I have removed the real userids):

xxxxx1: redd is about to go PoSV in what, 8 or 9 days?
xxxxx2: august 3rd, so 10 days I think
xxxxx1: yeah 10 days. I suggest investing as much as you can into redd and holding out to sell as high as you can

Yep, like the user community really cares about PosV?!?!?  

[djarot]

"Although the battle for the anon coins is worth some investment, IMHO"

Fine words OP and couldn't agree more, especially with the above line. I hope the rest of guys involved with anon coins become as level-headed as you in helping the coins and the technologies behind them achieve awesome things!

[Nxtblg]

We believe that another key is for it to be completely open-source and to have the community innovative and execute. Too many alts rely 100% on the creator to do all the work, but the coins that truly succeed including Bitcoin have communities who contribute. 1 person can only develop and code so many features over a month, but 10 people working on 10 projects might be release 6 things in a month and keep a coin relevant. this is something we are focusing on with GreenBacks once we launch.

Then keep your eye on Nxt. An active dev community is precisely what they have going for them.

[Nxtblg]

99.9% of users of altcoins only care about one thing; Bitcoin.

That's why most alts fail. It doesn't matter how innovative the coin is, if it gains in value, there's enough people to drive it to the ground. It happens time and time again.

If you wanted a coin to have any long term value, you'd keep it off exchanges, and focus entirely on building infrastructure to use the coin directly for purchasing goods and services.

VERY well said, some great points there.

The #1 objective for most users, whether they're miners, devs, speculators, etc is to increase their wealth in Bitcoins. Altcoins are a means of achieving this and that's pretty much all it seems to boil down to as far as altcoins are concerned.

Nobody wants to admit it, because everyone wants to protect their assets. I was very enthusiastic when I first joined the cryptocurrency community. I got involved in a lot of promising coins. They all suffered the same fate. They rised, and then they crashed. Most altcoins aren't about innovation. They're about novelty. To make it seem like they're worth something. What's feeding a lot of these coins is the mindset that they will continue to go up in value. That's why coins with new features are so popular.

A lot of people also make the mistake in thinking coins that have died were inherently flawed, or had something wrong with them. In some cases, yes, but in most cases it's simply a matter of what I've explained above. Eventually the dumping begins, and the coin goes into a downward spiral. There are just way too many altcoins to support. People mine, dump and move on. The people who end up financially better off are the ones who know when to dump the coin and move on, while time and time again, I see people holding out hope that the price will go back up. So many bagholders, all caught in this disillusion that their currency will rise again. In 99% cases, they don't, and this is how people profit. They leave you holding the bag, while they're left holding the bitcoin.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is the cold honest truth. Take it from someone who's seen it time and time again. Anyone who tells you otherwise either doesn't understand the way things work here, or is intentionally lying to you. Ever heard of penny stock scams? People will tell you the sky is green if it means they can make a profit from it. A collective group of bag holders, all telling one another their worthless currency is worth something, while others swoop in, mine those coins, and dump them.

That said, there are a small, and I mean very small selection of coins that may have future value. If your coin is less than a couple of months old, then it's 99% unlikely to be that coin. Any coin that can last six months, or a year, and still be left standing has value. Most new coins die. That's a fact. There are more and more coins, further and further diluting the market. Further stretching the bitcoin support across them. They're just penny stocks. The money will always be in bitcoin, or perhaps the top handful of coins beneath it in terms of market share. Everything else is temporary.

Thanks for opening up. I've noticed something like that myself, although I've pegged it as fad-chasing. You are right in that there are some striking parallels between the altcoin "Wild West" and the - regulated! - penny stock market. You can't outlaw human nature...

With respect to the coin I'm involved with, the plain Nxt clone NFD, its blah debut and current listlessness is actually a blessing in disguise. It's a pump-free coin, and I'd rather it stay that way. Gives me and the rest of the dev tem some time to think things through - as in, "would this feature be a real innovation, or are we just chasing the Flying Fickle Finger of Fashionable Fads?" And it also gives me the time I'll need to leave the echo chamber, pound the virtual pavement and find out a few things about the outside world.

Like it or not, folks, the seamy side of life around here will eventually be found out about by the outside world. One Reputation Management lesson I'll never forget was seeing Busoni become a folk hero around here simply by manning up to the Poloniex hack and publicly admitting the truth. 

[atoni]

I dont think you crypto geeks get it wrong, your op is perfectly right

It seems only coin that meets your criteria is wankcoin, you can actually use it for something while infront of your pc coding

[Nxtblg]

A DISCLAIMER BEFORE YOU KEEP READING - I would like to explain what it is like out in the real world, building a longterm user community, and as a coin Dev can really only speak from my experience. I won't give details about the coin (you can get those from my sig if interested) but can't really tell the story without some reference to it.

Thanks for your report. Yes, I'm sure you're facing a challenge: the same kind of challenge I'll be facing with respect to NFD when I start pounding the virtual pavement. That "Ponzi scheme" buzz is pretty much what I expected after losing 0.5 BTC on JuggaloCoin. That coin had - for this part of the world - a huge amount of mainstream press going for it when it launched. I remember being skeptical about its prospects, as I was worried that the Juggalo community would scoff and reject it. But sure enough, the dev of the coin really was a Juggalo in his heart - he had a good heart - and I was charmed by the backstory of the band. Growing up poor ain't easy, but the ICP guys got through it.

So I bought 0.5 BTC's worth, saw the coin's lackluster debut, and then waited for the inevitable. I don't think it's even listed anymore. Another 0.5 BTC down the drain, which could have saved in this case by remaining skeptical. In fact, a post in a Juggalo forum about JuggaloCoin had a lot of scoffing - including some skeptical words from one of the mods - which was similar to the skepticism you faced.

It sounds like your strategy is an elaboration of "roll with the punch," which is pretty wise.

[oldmarsh]

I think you are looking at this the wrong way because most altcoins aren't actually striving for mass user adoption and to build a lasting currency, they are largely just created as pump-and-dump schemes to make people money (either the devs or some traders). And the large majority of people who trade altcoins do it for profit and don't ever actually use the coin (not that you could if you wanted to for many coins anyway). I know when I was trading/mining alts I probably had over 20 different wallets over that period of time and never made any transactions other than sending coins to and from exchanges or mining pools. So alt traders make their money from people who get tricked into believing a certain altcoin was made for any other reason than to make these people money.

I've seen the altcoin scene quickly devolve since the release of Dogecoin at the end of 2013. The release of new gimmicky coins started to really pick up around that point and then went into full force in early 2014. And it is almost now 100% about creating the next pump-and-dump that will make you a profit. Kind of sad really as people trying to launch a legitimate coin, like it seems you might be trying to do, just get drowned out by all the scamcoins.

[Amph]

XST Stealthcoin is a new face in the anonymity scene

Its a piece a shit and ripoff from cloakcoin.

lol your nick

[First.Bitcoins]

I've seen the altcoin scene quickly devolve since the release of Dogecoin at the end of 2013. The release of new gimmicky coins started to really pick up around that point and then went into full force in early 2014. And it is almost now 100% about creating the next pump-and-dump that will make you a profit. Kind of sad really as people trying to launch a legitimate coin, like it seems you might be trying to do, just get drowned out by all the scamcoins.

Well said. But I think it's a matter of one's investment goals. If you want to profit from short-term trades (riding the pump & dump), or if you want to invest long-term. But those goals must be clear.

The hottest new algo may give you a chance to profit from short-term volatility, but don't kid yourself, that hyped new coin, will die in a few weeks when another technological advance replaces it. If you want to invest long-term, it's the user community, the ones who actually spend the coins that will make the difference.

[Viper1]

This thread was like a breath of fresh air frankly. +1

[okbit]

There is an old saying about success of retail stores - The secret is location, location, location!

If I may paraphrase for altcoins - It would be community, community, community!

[Nxtblg]

There is an old saying about success of retail stores - The secret is location, location, location!

If I may paraphrase for altcoins - It would be community, community, community!

Yes. Dogecoin, leaving aside its current grindingly slow bear market, did teach us that.

[meganite]

I've seen the altcoin scene quickly devolve since the release of Dogecoin at the end of 2013. The release of new gimmicky coins started to really pick up around that point and then went into full force in early 2014. And it is almost now 100% about creating the next pump-and-dump that will make you a profit. Kind of sad really as people trying to launch a legitimate coin, like it seems you might be trying to do, just get drowned out by all the scamcoins.

Well said. But I think it's a matter of one's investment goals. If you want to profit from short-term trades (riding the pump & dump), or if you want to invest long-term. But those goals must be clear.

The hottest new algo may give you a chance to profit from short-term volatility, but don't kid yourself, that hyped new coin, will die in a few weeks when another technological advance replaces it. If you want to invest long-term, it's the user community, the ones who actually spend the coins that will make the difference.

+1
It is indeed a choice, and they are almost always mutually exclusive. The times that they are, you know that you have a keeper on your hands.

[nextgencoin]

The fact is some technical developments do make a difference to the user experience and security.

Qora has decentralised trading which is planned to become anonymous so obviously you have there the possibility to trade all kinds of things including a gold, fiats, companies etc. All in a decentralised way that can't be observed or depend on completely insecure trading sites.

In a word. Technology matters.


Don't confuse the unimportance and gimmicky nature of mining algos to real developments that are going to mature cryptocurrencies to the next level. I love Bitcoin but anyone who knows much about Bitcoin knows it has some serious technological limitations that need to be solved. Qora solves these limitations.

People are right to hype a cryptocurrencies because one or a few of them are likely to go from what is a tiny tiny minuscule market to potentially global mainstream usage. The thing people get wrong however is they hype coins with technical gimmicks that no one but miners and freaks will care about later. It's all about user friendliness and function. That's why I'm so positive about Qora cause ai think the developer understands this and is quietly making what could well be the next financial revolution work.