Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[DodoB]

why every day I see the parts agreed on a 72 hours truce?

Shouldn't it last at least 72 hours?

it should least 72 hours,but is a joke.....they say oh truce for 72 hours or we won't bomb the hospitals,and after 1 hour you hear another gun shut or explosion .....some say "this is war,this things happen in war"....but this a game plan between some rich "kids" with high influence who control the world..

Too bad Hamas keeps violating evey ceasefire

[kuroman]

why every day I see the parts agreed on a 72 hours truce?

Shouldn't it last at least 72 hours?

it should least 72 hours,but is a joke.....they say oh truce for 72 hours or we won't bomb the hospitals,and after 1 hour you hear another gun shut or explosion .....some say "this is war,this things happen in war"....but this a game plan between some rich "kids" with high influence who control the world..

Too bad Hamas keeps violating evey ceasefire

I'm going to be devil advocate here, but a unilateral ceasefire, is not really a ceasefire. not like Israel didn't break if fair share of agreed ceasefire, heck even this whole massacre started by Israel

[ijphlrnxewho]

Nicaraguan President: Netanyahu Is ‘Possessed By The Devil’
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/08/05/nicaraguan-president-netanyahu-is-possessed-by-the-devil/

[Swordsoffreedom]

Nicaraguan President: Netanyahu Is ‘Possessed By The Devil’
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/08/05/nicaraguan-president-netanyahu-is-possessed-by-the-devil/

Well that's a classic one I remember when Chavez called Bush a Devil who walked the halls a few days earlier XD
But it's no secret that they do not approve of Israeli actions there.

He does argue a fair point though

Ortega also claimed that Israel was “committing genocide” in Gaza, and compared it “to the crimes of the Nazis.”

“Why doesn’t anyone condemn or sanction the state of Israel?” Ortega questioned to Globovision, adding that Netanyahu wants to “annihilate the Palestinian people.

_
As always the Washington CBS comments are super polarized
_
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Ch%C3%A1vez_speech_at_the_United_Nations

Speaking one day after Bush addressed the same session of the General Assembly, Chávez announced, "The devil came here yesterday, and it smells of sulfur still today, this table that I am now standing in front of." At that point, Chávez made the sign of the cross, positioned his hands as if praying, and looked briefly upwards as if invocation of God. He continued "Yesterday, ladies and gentlemen, from this rostrum, the President of the United States, the gentleman to whom I refer as the devil, came here, talking as if he owned the world." Chávez also said that President Bush "...came [to the General Assembly] to share his nostrums to try to preserve the current pattern of domination, exploitation and pillage of the peoples of the world." Chávez began his talk by recommending Noam Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival: "It's an excellent book to help us understand what has been happening in the world throughout the 20th century, and what's happening now, and the greatest threat looming over our planet." Citing Chomsky's book, Chávez explained, "...the American empire is doing all it can to consolidate its system of domination. And we cannot allow them to do that. We cannot allow world dictatorship to be consolidated.

[noviapriani]

Has war officially been claimed here? If not then I don't know how it could be deemed a war crime. Even of war was called it would be difficult.

War crimes don't require official declarations of war, they require conflict. In any case Israel has always had responsibilities with regards to Gaza under the Fourth Geneva Conventions.

interesting

Is this going to be another case of "guilt due to outcome" against Israel regardless of why? There have been at least 2 other school related incidents over the last few years where Hamas fired mortars from inside or near a school which resulted in return fire and kids/etc hurt. This seems to be quite a common occurrence from a leadership who hides beneath a hospital.

War crimes are war crimes regardless (to some extent) of the motivation behind them. Israel has a responsibility to minimize civilian casualties, bombing a school full of civilians doesn't do that. As far as your comment on motar fire from them:

1.) The burden of proof for that is on Israel and if you are defending the action: on you. So prove that each case involved Hamas fire from that location.

2.) Even if you can (which you can't and third party testimonies in several of these cases have indicated limited to no militant activity in the area), it could still very well be a violation of the rules of war (thus a war crime) as the perceived military payoff in military strikes has to outweigh the threat to civilian life (the threat to civilian lives in these cases being extremely high), and there is little reason to believe that such would be the case in these scenarios. Mortar fire (especially the kind we see here) generally doesn't represent just cause for the deliberate killing of civilian human shields.

Responding to live-round fire is not what I would call a war crime simply because innocents were injured.
Israel has gone WAY out of their way to drop leaflets and everything else as a means to lower civilian injury. Hamas intent is to ensure there is plenty of "innocent" people killed as a means to "win" by taking away their capabilities due to the international community being up in arms over the pictures coming across.

Then you'd be wrong legally speaking. It absolutely can be, it depends on what the response is. That doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the shelling of the schools constitutes a war crime. Or whether or not the use of flechettes or cluster munitions in urban settings does, or whether or not the targeting of civilian infrastructure like the water reservoirs and the power plant does. In short: that is a poor foundation from which to claim innocence.

[noviapriani]

Hamas intent is to ensure there is plenty of "innocent" people killed as a means to "win" by taking away their capabilities due to the international community being up in arms over the pictures coming across.

Which is also a war crime, but does not diminish the responsibilities and legal obligations that Israel has under international law.
We do, the difference is that there aren't a lot of people trying to suggest that Hamas isn't engaging in war crimes, whereas people like you seem fairly willing and indeed eager to dismiss illegal actions engaged in by Israel.

[noviapriani]

It is largely Jihadi Salafi groups firing the rockets, groups that are actually opposed to Hamas, which is why it is easier to recognize the overzealous targeting of Hamas in the campaign. the same was true of their search for and accusations surrounding the missing students which third party groups claimed responsibility for, but which Netanyahu took the opportunity to blame on Hamas instead and used it as a justification to illegally harass and target Hamas affiliates.

Easy. Because these Salafist groups are operating because of either the incompetence of Hamas, or their weakness, and because of the acquiescence or support of the civilian population.
Collective responsibility merits collective punishment. Gaza's population supported Hamas, and acquiesces to, if not outright supports the Salafists. It makes absolute sense to hold them collectively responsible for allowing terrorists to operate amongst them.

There's never been a good example of an occupying force succeeding with a population-centric counter insurgency strategy. The most successful examples of crushing insurgencies, like Sri Lanka, involved a willingness to use violence and force to achieve victory.

You're contradicting yourself here, Salafists tend to hate the Muslim Brotherhood. Claiming that the Gazan population loves both the Salafists and Hamas doesn't make any sense. It's also dumb to assume that just because a group operates within a territory that 1.) the government likes them and 2.) that the population likes them. I'm pretty sure that the people who suffer from Mayi Mayi attacks in the DRC don't do so with smiles. Nor does it make sense to bomb government forces that are aligned against them if your goal is to see them destroyed. It's pretty dumb to bomb Kinshasa and kill their soldiers while asking them why they aren't able to kill off the M23 rebels.

Collective responsibility merits collective punishment. Gaza's population supported Hamas, and acquiesces to, if not outright supports the Salafists. It makes absolute sense to hold them collectively responsible for allowing terrorists to operate amongst them.

Of course using collective punishment like that in the Congo is stupid. It would be stupid to kill civilians in Herat or other non-Pashtun regions of Afghanistan in response to the Taliban’s insurgency for the same reason. In either case, they’re far removed from the conflict and don’t really have the ability to intervene.

In contrast, the Salafists are operating amongst civilians in Gaza. The civilians aren’t making any serious attempt to stop them and in all probability, are actively aiding them. If the M23 were getting support from particular villages, then it would make sense to target those civilians. Similarly, Pashtun villages that collaborate with insurgents should be demolished by carpet bombing. Gaza’s civilians must be taught to stop supporting people who attack Israel, so it makes sense to collectively punish them.

Personally, I’d be far less restrained than the Israelis were being if insurgents in some neighboring country were firing rockets at mine.

1.) You're still contradicting yourself when it comes to then notion of dual Palestinian support for both Hamas and Salafi organizations. The two are diametrically opposed to and hate one another. Suggesting that everyone in Gaza supports both is silly because that's not the kind of relationship that the Brotherhood has with Salafis. They don't even have the same goals; Salafis are against the idea of a Palestinian state and don't support working through government mechanisms in Gaza, so claiming that they support Hamas: a political governmental organization aiming to establish a Palestinian state, is more than a bit off.

2.) The notion of collective responsibility is the same exact justification that the Al Qassam brigade uses to justify launching rockets at Israeli civilians. Congratulations, you're a supporter of terrorism.

3.) The concept of collective responsibility in Gaza doesn't even make any sense seeing as how it ignores the fact that Hamas doesn't rule there with the direct consent of the people. They weren't elected overlords of Gaza and there was no referendum on rocket attacks. They seized Gaza by force after the civil conflict with Fatah. Even outside of this, the notion of collective responsibility and thus the oking of collective punishment is not recognized as valid or legal under either international law, or Israeli law.

1) So where do these Salafists derive support from? Mars? They use civilians as human shields and derive support, or at least acquiescence, of the civilian poulation. Why not hold the civilians responsible for failing to take action against them?

2) I'm aware of that. However, the only question of importance is how to engineer the outcome you want. If the Qassam brigades shoot rockets, or other non-state actors commit acts of terrorism, it's best to throw proportionality out the window and escalate violence to a level they can't match. State actors will have that advantage against non-state ones, and really ought to take advantage of it.

3) The idea is more to deter civilians and punish them for not taking action against the terrorists operating amongst them. I'm completely aware of the fact that it's not consistent with international law, but think that's secondary to defeating this kind of radicalism.

They derive support from small cells and specific families. Trying to tie them directly to the rest of the population and then justify targeting said civilian population because of ethnic ties is dumb. It would be like saying that Syria should bomb all ethnic Russian civilians (or that the Russian government should) simply because there are ethnic Russians that engage in terrorist attacks in Russia and who are fighting jihad in Syria.

[Alphi]

Well that's a classic one I remember when Chavez called Bush a Devil who walked the halls a few days earlier XD

if you look at GW Bush's track record it wouldn't be too far from the truth.
Bush wanted to unleash fire and brimstone on gog and magog for the final showdown.. that is reportedly what he told Jacque Shirac and looking at how the people in Iraq are suffering right now from the hordes of terrorist inspired maniacs.. for them at least it would seem like Armageddon or the Apocalypse.

Electing Bush has got to be the biggest mistake the US has ever made. far bigger than going to war in Vietnam or arming and training the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan to fight a covert cold war against the USSR which turned out to have never really been a threat anyways.

as for netanyahoo look at his track record.. he holds a hammer in one hand and a noose in the other.

will netanyahoo be the biggest mistake Isreal has ever made? or will they elect someone even more right wing.

only time will tell.

[Rigon]

Hamas intent is to ensure there is plenty of "innocent" people killed as a means to "win" by taking away their capabilities due to the international community being up in arms over the pictures coming across.

Which is also a war crime, but does not diminish the responsibilities and legal obligations that Israel has under international law.
We do, the difference is that there aren't a lot of people trying to suggest that Hamas isn't engaging in war crimes, whereas people like you seem fairly willing and indeed eager to dismiss illegal actions engaged in by Israel.

I'm not dismissing anything. If Israel did indeed bomb the school simply to kill kids and UN staff then there should be an appropriate reaction to it. If it is reactionary to Hamas playing their standard game then the UN should take their resources and oust Hamas leaders. Granted, that will not happen. Sure, people seem to note it but don't give a shit what Hamas is doing.

[noviapriani]

2) I'm aware of that. However, the only question of importance is how to engineer the outcome you want. If the Qassam brigades shoot rockets, or other non-state actors commit acts of terrorism, it's best to throw proportionality out the window and escalate violence to a level they can't match. State actors will have that advantage against non-state ones, and really ought to take advantage of it.

I highly doubt that the outcome a state wants is reflected in global isolation or in a failed state status.

3) The idea is more to deter civilians and punish them for not taking action against the terrorists operating amongst them. I'm completely aware of the fact that it's not consistent with international law, but think that's secondary to defeating this kind of radicalism.

So then you believe that you should be targeted then? Afterall if you are in Moscow then you live in a country where you allow terrorist groups to exist and carry out attacks. So you must be supporting them right?

[Alphi]

Sure, people seem to note it but don't give a shit what Hamas is doing.

there is nobody defending Hamas that's why...
there are people defending Israeli war crimes so that is why people are criticizing them.

it is only deranged pro Isreal supporters who believe that the act of Defending the human rights of Palestinian and Isreali civilians is some how a Hamas or Leftist plot.

if someone came onto this forum saying some BS about Blowing themselves up or jihad Inspired killings being ok.. just watch how many people would criticize them.
but no.. as far as I have seen,  nobody has ever defended any of the Hamas war crimes on here.

[Rigon]

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. The crisis will only end when the Jews are dead or forcibly removed from Israel. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

[Alphi]

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time.  Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

surprisingly most people would agree with you, except for the part about Jews having to die or leave.. that's just nonsense.. but that is why the Zionist dream has to die and Isreal has to adopt a pluralist secular democracy which gives full rights to all people who are born and live on that land. They cant keep carving up Palestinian land and giving it to paid Jewish settlers.. and the Palestinians cant keep living like dogs on their own land only to jump the fence and bite the neighbors every few years.

[noviapriani]

We did? The only collective punishment I can recall in the Congo was Mobutu's alliance with the Hutu groups, along with stoking inter-ethnic conflict against the Banyamulenge Tutsis as a play to preserve his power. That backfired horribly when the Banyamulenge aligned with Rwanda and formed the basis of the force that tossed Mobutu out. In any case, it's a really bad example since a lot of the "collective punishment" in the Eastern Congo is just random violence by militias.

Then you don't remember the DR Congo conflict very well. All sides engaged in such tactics, including the professional armies of Mobutu himself, and the armies of Rwanda, Uganda, and Burundi, along with their direct proxies, and I can assure you that a lot of the violence from them wasn't simply "random violence" but was very targeted along ethnic lines.

[kuroman]

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. The crisis will only end when the Jews are dead or forcibly removed from Israel. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

Again this is not about Jews, Jews lived in the region and in other countries region under the Islam rule for centuries without any major issues, The problems started when the Zionist plan kicked in, and the horrible things they did, being to local population but also to Jews living outside of Israel or what was soon to be Israel at the time, by doing terrorist attacks and blowing Jew cemeteries and synagogues to push people to immigrate (this is a fact you can search it if you want) .

This fight will end, when Israelis stop colonizing Palestinians, I repeated this many times, It was Israel that started this whole event (and I don't mind listing the choronology of the events once again with factual references), because it was annoyed by the Palestinian Unity government (under US and EU conditions and blessing after it was made), that would force Israel to the negotiation table.

I don't know how can people can blame Hamas (or at least mainly exclusively), while it was Israel that started this whole massacre and still killing hundreds that are mostly civilians.

[bryant.coleman]

Isreal has to adopt a pluralist secular democracy which gives full rights to all people who are born and live on that land.

That will never happen. Because since the Arab birth rate is very high, the Jewish character of Israel will be lost within a few decades. So IMO, the choices are:

1. Two state solution (Israeli citizenship for Jews, Palestinian for Arabs)
2. One state solution (Arabs migrate to Jordan and receive Jordanian citizenship)
3. Status Quo.

[noviapriani]

So is Hamas too incompetent to stop the rockets, or does it just not care?

Is Russia too incompetent to prevent a thousand Chechens from streaming into Syria to wage Jihad or does it just not care? Should we blame Russia for the activities of Chechens in Ukraine too?

The Rwandans also have nowhere near enough power to really control the Congo in the same way the Israelis could deal with Gaza.

To the same extent as Israel in Gaza? No, but they had a large professional and well experienced army.

The Assad administration is winning, and was essentially forced to use those tactics anyway since he had no realistic alternative except surrender.

Interesting how you had to ignore the Sudan and Iraq examples.

[Alphi]

Isreal has to adopt a pluralist secular democracy which gives full rights to all people who are born and live on that land.

That will never happen. Because since the Arab birth rate is very high, the Jewish character of Israel will be lost within a few decades. So IMO, the choices are:

1. Two state solution (Israeli citizenship for Jews, Palestinian for Arabs)
2. One state solution (Arabs migrate to Jordan and receive Jordanian citizenship)
3. Status Quo.

yes america had the same mindset for a few hundred years..
"lets not give black people and latinos the vote or they might out breed us and then take over the country".
now look what happened... you have a "black" guy running the country...

is it really such a horrible thing?
of course not .. times change and attitudes change.

there are predictions that by 2050 the majority of the USA will be brown (or beige)... not because the Latinos or African Americans are out breeding the whites.. but because people just don't care about race as much as they used to so they are mixing it up..

the only people who are really worried about the USA turning brown are a few old white men and white supremacist groups...
everyone else is too busy looking in the mirror at their nice tans.

if Isreal wants to enjoy the kind of peace that most western democracies have.. they (all of them, regardless of religion or color) need to start adopting the western liberal pluralist mindset.


the bottom line is.. if you are worried about your Jewishness or your Whiteness or your Blackness being lost.. then you my friend are a racist. (not you personally but anyone who thinks that way)

[noviapriani]

Russia in Chechnya was able to use thermobaric bombs on civilian targets, shoot civilians into mass graves, and use home demolitions without any serious international repercussions.

And the Caucasus remain unstable to this day, and likewise the russian government is nowhere near able to exert as much influence in the region as the Untied States government is able to exert on every part of its country.

Saddam gassed the Kurds without any serious reactions either, so you don't necessarily need a nuclear arsenal to stop international repercussions.

You're forgetting that we used the gassing of the Kurds as justification to damage his regime from afar and then used it in part to drum up support to kill him (which we did). Once again, you seem to be living in a fantasy world where there are no internal or external reactions to mass abuses.

[Alphi]

Russia in Chechnya was able to use thermobaric bombs on civilian targets, shoot civilians into mass graves, and use home demolitions without any serious international repercussions.

And the Caucasus remain unstable to this day, and likewise the russian government is nowhere near able to exert as much influence in the region as the Untied States government is able to exert on every part of its country.

Saddam gassed the Kurds without any serious reactions either, so you don't necessarily need a nuclear arsenal to stop international repercussions.

You're forgetting that we used the gassing of the Kurds as justification to damage his regime from afar and then used it in part to drum up support to kill him (which we did). Once again, you seem to be living in a fantasy world where there are no internal or external reactions to mass abuses.

I agree... saying Russia is not criticized for helping people who commit war crimes is complete nonsense.
just look at how many countries are applying sanctions against Russia for helping rebels in Ukraine.. rebels that shot a civilian passenger plane out of the sky and killed 280 innocent people.

sanctions are far stronger than just critical words on social media.

if only they applied the same standard to Isreal and called for sanctions there.