Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[noviapriani]

Yes. Libya was stopped by France and Sudan by the USA. Not the best of examples since Sudan is also conventionally weak compared to the Israelis.

1.) Libya wasn't stopped by France, France held them off for a while but they were fine to let him have northern Chad and to have western Darfur. France was fairly cozy with Gaddafi, they wanted his oil.

2.) The US didn't stop anything in Sudan. In fact, Sudan remains one of the largest active conflict zones in the world, and Bashir's policies haven't helped him come out on top.

3.) It's interesting how you seem to think that when foreign intervention is involved then the examples shouldn't count. Unfortunately for you and your theories, that's not the way that the world works.

[kuroman]

http://www.newstalk.ie/Shocking-video-of-Israeli-soldiers-who-celebrate-shooting-18-year-old

The most moral army in the world at it again.

[noviapriani]

It only took a US invasion to do it, but hey, clear failure, right?

As someone who is supposed to be all about the outcome, I would assume that death would be nothing but a failure. Your example failed to maintain his position, thus he failed.

It's under control. Yes. There are terror threats which emerge from it to impact Russia, but beyond that, it's pretty much been crushed.

Weekly violence is hardly "under control".

[noviapriani]

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. The crisis will only end when the Jews are dead or forcibly removed from Israel. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

Hamas' use of war crimes does not justify Israel's use of war crimes.
You don't have anything to support such claims. In order to compete in the last elections Hamas had to drop its call for the destruction of Israel and campaign on a two state solution. Plus, as we see in the West Bank, The Palestinian Authority can control violence and has. There is a reason why you don't see widescale rocket attacks coming out of the West Bank.

[Rigon]

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. The crisis will only end when the Jews are dead or forcibly removed from Israel. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

Hamas' use of war crimes does not justify Israel's use of war crimes.
You don't have anything to support such claims. In order to compete in the last elections Hamas had to drop its call for the destruction of Israel and campaign on a two state solution. Plus, as we see in the West Bank, The Palestinian Authority can control violence and has. There is a reason why you don't see widescale rocket attacks coming out of the West Bank.

Never made the claim.

For the rest I really don't care any more. This will go on until Hamas has been thinned out and need to regroup and a truce will go on for a while until they decide to start back up again after they have had some more rockets snuck in. Attacks will continue regardless. Israel will continue to do their thing as well.

[noviapriani]

It's all horrific and total bullshit at the same time. The crisis will only end when the Jews are dead or forcibly removed from Israel. Creation of a Palestine state won't end persecution of the Jews nor stop attacks on Israel. Bowing to Hamas and stopping the blockade will do nothing but allow Hamas to build up their arsenal for bigger attacks.

Rinse, repeat.

Hamas' use of war crimes does not justify Israel's use of war crimes.
You don't have anything to support such claims. In order to compete in the last elections Hamas had to drop its call for the destruction of Israel and campaign on a two state solution. Plus, as we see in the West Bank, The Palestinian Authority can control violence and has. There is a reason why you don't see widescale rocket attacks coming out of the West Bank.

Never made the claim.

For the rest I really don't care any more. This will go on until Hamas has been thinned out and need to regroup and a truce will go on for a while until they decide to start back up again after they have had some more rockets snuck in. Attacks will continue regardless. Israel will continue to do their thing as well.

Or Israel could actually be a partner for peace and live up to their peace plan promises and thus marginalize Hamas politically to the point of making them irrelevant. But that will never happen since Netanyahu isn't interested in a two state solution at all and never has been.

[sana8410]

In short: deliberately killing innocent civilians, even if they are being used as human shields, may very well still be a war crime if the military threat does not outweigh the threat to said human shields.

which seems like an enormous grey area. this doesn't really seem all that well defined, especially in the cases relevant to this conflict. thats what courts are there for, i suppose.

[noviapriani]

In short: deliberately killing innocent civilians, even if they are being used as human shields, may very well still be a war crime if the military threat does not outweigh the threat to said human shields.

which seems like an enormous grey area. this doesn't really seem all that well defined, especially in the cases relevant to this conflict. thats what courts are there for, i suppose.

This is actually where the term proportional force comes into play. Do doubt that you have probably heard it thrown around (or disproportional use of force). These issues would fall under that category. If a gunman runs into a hospital full of innocent people and starts shooting a pistol at you is it appropriate to call in an airstrike and destroy the hospital? If the JEM start attacking government convoys in Darfur, is it appropriate to drop barrel bombs on Fur towns? Etc.

[Steigerz]

http://www.newstalk.ie/Shocking-video-of-Israeli-soldiers-who-celebrate-shooting-18-year-old

The most moral army in the world at it again.

Warfare against civilians must never be answered in kind. Terror must never be answered with terror. Caleb Carr

So relevant

[noviapriani]

In this case, the evidence would have to be reviewed, but even the presence of a weapons cache wouldn't make a UN school full of refugees a legitimate military target. The military value of the target relative to the risk to civilian life isn't justifiable from a legal standpoint. It is a little more subjective than other violations such as settlement expansion, but it can only really be pushed so far before it becomes a rather blatant violation.

[sana8410]

In short: deliberately killing innocent civilians, even if they are being used as human shields, may very well still be a war crime if the military threat does not outweigh the threat to said human shields.

which seems like an enormous grey area. this doesn't really seem all that well defined, especially in the cases relevant to this conflict. thats what courts are there for, i suppose.

This is actually where the term proportional force comes into play. Do doubt that you have probably heard it thrown around (or disproportional use of force). These issues would fall under that category. If a gunman runs into a hospital full of innocent people and starts shooting a pistol at you is it appropriate to call in an airstrike and destroy the hospital? If the JEM start attacking government convoys in Darfur, is it appropriate to drop barrel bombs on Fur towns? Etc.

so, e.g., Israeli intelligence shows rockets being launched within 50 meters of a hospital where civilians are being housed. Israel has to (should) weigh the following things:

(1) the harm rockets being deployed has on their own interests (including civilian interests)
(2) the probability distribution with which their weaponry will hit and/or affect targets around the area.
(3) the risk/reward profile of each point in the domain of the probability distribution.

[Rigon]

According to UN figures, around 900 of the fatalities are men.

I'll leave you to decide if they were "mostly civilians" as is claimed.

Consider three things:

1) Hamas put out an instructional video telling palestinians that every death should be described as a "civilian casualty"

2) Hamas controls everything in Gaza including the Health Ministry

3) Hamas 'clears' their dead from scenes.


After Cast Lead in 2009, they claimed 46 dead.

It was only about 6 months later that they owned up to 600-700 dead. They had lied to the media and the UN.

[sana8410]

that's why I'm saying these things are undefined. if these aren't outright subjective, they are near impossible to nail down, just because each one has about a million complex factors that goes into it, and of course you have to deal with lots of unknowns. even worse, because of that, it's easy to lie about it.

and then the risk/reward profile is also subjective. if israel for instance says, 99% chance we won't hit the hospital, that means that 1 out of every 100 times they will kill lots of civilians. what is the exact risk/reward profile that constitutes a war crime. even 99.9% means 1 out of every 1000. how many missiles has israel fired? some crazy amount.

[noviapriani]

According to UN figures, around 900 of the fatalities are men.

I'll leave you to decide if they were "mostly civilians" as is claimed.

Consider three things:

1) Hamas put out an instructional video telling palestinians that every death should be described as a "civilian casualty"

2) Hamas controls everything in Gaza including the Health Ministry

3) Hamas 'clears' their dead from scenes.


After Cast Lead in 2009, they claimed 46 dead.

It was only about 6 months later that they owned up to 600-700 dead. They had lied to the media and the UN.

It is more subjective, but in your scenario hitting the hospital is an accident. Israel has the coordinates of all such facilities (and UN schools, etc) specifically to avoid them being hit by their weapons. Israel is also perfectly capable of using precision targeting, which is why it gets a lot of flack for utilizing weapons that don't discriminate in urban settings (like cluster munitions and flechettes, or for indiscriminate shelling in said areas, like what happened in Shujayea).

[noviapriani]

Israel's capabilities implies that hitting the school if it was hit by Israel was either a case of gross negligence, or was done with the full knowledge of the IDF. Israel isn't using Qassam rockets here (their inaccuracy is one of the reason why the use of Qassam rockets is a war crime), Israel is perfectly capable of aiming.

[zolace]

According to UN figures, around 900 of the fatalities are men.

I'll leave you to decide if they were "mostly civilians" as is claimed.

Consider three things:

1) Hamas put out an instructional video telling palestinians that every death should be described as a "civilian casualty"

2) Hamas controls everything in Gaza including the Health Ministry

3) Hamas 'clears' their dead from scenes.


After Cast Lead in 2009, they claimed 46 dead.

It was only about 6 months later that they owned up to 600-700 dead. They had lied to the media and the UN.

1.) That isn't accurate

2.) Women are more likely to stay inside on a regular basis so they are caught in the open less.

3.) It isn't a crime to be a man, your attempted logic has no legal standing.

[Rigon]

According to UN figures, around 900 of the fatalities are men.

I'll leave you to decide if they were "mostly civilians" as is claimed.

Consider three things:

1) Hamas put out an instructional video telling palestinians that every death should be described as a "civilian casualty"

2) Hamas controls everything in Gaza including the Health Ministry

3) Hamas 'clears' their dead from scenes.


After Cast Lead in 2009, they claimed 46 dead.

It was only about 6 months later that they owned up to 600-700 dead. They had lied to the media and the UN.

1.) That isn't accurate

2.) Women are more likely to stay inside on a regular basis so they are caught in the open less.

3.) It isn't a crime to be a man, your attempted logic has no legal standing.

Talk to the UN. Even AlJazeera reported these figures. Sure. All 900 men were innocently going about their day. Given the points I made coupled with the fact that the IDF confirmed 400 terrorist hits about a week ago (they can name a fair few of them) it would indicate to me that the greater proportion of that 900 are combatants.

[zolace]

Armed groups can't really get away with labeling their dead fighters as civilians. That would cause said organization to collapse as every fighter wants his contribution to the struggle to be recognized.

[Rigon]

Armed groups can't really get away with labeling their dead fighters as civilians. That would cause said organization to collapse as every fighter wants his contribution to the struggle to be recognized.

Absolute rot.

Hamas has a history of hiding their dead so that it doesn't hurt morale and so that it bumps up the 'civilian' casualty numbers.

They claimed 46 dead after Cast Lead. Only admitting 600-700 some months later.

Same with Hezbollah after 2006.


--


72 hour truce announced by both sides.

Let's see if the palestinians can stick to at least one truce. They have broken every one thus far.

[Alphi]

Let's see if the palestinians can stick to at least one truce. They have broken every one thus far.

considering that there are various different militant groups and most of their leadership and communications infrastructure was bombed by Isreal at the start of the campaign..

quite frankly I am amazed that they can stop individuals from firing rockets for so long.

Isreal on the other hand.. with a well trained army and very expensive communications equipment.. has taken no damage to its command structure..
and yet they can't seem to stop their own rogue soldiers from shooting at civilians.

what many people don't seem to realise is that while all this is going on in Gaza there are almost daily attacks by IDF soldiers and settlers against civilians in the west bank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsOJVCeCV0I

the worst kind of propaganda of all is that which justifies the killing of women and children.

while all this conflict in gaza is going on and the Isreali propaganda machine is busy demonising all Palestinians for the actions of a few...
life goes on in the west bank and this is what it looks like...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA3USMfxM0g