Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[Alphi]

This isn't a question of right and wrong, it's a question of what is possible.

Right, what is possible won't change until attitudes in the US and Israel change which is exactly why it is so important to speak out about the abuses that are going on, the failings that are taking place, and yes, what is fair. Without that dialogue there would be nothing to push public opinion change. It is of vital importance to keep reiterating what SHOULD happen (with a healthy dash of pragmatism) in the hopes of one day coming close to it.

Here's the thing...you are suggesting that attitudes in the US will change while Israel can easily point to Palestinians being mindless bigots, saying things that disgust normal people worldwide. It won't happen. Neither democrats nor republicans have ANY interest in doing anything other than support Israel. That isn't going to change when Palestinians can be shown...rightly or wrongly...to act like animals. I'm using loaded rhetoric for a reason here. That is exactly how things are portrayed, and it's easy to do because of incidents like the ones I pointed out.

First, Palestinians have to be viewed as civilized before anyone important in the US will take the risk of being on their side.

yes behave like civilised americans because when innocent black teenagers get shot by police the people just calmly walk down the street in protest lolz.

its not about being civilized.. this issue is political entities in Isreal and in the USA using "terrorism" an excuse to push their own agendas.
notice how easy it was for obama to launch air strikes on ISIS.. yep coz they are real terrorists.

not so easy to attack another country just look at russia and ukraine... hence why Isreal wont let Palestine become an independent country.


that's not to say that there aren't terrorists in gaza too but Netanyahoo deliberately put a gag order on the isreali press, took a page out of George bushes book and attacked Gaza using the deaths of 3 kids as an excuse when those kids were killed in the west bank and likely not by Hamas.. Possibly even by ISIS linked operatives.

[zolace]

I have to run for today...I look forward to continuing the discussion between the pragmatist(me) and the ideologue(you).

The above isn't pragmatic. It ignores the very real impacts that dialogue has in framing the issue. Your comments that US attitudes won't change is also statistically incorrect, they have been changing over the years it just isn't close to a tipping point yet, as has the international response to such incursions. I find your "pragmatism" to be a little lopsided because it recognizes the power of Israeli PR and propaganda but completely ignores the concept of PR and propaganda from Palestinian factions and completely ignores international pressures, not only on Israel, but on the US as well. I'd also argue that it is in no way pragmatic to lump all Palestinian factions together or to ignore the evolution of insurgency and the threat of a third intifada as the Abbas administration gets further undermined by violence in Gaza. That's just an excuse to avoid talking about issues that you might not be as well versed in.

finally your final line rather ignores the entire history of modern conflict resolution. That's not the way it works so leaning on that isn't very "pragmatic".

You're suggesting my joke wasn't pragmatic? I see.

The rest, however, was. The Palestinian PR machine has been in high gear for several years now. It really hasn't gone anywhere important. Israel has kept it's PR machine at the lobbying level. They certainly have the capacity to ratchet it up whenever they desire for the American public. And let's face it, they can easily use examples like the idiot Hamas spokesperson and the Hamas charter to blow all the concepts out of proportion. This is why the Palestinians and their vitriolic language will fail. They need to decide whether to use PR or force. They are unable to use both at once because of the nature of how they drum up supporters to blow themselves up.

[sana8410]

I have to run for today...I look forward to continuing the discussion between the pragmatist(me) and the ideologue(you).

The above isn't pragmatic. It ignores the very real impacts that dialogue has in framing the issue. Your comments that US attitudes won't change is also statistically incorrect, they have been changing over the years it just isn't close to a tipping point yet, as has the international response to such incursions. I find your "pragmatism" to be a little lopsided because it recognizes the power of Israeli PR and propaganda but completely ignores the concept of PR and propaganda from Palestinian factions and completely ignores international pressures, not only on Israel, but on the US as well. I'd also argue that it is in no way pragmatic to lump all Palestinian factions together or to ignore the evolution of insurgency and the threat of a third intifada as the Abbas administration gets further undermined by violence in Gaza. That's just an excuse to avoid talking about issues that you might not be as well versed in.

finally your final line rather ignores the entire history of modern conflict resolution. That's not the way it works so leaning on that isn't very "pragmatic".

You're suggesting my joke wasn't pragmatic? I see.

The rest, however, was. The Palestinian PR machine has been in high gear for several years now. It really hasn't gone anywhere important. Israel has kept it's PR machine at the lobbying level. They certainly have the capacity to ratchet it up whenever they desire for the American public. And let's face it, they can easily use examples like the idiot Hamas spokesperson and the Hamas charter to blow all the concepts out of proportion. This is why the Palestinians and their vitriolic language will fail. They need to decide whether to use PR or force. They are unable to use both at once because of the nature of how they drum up supporters to blow themselves up.

1.) Polling data in the US over time would indicate otherwise.

2.) I agree that Hamas hurts the Palestinian PR effort greatly.

3.) Education isn't as easy to push and it takes longer / more involvement, but it can also be used to defeat propaganda. The Israeli PR machine rather depends on a largely ignorant US public.

[zolace]

You may not like what I'm saying, but I believe I'm correct, and if you ignore emotions on both sides...most particularly the fact that the Palestinians are forced to live in deplorable conditions, I think you would agree. I honestly believe I could get an agreement worked out if I were representing the Palestinians. Not something perfect, but something that would be a start in the right direction. People need to start listening to the solid business leaders in Palestine, not the politicians. Some of those guys have the right advice.

[zolace]

I have to run for today...I look forward to continuing the discussion between the pragmatist(me) and the ideologue(you).

The above isn't pragmatic. It ignores the very real impacts that dialogue has in framing the issue. Your comments that US attitudes won't change is also statistically incorrect, they have been changing over the years it just isn't close to a tipping point yet, as has the international response to such incursions. I find your "pragmatism" to be a little lopsided because it recognizes the power of Israeli PR and propaganda but completely ignores the concept of PR and propaganda from Palestinian factions and completely ignores international pressures, not only on Israel, but on the US as well. I'd also argue that it is in no way pragmatic to lump all Palestinian factions together or to ignore the evolution of insurgency and the threat of a third intifada as the Abbas administration gets further undermined by violence in Gaza. That's just an excuse to avoid talking about issues that you might not be as well versed in.

finally your final line rather ignores the entire history of modern conflict resolution. That's not the way it works so leaning on that isn't very "pragmatic".

You're suggesting my joke wasn't pragmatic? I see.

The rest, however, was. The Palestinian PR machine has been in high gear for several years now. It really hasn't gone anywhere important. Israel has kept it's PR machine at the lobbying level. They certainly have the capacity to ratchet it up whenever they desire for the American public. And let's face it, they can easily use examples like the idiot Hamas spokesperson and the Hamas charter to blow all the concepts out of proportion. This is why the Palestinians and their vitriolic language will fail. They need to decide whether to use PR or force. They are unable to use both at once because of the nature of how they drum up supporters to blow themselves up.

1.) Polling data in the US over time would indicate otherwise.

2.) I agree that Hamas hurts the Palestinian PR effort greatly.

3.) Education isn't as easy to push and it takes longer / more involvement, but it can also be used to defeat propaganda. The Israeli PR machine rather depends on a largely ignorant US public.

This one in particular is important. It should have caused a dramatic shift, and it would have except for groups like Hamas and people like Arafat. This is why it will also continue to fail.

[sana8410]

You may not like what I'm saying, but I believe I'm correct, and if you ignore emotions on both sides...most particularly the fact that the Palestinians are forced to live in deplorable conditions, I think you would agree. I honestly believe I could get an agreement worked out if I were representing the Palestinians. Not something perfect, but something that would be a start in the right direction. People need to start listening to the solid business leaders in Palestine, not the politicians. Some of those guys have the right advice.

I think that you are correct in the sense that Hamas hurts the Palestinians in PR terms (after a certain point, it was violence afterall that first made the world aware of the Israeli-Palestinian issue). I don't think that Hamas particularly cares though. That's not what they are worried about. They are acting fairly pragmatically as far as their own interests are concerned (survival).

What I disagree with you here is 1.) some of the realities on the ground in terms of the details of the conflict 2.) The usefulness of bringing them to light and openly discussing them.

[zolace]

3.) Education isn't as easy to push and it takes longer / more involvement, but it can also be used to defeat propaganda. The Israeli PR machine rather depends on a largely ignorant US public.

The problem is that the Palestinians are attempting to do exactly the same thing, then they actually come out with ridiculously stupid comments that ruin any possible gain.

[zolace]

You may not like what I'm saying, but I believe I'm correct, and if you ignore emotions on both sides...most particularly the fact that the Palestinians are forced to live in deplorable conditions, I think you would agree. I honestly believe I could get an agreement worked out if I were representing the Palestinians. Not something perfect, but something that would be a start in the right direction. People need to start listening to the solid business leaders in Palestine, not the politicians. Some of those guys have the right advice.

I think that you are correct in the sense that Hamas hurts the Palestinians in PR terms (after a certain point, it was violence afterall that first made the world aware of the Israeli-Palestinian issue). I don't think that Hamas particularly cares though. That's not what they are worried about. They are acting fairly pragmatically as far as their own interests are concerned (survival).

What I disagree with you here is 1.) some of the realities on the ground in terms of the details of the conflict 2.) The usefulness of bringing them to light and openly discussing them.

We actually agree here. The choice ends up being whether Hamas survives, or peace survives. And by saying Hamas, that's just a name. The ideology is the problem. We agree and disagree. I agree that bringing info out COULD be important, but in practice it isn't because of stupidity and violence.

[sana8410]

I honestly believe I could get an agreement worked out if I were representing the Palestinians.

This is really intriguing. How would you go about doing that (keeping all of the political pressures in mind)?

Not something perfect, but something that would be a start in the right direction. People need to start listening to the solid business leaders in Palestine, not the politicians. Some of those guys have the right advice.

Well that was tried under the Road Map to Peace Plan under Bush. Israel didn't play ball and refused to even halt settlement expansion let alone with moving forward to discuss a comprehensive deal. There isn't really any incentive for Israel to engage in any sort of peace plan that discusses borders, and every incentive for Israeli governments not to. If we're being realists here. Israel simply isn't and isn't likely to be a partner for peace given the make-up of their polity.

[zolace]

I honestly believe I could get an agreement worked out if I were representing the Palestinians.

This is really intriguing. How would you go about doing that (keeping all of the political pressures in mind)?

Not something perfect, but something that would be a start in the right direction. People need to start listening to the solid business leaders in Palestine, not the politicians. Some of those guys have the right advice.

Well that was tried under the Road Map to Peace Plan under Bush. Israel didn't play ball and refused to even halt settlement expansion let alone with moving forward to discuss a comprehensive deal. There isn't really any incentive for Israel to engage in any sort of peace plan that discusses borders, and every incentive for Israeli governments not to. If we're being realists here. Israel simply isn't and isn't likely to be a partner for peace given the make-up of their polity.

Well, I think the first problem is surviving past saying "hello". So long as the all the muscle is in the hands of the militants, of course this is impossible. They need someone like Munib al-Masri to take charge and find a way to bring in a group like the G8 ministers to talk business and peace, which is a language they all understand. And I honestly believe that that approach would defang the militants in Israel. As long as the Palestinians are looked at as genocidal and barbaric, they can't raise up from where they are. All they can hope to do is lower Israel a bit, and I don't see any value there. I think that has the best chance to get around what you said below.

[Rigon]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08...human-shields/

Israel says Hamas manual explains usage of human shields

Israel’s military says it has found a Hamas manual explaining how the militant group uses human shields to their advantage amid the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

The “Urban Warfare” manual, belonging to Hamas' armed wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, says that the group knows that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) is trying to limit civilian casualties.

“The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities,” the manual says, according to a blog post on the IDF’s website. “It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].”

Israel has repeatedly accused Hamas of launching rockets at Israel out of schools, homes and religious sites. The locations puts Gazans in danger as Israel tries to destroy the rocket launchers.

The manual adds that “presence of civilians are pockets of resistance” for Israeli troops, as they will have difficulty opening fire in their vicinity, as well as controlling them during operations and supplying medical care to civilians in need.

Hamas also states that homes and Gaza civilian facilities destroyed by Israeli airstrikes are beneficial to the group, according to the IDF.

“The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens toward the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces [i.e. Hamas]).”

[sana8410]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08...human-shields/

Israel says Hamas manual explains usage of human shields

Israel’s military says it has found a Hamas manual explaining how the militant group uses human shields to their advantage amid the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

The “Urban Warfare” manual, belonging to Hamas' armed wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, says that the group knows that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) is trying to limit civilian casualties.

“The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities,” the manual says, according to a blog post on the IDF’s website. “It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].”

Israel has repeatedly accused Hamas of launching rockets at Israel out of schools, homes and religious sites. The locations puts Gazans in danger as Israel tries to destroy the rocket launchers.

The manual adds that “presence of civilians are pockets of resistance” for Israeli troops, as they will have difficulty opening fire in their vicinity, as well as controlling them during operations and supplying medical care to civilians in need.

Hamas also states that homes and Gaza civilian facilities destroyed by Israeli airstrikes are beneficial to the group, according to the IDF.

“The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens toward the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces [i.e. Hamas]).”

And of course anything the IDF claims must be true

[Rigon]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08...human-shields/

Israel says Hamas manual explains usage of human shields

Israel’s military says it has found a Hamas manual explaining how the militant group uses human shields to their advantage amid the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

The “Urban Warfare” manual, belonging to Hamas' armed wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, says that the group knows that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) is trying to limit civilian casualties.

“The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities,” the manual says, according to a blog post on the IDF’s website. “It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].”

Israel has repeatedly accused Hamas of launching rockets at Israel out of schools, homes and religious sites. The locations puts Gazans in danger as Israel tries to destroy the rocket launchers.

The manual adds that “presence of civilians are pockets of resistance” for Israeli troops, as they will have difficulty opening fire in their vicinity, as well as controlling them during operations and supplying medical care to civilians in need.

Hamas also states that homes and Gaza civilian facilities destroyed by Israeli airstrikes are beneficial to the group, according to the IDF.

“The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens toward the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces [i.e. Hamas]).”

And of course anything the IDF claims must be true

Like I said in another thread, I am actually secular. I am saying it's only logical to conclude this is what the Orthodox belief is according to religious interpretations. It makes no sense to cheapen the miracles in religion by saying everything is spiritual and what G-d promises will not actually happen physically.

[zolace]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08...human-shields/

Israel says Hamas manual explains usage of human shields

Israel’s military says it has found a Hamas manual explaining how the militant group uses human shields to their advantage amid the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

The “Urban Warfare” manual, belonging to Hamas' armed wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, says that the group knows that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) is trying to limit civilian casualties.

“The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities,” the manual says, according to a blog post on the IDF’s website. “It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].”

Israel has repeatedly accused Hamas of launching rockets at Israel out of schools, homes and religious sites. The locations puts Gazans in danger as Israel tries to destroy the rocket launchers.

The manual adds that “presence of civilians are pockets of resistance” for Israeli troops, as they will have difficulty opening fire in their vicinity, as well as controlling them during operations and supplying medical care to civilians in need.

Hamas also states that homes and Gaza civilian facilities destroyed by Israeli airstrikes are beneficial to the group, according to the IDF.

“The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens toward the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces [i.e. Hamas]).”

And of course anything the IDF claims must be true

Equally obviously, anything Hamas says is just as much bullshit as anything the IDF says. The biggest difference is I haven't heard the IDF say that Palestinians in general are cannibals, and the IDF hasn't said they stand for the eradication of all Palestinians.

[sana8410]

I have to run for today...I look forward to continuing the discussion between the pragmatist(me) and the ideologue(you).

The above isn't pragmatic. It ignores the very real impacts that dialogue has in framing the issue. Your comments that US attitudes won't change is also statistically incorrect, they have been changing over the years it just isn't close to a tipping point yet, as has the international response to such incursions. I find your "pragmatism" to be a little lopsided because it recognizes the power of Israeli PR and propaganda but completely ignores the concept of PR and propaganda from Palestinian factions and completely ignores international pressures, not only on Israel, but on the US as well. I'd also argue that it is in no way pragmatic to lump all Palestinian factions together or to ignore the evolution of insurgency and the threat of a third intifada as the Abbas administration gets further undermined by violence in Gaza. That's just an excuse to avoid talking about issues that you might not be as well versed in.

finally your final line rather ignores the entire history of modern conflict resolution. That's not the way it works so leaning on that isn't very "pragmatic".

You're suggesting my joke wasn't pragmatic? I see.

The rest, however, was. The Palestinian PR machine has been in high gear for several years now. It really hasn't gone anywhere important. Israel has kept it's PR machine at the lobbying level. They certainly have the capacity to ratchet it up whenever they desire for the American public. And let's face it, they can easily use examples like the idiot Hamas spokesperson and the Hamas charter to blow all the concepts out of proportion. This is why the Palestinians and their vitriolic language will fail. They need to decide whether to use PR or force. They are unable to use both at once because of the nature of how they drum up supporters to blow themselves up.

1.) Polling data in the US over time would indicate otherwise.

2.) I agree that Hamas hurts the Palestinian PR effort greatly.

3.) Education isn't as easy to push and it takes longer / more involvement, but it can also be used to defeat propaganda. The Israeli PR machine rather depends on a largely ignorant US public.

This one in particular is important. It should have caused a dramatic shift, and it would have except for groups like Hamas and people like Arafat. This is why it will also continue to fail.

For the first part of the sentence: I don't think so, it has been a slow shift and hasn't reached that tipping point yet. Operation Protective Edge helps though.

For the last part: It will only fail in the absence of educational levels of the conflict. like I said, the Hamas / Arafat angles only really work as propaganda against those unfamiliar with the details of the conflict. So in that area, time is not an ally of Israel.

[zolace]

I have to run for today...I look forward to continuing the discussion between the pragmatist(me) and the ideologue(you).

The above isn't pragmatic. It ignores the very real impacts that dialogue has in framing the issue. Your comments that US attitudes won't change is also statistically incorrect, they have been changing over the years it just isn't close to a tipping point yet, as has the international response to such incursions. I find your "pragmatism" to be a little lopsided because it recognizes the power of Israeli PR and propaganda but completely ignores the concept of PR and propaganda from Palestinian factions and completely ignores international pressures, not only on Israel, but on the US as well. I'd also argue that it is in no way pragmatic to lump all Palestinian factions together or to ignore the evolution of insurgency and the threat of a third intifada as the Abbas administration gets further undermined by violence in Gaza. That's just an excuse to avoid talking about issues that you might not be as well versed in.

finally your final line rather ignores the entire history of modern conflict resolution. That's not the way it works so leaning on that isn't very "pragmatic".

You're suggesting my joke wasn't pragmatic? I see.

The rest, however, was. The Palestinian PR machine has been in high gear for several years now. It really hasn't gone anywhere important. Israel has kept it's PR machine at the lobbying level. They certainly have the capacity to ratchet it up whenever they desire for the American public. And let's face it, they can easily use examples like the idiot Hamas spokesperson and the Hamas charter to blow all the concepts out of proportion. This is why the Palestinians and their vitriolic language will fail. They need to decide whether to use PR or force. They are unable to use both at once because of the nature of how they drum up supporters to blow themselves up.

1.) Polling data in the US over time would indicate otherwise.

2.) I agree that Hamas hurts the Palestinian PR effort greatly.

3.) Education isn't as easy to push and it takes longer / more involvement, but it can also be used to defeat propaganda. The Israeli PR machine rather depends on a largely ignorant US public.

This one in particular is important. It should have caused a dramatic shift, and it would have except for groups like Hamas and people like Arafat. This is why it will also continue to fail.

For the first part of the sentence: I don't think so, it has been a slow shift and hasn't reached that tipping point yet. Operation Protective Edge helps though.

For the last part: It will only fail in the absence of educational levels of the conflict. like I said, the Hamas / Arafat angles only really work as propaganda against those unfamiliar with the details of the conflict. So in that area, time is not an ally of Israel.

The reason I disagree with this is that the level of education required to get beyond this is far too great for the American public to care enough about. People in the US tend to prefer to look at the simpler solution, and I'm not saying that particularly rudely. It's the same reason rights are being diminished slowly. The discussion of how to stop it is formidable, and most assuredly more difficult than justifying it and going along with it. I admire your optimism, but I suspect it's not going to work out well.

[sana8410]

3.) Education isn't as easy to push and it takes longer / more involvement, but it can also be used to defeat propaganda. The Israeli PR machine rather depends on a largely ignorant US public.

The problem is that the Palestinians are attempting to do exactly the same thing, then they actually come out with ridiculously stupid comments that ruin any possible gain.

Only if you can't distinguish between one Palestinian and another. Israel has the same sort of people, it's all a matter of being able to put them into context.

We actually agree here.

Agreed, though I would add conservative Israeli ideology to that list of problems.

[zolace]

3.) Education isn't as easy to push and it takes longer / more involvement, but it can also be used to defeat propaganda. The Israeli PR machine rather depends on a largely ignorant US public.

The problem is that the Palestinians are attempting to do exactly the same thing, then they actually come out with ridiculously stupid comments that ruin any possible gain.

Only if you can't distinguish between one Palestinian and another. Israel has the same sort of people, it's all a matter of being able to put them into context.

We actually agree here.

Agreed, though I would add conservative Israeli ideology to that list of problems.

You're asking for significant understanding of another country's internal politics. I have my doubts. I had my quota of Fox last night, and it actually showed that sort of Israeli, but it was just some woman. The politicians that say stuff like that aren't getting called on it within the US, which essentially means it doesn't change US opinions.

[sana8410]

I honestly believe I could get an agreement worked out if I were representing the Palestinians.

This is really intriguing. How would you go about doing that (keeping all of the political pressures in mind)?

Not something perfect, but something that would be a start in the right direction. People need to start listening to the solid business leaders in Palestine, not the politicians. Some of those guys have the right advice.

Well that was tried under the Road Map to Peace Plan under Bush. Israel didn't play ball and refused to even halt settlement expansion let alone with moving forward to discuss a comprehensive deal. There isn't really any incentive for Israel to engage in any sort of peace plan that discusses borders, and every incentive for Israeli governments not to. If we're being realists here. Israel simply isn't and isn't likely to be a partner for peace given the make-up of their polity.

Well, I think the first problem is surviving past saying "hello". So long as the all the muscle is in the hands of the militants, of course this is impossible. They need someone like Munib al-Masri to take charge and find a way to bring in a group like the G8 ministers to talk business and peace, which is a language they all understand. And I honestly believe that that approach would defang the militants in Israel. As long as the Palestinians are looked at as genocidal and barbaric, they can't raise up from where they are. All they can hope to do is lower Israel a bit, and I don't see any value there. I think that has the best chance to get around what you said below.

I don't really see how this is 'pragmatic' given the history of the peace process. 2013 saw both the lowest level of rocket attacks on Israel ever recorded since the Gaza takeover and absolutely no progress in the area of peace talks. Likewise, peacetalks, and no progress prior to Hamas' takeover of Gaza and their subsequent use of mass rocket attacks. Both would seem to contradict your assertion that this would defang Israeli conservatives.
Side note: G7 now

[zolace]

Agreed, though I would add conservative Israeli ideology to that list of problems.

To be honest, we could have a great conversation about how Israel adds to the problems, but that isn't really effective. Israel is happy with the status quo, at least much more so than the Palestinians.