Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[umair127]

As far as the OP goes though; Hamas and other Palestinian Gaza factions have announced a ceasefire. We'll see what Israel has to say about it. In either case it depends on talks that will take place in a month on prisoner releases and a port construction and I doubt they will go well.

The ceasefire looks like a complete cessation of hostiles
At least for now the war is over and can be considered finished but what goes on in the shadows and who creates the next hotspot or triggers the next event is uncertain, but at least their is a return of an unsteady peace in the Palestine.

The deal depends on good faith negotiations concerning the release of prisoners and coastal access which there is little precedence of Israel ever honestly engaging in (not without very heavy US pressure and even then only in limited terms). That may or may not be a deal breaker to the point of initiating rocket attacks (it usually isn't right away). Hamas will likely NOT be the first to fire rockets, that would likely be third party Palestinian militant factions (as per usual) which I suppose is the same thing since it all gets blamed on Hamas anyway. In fact, Israel rarely keeps ceasefire agreements very long outside of military action clauses. It knows that in terms of PR people only care about physical attack conditionals as they relate to ceasefires, not to the actual letter of the actual ceasefires as they relate to say, the fishing restrictions, or the opening of crossings.

Well for Hamas they need time to find funding for more rockets and to re-arm themselves.
For Israel well they got the bloodbath they wanted and left Hamas from their perspective in a much weaker position politically and militarily as they still hold all the cards, destroyed their tunnel system and bombed the crap out of their buildings while portraying them as terrorists to the mass media.

After the already damaged infrastructure got destroyed, Hamas and the Palestinians will also need to rebuild and restore the buildings that were obliterated in their latest spat, so they could both use the ceasefire.

That said between those two countries they are always at a boiling point so while this one may be silent for now its only a matter of time before it'll get hot again since its ongoing like it did a few years ago and will again a few years from now.

_
Hamas, though badly battered, remains in control of Gaza with part of its military arsenal intact. Israel and Egypt will continue to control access to blockaded Gaza, despite Hamas’ long-running demand that the border closures imposed in 2007 be lifted.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-hamas-says-longterm-truce-agreed-with-israel-9691910.html

We also have to keep in mind that Hamas only has so much control over third party militant groups. It isn't a federal government, it is more of a confederacy here with Hamas just being the strongest and primary service provider of the strip. So when things get bad due to the blockade and other issues, Hamas ability to reign in these groups weakens. You mentioned the Qassam Brigade, but that is just the group that Hamas has the MOST control over because it is actually headed by Hamas, whereas the others are not.

They don't actually need control, they just need to condemn it. It may be a bit late for Hamas, though. I don't think he could do worse. And if done properly, it could work quite well. Surviving the change would be pretty difficult, of course.
Unfortunately, saying this doesn't really accomplish much. And it's a horrible way to start negotiating any reduction in violence.

[sana8410]

Which is why I circle back to saying a strong business leader is probably the best solution at this point. They need to categorically separate themselves from any military action in a very public way, then make the easy case for the financial oppression Israel is carrying out. Of course, that person would probably be executed by some group with links to Hamas. Probably call him a traitor like those people they executed a few days ago.

Palestinians are their own worst enemy, and they just don't get it.

A strong business leader would do nothing to help the situation in Gaza. He or she would face the exact same problems. There is nothing that can change Gaza until either Israeli policy changes, or progress is made in the West Bank (or Hamas is destroyed, but that is highly unlikely). I suppose an occupation of Gaza would work too.

[Swordsoffreedom]

We also have to keep in mind that Hamas only has so much control over third party militant groups. It isn't a federal government, it is more of a confederacy here with Hamas just being the strongest and primary service provider of the strip. So when things get bad due to the blockade and other issues, Hamas ability to reign in these groups weakens. You mentioned the Qassam Brigade, but that is just the group that Hamas has the MOST control over because it is actually headed by Hamas, whereas the others are not.

The Qassam brigade is new to me actually since I didn't bring it up sana unless you were referring to umair
But it did get me thinking if they are acting like a confederacy then its similar to Libya when Gadaffi was still around with different tribal groups vying for power and Gadaffi being the centerfold keeping the house in check and maintaining the order.
Take away the balancing force and you end up with chaos and a shitfest in the literal sense since what came out of that bag in Iraq was ISIS that then went to Syria as well ^^.
Like removing the spyware and ending up with a Trojan horse instead

Knowing history and how it likes to repeat itself if Israel ever gets rid of Hamas something more sinister might pop up in its place killing any moderate elements with just the extreme end ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Name_and_name_changes

As for a business leader
Well first they need to build the economy but that's hard to do under effective boycott unless they try various things like urban gardens cheap internal ways to build the economic capital of the place.

[sana8410]

They need to categorically separate themselves from any military action in a very public way, then make the easy case for the financial oppression Israel is carrying out.

Palestinians are their own worst enemy, and they just don't get it.

I disagree. What Israel is doing is inexcusable. And here you keep treating them as one group. They aren't. Hamas is self interested. No surprise there. We can either accept that reality and move forward with talks realizing this or we can never have peace. So far Israel has opted for the latter.

[umair127]

They need to categorically separate themselves from any military action in a very public way, then make the easy case for the financial oppression Israel is carrying out.

Palestinians are their own worst enemy, and they just don't get it.

I disagree. What Israel is doing is inexcusable. And here you keep treating them as one group. They aren't. Hamas is self interested. No surprise there. We can either accept that reality and move forward with talks realizing this or we can never have peace. So far Israel has opted for the latter.

To this I would respond that you should check around for what various people interviewed in Gaza had to say about the public executions. They make my case. Obviously there are many differences within any group. But on this, they are the victims of their upbringing...including schools and culture. They say the wrong things. Israelis do the same things, but media generally makes the Israelis who are into the violence look like the rare loon.

[Nawaytes]

everybody heard about this 
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28252155
come on guys, the fighting is over. peace is better than anything.

[sana8410]

Israel is trolling the Palestinians by goading them into a violent, albeit pointless response, then sitting back and saying "see, they're all terrorists". The violent response is unbelievably stupid and can't win. They are simply massively outgunned.

Right, but they goad them by blatantly violating the terms of the ceasefire and threatening to destroy them anyway by doing so. Hamas as two options in that case: 1.) Disappear 2.) Launch rockets and fight in the hopes of forcing a reprieve through new ceasefire terms and international attention.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/22/342318...-israeli-teens
A third option is to condemn all violence. Israel cannot really go all offensive if they have no cover of rocket fire or kidnappings or whatever to make it look good.

So a couple of things here:

1.) Hamas has tried peace via a ceasefire in which it did a good job at controlling third party groups. It simply didn't pay off for Hamas which saw its fishing rights cut during this time (in violation of the 2012 ceasefire deal), and Gaza crossings routinely closed (also in violation of the 2012 ceasefire deal). The fighting here was a direct result of the failure of the peace process with Hamas and a failure to live up to ceasefire obligations by Netanyahu's Administration (and due to the Sisi takeover of Egypt). You want them to condemn all violence? Fine I'd honestly like that too, but what would it get them? Where is the evidence that it would in any way improve situations in Gaza or for the Palestinians?

2.) Abbas has tried this exact tract in the West Bank only to be met with a failure by Israel to live up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises, a slow death of Palestinian statehood through settlement expansion, and political unrest as Abbas and his allies are labeled puppets of Israel or at the very least complicit in the face of ongoing Israeli abuse, discrimination, and violence. Israel has demonstrated quite visibly in the West Bank that condemning violence doesn't net Palestinians anything other than fewer bombs being dropped on them. They have provided little incentive for peace.

To be perfectly straightforward, it was this violence that has led Israel to a ceasefire that actually addressed some of Gaza's grievances. So as distasteful and immoral as we both find it; the simple fact is that it worked. Israel has created a situation where the only paths that pay dividends are ones of violence.

[sana8410]

As far as the OP goes though; Hamas and other Palestinian Gaza factions have announced a ceasefire. We'll see what Israel has to say about it. In either case it depends on talks that will take place in a month on prisoner releases and a port construction and I doubt they will go well.

The ceasefire looks like a complete cessation of hostiles
At least for now the war is over and can be considered finished but what goes on in the shadows and who creates the next hotspot or triggers the next event is uncertain, but at least their is a return of an unsteady peace in the Palestine.

The deal depends on good faith negotiations concerning the release of prisoners and coastal access which there is little precedence of Israel ever honestly engaging in (not without very heavy US pressure and even then only in limited terms). That may or may not be a deal breaker to the point of initiating rocket attacks (it usually isn't right away). Hamas will likely NOT be the first to fire rockets, that would likely be third party Palestinian militant factions (as per usual) which I suppose is the same thing since it all gets blamed on Hamas anyway. In fact, Israel rarely keeps ceasefire agreements very long outside of military action clauses. It knows that in terms of PR people only care about physical attack conditionals as they relate to ceasefires, not to the actual letter of the actual ceasefires as they relate to say, the fishing restrictions, or the opening of crossings.

Well for Hamas they need time to find funding for more rockets and to re-arm themselves.
For Israel well they got the bloodbath they wanted and left Hamas from their perspective in a much weaker position politically and militarily as they still hold all the cards, destroyed their tunnel system and bombed the crap out of their buildings while portraying them as terrorists to the mass media.

After the already damaged infrastructure got destroyed, Hamas and the Palestinians will also need to rebuild and restore the buildings that were obliterated in their latest spat, so they could both use the ceasefire.

That said between those two countries they are always at a boiling point so while this one may be silent for now its only a matter of time before it'll get hot again since its ongoing like it did a few years ago and will again a few years from now.

_
Hamas, though badly battered, remains in control of Gaza with part of its military arsenal intact. Israel and Egypt will continue to control access to blockaded Gaza, despite Hamas’ long-running demand that the border closures imposed in 2007 be lifted.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-hamas-says-longterm-truce-agreed-with-israel-9691910.html

We also have to keep in mind that Hamas only has so much control over third party militant groups. It isn't a federal government, it is more of a confederacy here with Hamas just being the strongest and primary service provider of the strip. So when things get bad due to the blockade and other issues, Hamas ability to reign in these groups weakens. You mentioned the Qassam Brigade, but that is just the group that Hamas has the MOST control over because it is actually headed by Hamas, whereas the others are not.

They don't actually need control, they just need to condemn it. It may be a bit late for Hamas, though. I don't think he could do worse. And if done properly, it could work quite well. Surviving the change would be pretty difficult, of course.
Unfortunately, saying this doesn't really accomplish much. And it's a horrible way to start negotiating any reduction in violence.

They have in the past, they've also launched military operations against some of these groups (like when the BBC journalist was rescued by Hamas). That hardly seems to matter though.

[sana8410]

They need to categorically separate themselves from any military action in a very public way, then make the easy case for the financial oppression Israel is carrying out.

Palestinians are their own worst enemy, and they just don't get it.

I disagree. What Israel is doing is inexcusable. And here you keep treating them as one group. They aren't. Hamas is self interested. No surprise there. We can either accept that reality and move forward with talks realizing this or we can never have peace. So far Israel has opted for the latter.

To this I would respond that you should check around for what various people interviewed in Gaza had to say about the public executions. They make my case. Obviously there are many differences within any group. But on this, they are the victims of their upbringing...including schools and culture. They say the wrong things. Israelis do the same things, but media generally makes the Israelis who are into the violence look like the rare loon.

I say it wouldn't work because I honestly don't see how it could. Before we were talking about a business leader in charge of the PA, here you are advocating one in Gaza. That wouldn't change anything in Gaza, how could it? It wouldn't change the farming and fishing crisis, the crisis of medical supplies, fuel, or cash, the salinity and water crisis, it wouldn't end the blockade. I'm not sure how you would see such a leader in Gaza as making a big difference. Israel has been pretty consistent in its treatment of Gaza regardless of how peaceful or violent Hamas acts.

[sana8410]

I don't think he could do worse. And if done properly, it could work quite well. Surviving the change would be pretty difficult, of course.

I have, but I also base my opinions on more than anecdotal evidence.

The current ceasefire has the same conditionals and elements in it (and then some more on top of them) that Israel never fully implemented in the 2012 ceasefire despite a halt to rocket attacks. With the pressure that Netanyahu is getting from conservatives, I can't see Israel living up to this ceasefire which is likely way over ambitious, especially when it comes to the mandated later talks and dependency on a second round of successful negotiations.

[sana8410]

As far as the NPR link goes, after reading it here I see that the source is Saleh al-Arouri; which would mean that the attack did not stem from Hamas leadership in Gaza, but rather more likely through an exile chain operating independently in the West Bank and directed from Turkey (where he lives).

But even here there isn't evidence of it being directed even from Turkey. All he said in his statement was that Al Qassam Brigade members carried it out, which we already knew, it was merely determined that they were operating alone and not under the direction of Hamas (by the Israeli police chief of the area and by independent analysts). While this douche bag is praising them, he did not actually state that he or Hamas in Gaza ordered the attack. Which of course makes the NPR headline a bit misleading.

[kuroman]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...-Israel-371952

And this is why I believe Hamas is going to continue to look like mindless killers to the US. Some of them are mindless killers; the question is why. Disliking Hamas shouldn't blind people to everything else. I know it can, but only because people want to be small.

I don't get your point in relation to the article posted, can you elaborate some more please ?

I think i said it all by calling Hamas mindless killers,they just kill,even their own people,they have no strategy ..........

I don't think that Hamas are mindless killers, some of their members might be, and some of the extremist might riding the the resistance cause, and off course that goes without saying that targeting innocent civilians is a terrorist act and should be condemned, but some of their actions can be understood if you check the suffering of the Palestinians, and you should know that Hamas members are from Palestinians civilians, and probably had lost a member of their familly or a close person.

Trough history, every country or population that was occupied had within it an armed group, even Jews in the Warsaw ghetto and other locations resorted, at least partially, to similar strategies that are used right now by Hamas such as the tunnels and co. But I guess it is easy for Israel and it allies to call anything, everything and anyone that would wants to fight the occupation as terrorist.

The funny part is that Hamas was an Israeli creation to offset Fatah and create not only a physical separation between Gaza and the West Bank but also a political and even an armed one, which kind of worked till the beginning of June, when Hamas and the PLO decided to form the unity government following the US and EU orders and advise, a move that was applauded by these same instances when it was made and which Israel really feared because it was to push them to negotiation table, hence they started this whole event.

[DodoB]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...-Israel-371952

And this is why I believe Hamas is going to continue to look like mindless killers to the US. Some of them are mindless killers; the question is why. Disliking Hamas shouldn't blind people to everything else. I know it can, but only because people want to be small.

I don't get your point in relation to the article posted, can you elaborate some more please ?

I think i said it all by calling Hamas mindless killers,they just kill,even their own people,they have no strategy ..........

I don't think that Hamas are mindless killers, some of their members might be, and some of the extremist might riding the the resistance cause, and off course that goes without saying that targeting innocent civilians is a terrorist act and should be condemned, but some of their actions can be understood if you check the suffering of the Palestinians, and you should know that Hamas members are from Palestinians civilians, and probably had lost a member of their familly or a close person.

Trough history, every country or population that was occupied had within it an armed group, even Jews in the Warsaw ghetto and other locations resorted, at least partially, to similar strategies that are used right now by Hamas such as the tunnels and co. But I guess it is easy for Israel and it allies to call anything, everything and anyone that would wants to fight the occupation as terrorist.

The funny part is that Hamas was an Israeli creation to offset Fatah and create not only a physical separation between Gaza and the West Bank but also a political and even an armed one, which kind of worked till the beginning of June, when Hamas and the PLO decided to form the unity government following the US and EU orders and advise, a move that was applauded by these same instances when it was made and which Israel really feared because it was to push them to negotiation table, hence they started this whole event.

Hamas' way of fighting the "occupation" is a terror way,the inflict terror on civilians in both sides to achieve their goals. that's why they are called a terror organization.

[hdbuck]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...-Israel-371952

And this is why I believe Hamas is going to continue to look like mindless killers to the US. Some of them are mindless killers; the question is why. Disliking Hamas shouldn't blind people to everything else. I know it can, but only because people want to be small.

I don't get your point in relation to the article posted, can you elaborate some more please ?

I think i said it all by calling Hamas mindless killers,they just kill,even their own people,they have no strategy ..........

I don't think that Hamas are mindless killers, some of their members might be, and some of the extremist might riding the the resistance cause, and off course that goes without saying that targeting innocent civilians is a terrorist act and should be condemned, but some of their actions can be understood if you check the suffering of the Palestinians, and you should know that Hamas members are from Palestinians civilians, and probably had lost a member of their familly or a close person.

Trough history, every country or population that was occupied had within it an armed group, even Jews in the Warsaw ghetto and other locations resorted, at least partially, to similar strategies that are used right now by Hamas such as the tunnels and co. But I guess it is easy for Israel and it allies to call anything, everything and anyone that would wants to fight the occupation as terrorist.

The funny part is that Hamas was an Israeli creation to offset Fatah and create not only a physical separation between Gaza and the West Bank but also a political and even an armed one, which kind of worked till the beginning of June, when Hamas and the PLO decided to form the unity government following the US and EU orders and advise, a move that was applauded by these same instances when it was made and which Israel really feared because it was to push them to negotiation table, hence they started this whole event.

Hamas' way of fighting the "occupation" is a terror way,the inflict terror on civilians in both sides to achieve their goals. that's why they are called a terror organization.

you should repeat the word 'terror' even more. 

[umair127]

Israel is trolling the Palestinians by goading them into a violent, albeit pointless response, then sitting back and saying "see, they're all terrorists". The violent response is unbelievably stupid and can't win. They are simply massively outgunned.

Right, but they goad them by blatantly violating the terms of the ceasefire and threatening to destroy them anyway by doing so. Hamas as two options in that case: 1.) Disappear 2.) Launch rockets and fight in the hopes of forcing a reprieve through new ceasefire terms and international attention.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/22/342318...-israeli-teens
A third option is to condemn all violence. Israel cannot really go all offensive if they have no cover of rocket fire or kidnappings or whatever to make it look good.

So a couple of things here:

1.) Hamas has tried peace via a ceasefire in which it did a good job at controlling third party groups. It simply didn't pay off for Hamas which saw its fishing rights cut during this time (in violation of the 2012 ceasefire deal), and Gaza crossings routinely closed (also in violation of the 2012 ceasefire deal). The fighting here was a direct result of the failure of the peace process with Hamas and a failure to live up to ceasefire obligations by Netanyahu's Administration (and due to the Sisi takeover of Egypt). You want them to condemn all violence? Fine I'd honestly like that too, but what would it get them? Where is the evidence that it would in any way improve situations in Gaza or for the Palestinians?

2.) Abbas has tried this exact tract in the West Bank only to be met with a failure by Israel to live up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises, a slow death of Palestinian statehood through settlement expansion, and political unrest as Abbas and his allies are labeled puppets of Israel or at the very least complicit in the face of ongoing Israeli abuse, discrimination, and violence. Israel has demonstrated quite visibly in the West Bank that condemning violence doesn't net Palestinians anything other than fewer bombs being dropped on them. They have provided little incentive for peace.

To be perfectly straightforward, it was this violence that has led Israel to a ceasefire that actually addressed some of Gaza's grievances. So as distasteful and immoral as we both find it; the simple fact is that it worked. Israel has created a situation where the only paths that pay dividends are ones of violence.

I disagree totally. A couple of years isn't going to resolve anything. That kind of short term thinking will lead them to where they are. As long as the violence continues, and is effectively started by Hamas, then Israel continues to win.

[sana8410]

Israel is trolling the Palestinians by goading them into a violent, albeit pointless response, then sitting back and saying "see, they're all terrorists". The violent response is unbelievably stupid and can't win. They are simply massively outgunned.

Right, but they goad them by blatantly violating the terms of the ceasefire and threatening to destroy them anyway by doing so. Hamas as two options in that case: 1.) Disappear 2.) Launch rockets and fight in the hopes of forcing a reprieve through new ceasefire terms and international attention.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/22/342318...-israeli-teens
A third option is to condemn all violence. Israel cannot really go all offensive if they have no cover of rocket fire or kidnappings or whatever to make it look good.

So a couple of things here:

1.) Hamas has tried peace via a ceasefire in which it did a good job at controlling third party groups. It simply didn't pay off for Hamas which saw its fishing rights cut during this time (in violation of the 2012 ceasefire deal), and Gaza crossings routinely closed (also in violation of the 2012 ceasefire deal). The fighting here was a direct result of the failure of the peace process with Hamas and a failure to live up to ceasefire obligations by Netanyahu's Administration (and due to the Sisi takeover of Egypt). You want them to condemn all violence? Fine I'd honestly like that too, but what would it get them? Where is the evidence that it would in any way improve situations in Gaza or for the Palestinians?

2.) Abbas has tried this exact tract in the West Bank only to be met with a failure by Israel to live up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises, a slow death of Palestinian statehood through settlement expansion, and political unrest as Abbas and his allies are labeled puppets of Israel or at the very least complicit in the face of ongoing Israeli abuse, discrimination, and violence. Israel has demonstrated quite visibly in the West Bank that condemning violence doesn't net Palestinians anything other than fewer bombs being dropped on them. They have provided little incentive for peace.

To be perfectly straightforward, it was this violence that has led Israel to a ceasefire that actually addressed some of Gaza's grievances. So as distasteful and immoral as we both find it; the simple fact is that it worked. Israel has created a situation where the only paths that pay dividends are ones of violence.

I disagree totally. A couple of years isn't going to resolve anything. That kind of short term thinking will lead them to where they are. As long as the violence continues, and is effectively started by Hamas, then Israel continues to win.

You didn't address the main question here: what incentives have Israel created for peace? We've seen years of it in the West Bank and years of a fully cooperative Palestinian governmental authority that denounces violence and recognizes Israel's right to exist and in the face of all of that absolutely zero gains by Palestinians in the West Bank in the area of West Bank specific issues such as settlement expansion.

Where are the incentives? You can disagree but your counter argument isn't very fleshed out here in terms of addressing my points.

[umair127]

They need to categorically separate themselves from any military action in a very public way, then make the easy case for the financial oppression Israel is carrying out.

Palestinians are their own worst enemy, and they just don't get it.

I disagree. What Israel is doing is inexcusable. And here you keep treating them as one group. They aren't. Hamas is self interested. No surprise there. We can either accept that reality and move forward with talks realizing this or we can never have peace. So far Israel has opted for the latter.

To this I would respond that you should check around for what various people interviewed in Gaza had to say about the public executions. They make my case. Obviously there are many differences within any group. But on this, they are the victims of their upbringing...including schools and culture. They say the wrong things. Israelis do the same things, but media generally makes the Israelis who are into the violence look like the rare loon.

I say it wouldn't work because I honestly don't see how it could. Before we were talking about a business leader in charge of the PA, here you are advocating one in Gaza. That wouldn't change anything in Gaza, how could it? It wouldn't change the farming and fishing crisis, the crisis of medical supplies, fuel, or cash, the salinity and water crisis, it wouldn't end the blockade. I'm not sure how you would see such a leader in Gaza as making a big difference. Israel has been pretty consistent in its treatment of Gaza regardless of how peaceful or violent Hamas acts.

Lack of consistency will always fail. I was speaking of the PA. Gaza itself is pretty much a walking morgue at this point. But had they taken a somewhat different path, there would have been a much better path.

[sana8410]

They need to categorically separate themselves from any military action in a very public way, then make the easy case for the financial oppression Israel is carrying out.

Palestinians are their own worst enemy, and they just don't get it.

I disagree. What Israel is doing is inexcusable. And here you keep treating them as one group. They aren't. Hamas is self interested. No surprise there. We can either accept that reality and move forward with talks realizing this or we can never have peace. So far Israel has opted for the latter.

To this I would respond that you should check around for what various people interviewed in Gaza had to say about the public executions. They make my case. Obviously there are many differences within any group. But on this, they are the victims of their upbringing...including schools and culture. They say the wrong things. Israelis do the same things, but media generally makes the Israelis who are into the violence look like the rare loon.

I say it wouldn't work because I honestly don't see how it could. Before we were talking about a business leader in charge of the PA, here you are advocating one in Gaza. That wouldn't change anything in Gaza, how could it? It wouldn't change the farming and fishing crisis, the crisis of medical supplies, fuel, or cash, the salinity and water crisis, it wouldn't end the blockade. I'm not sure how you would see such a leader in Gaza as making a big difference. Israel has been pretty consistent in its treatment of Gaza regardless of how peaceful or violent Hamas acts.

Lack of consistency will always fail. I was speaking of the PA. Gaza itself is pretty much a walking morgue at this point. But had they taken a somewhat different path, there would have been a much better path.

The point is that even when Hamas adheres to ceasefire conditions and brings violence to a standstill they still have not seen any progress in having general grievances addressed. Once again, where is the incentive? You are asking them to sit quietly while Israel suffocates them and the Gazan population. I doubt that most of us would do as much. Israel has certainly started wars over far less.

I was speaking of the PA. Gaza itself is pretty much a walking morgue at this point. But had they taken a somewhat different path, there would have been a much better path.

Unfortunately there is no evidence of this.

[umair127]

I don't think he could do worse. And if done properly, it could work quite well. Surviving the change would be pretty difficult, of course.

I have, but I also base my opinions on more than anecdotal evidence.

The current ceasefire has the same conditionals and elements in it (and then some more on top of them) that Israel never fully implemented in the 2012 ceasefire despite a halt to rocket attacks. With the pressure that Netanyahu is getting from conservatives, I can't see Israel living up to this ceasefire which is likely way over ambitious, especially when it comes to the mandated later talks and dependency on a second round of successful negotiations.

Anecdotal evidence? We're discussing changing the American mindset, and you're saying people shouldn't trust what people on the streets of the place in question are saying/thinking because it's anecdotal evidence?

I don't believe you thought that through. "Are you going to believe all this theory, or your lying eyes?" Or in this case, ears.

[sana8410]

I don't think he could do worse. And if done properly, it could work quite well. Surviving the change would be pretty difficult, of course.

I have, but I also base my opinions on more than anecdotal evidence.

The current ceasefire has the same conditionals and elements in it (and then some more on top of them) that Israel never fully implemented in the 2012 ceasefire despite a halt to rocket attacks. With the pressure that Netanyahu is getting from conservatives, I can't see Israel living up to this ceasefire which is likely way over ambitious, especially when it comes to the mandated later talks and dependency on a second round of successful negotiations.

Anecdotal evidence? We're discussing changing the American mindset, and you're saying people shouldn't trust what people on the streets of the place in question are saying/thinking because it's anecdotal evidence?

I don't believe you thought that through. "Are you going to believe all this theory, or your lying eyes?" Or in this case, ears.

I'm saying that your couple of personal sources or youtube videos are anecdotal evidence. If you really want to understand general attitudes in a more robust fashion then you need solid polling data which has been available and some of which has been posted in this thread.

Paying attention to comments in the street is vital, but you need to be able to support the conclusions you draw from that with more than that.