Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[sana8410]

I don't believe you thought that through. "Are you going to believe all this theory, or your lying eyes?" Or in this case, ears.

I'll give an example then: I speak to a lot of Nigerians concerning Boko Haram, they tell me all about how it is a CIA plot to discredit Islam and keep Goodluck Johnathan and southerners in power after the 2015 elections. Now I could just listen to people on the street here and there, or I could file that away, look at larger attitudes through a more rigorous polling methodology, see how they compare, and examine intelligence reports as well as well as my own background knowledge of the situation.

[umair127]

As far as the NPR link goes, after reading it here I see that the source is Saleh al-Arouri; which would mean that the attack did not stem from Hamas leadership in Gaza, but rather more likely through an exile chain operating independently in the West Bank and directed from Turkey (where he lives).

But even here there isn't evidence of it being directed even from Turkey. All he said in his statement was that Al Qassam Brigade members carried it out, which we already knew, it was merely determined that they were operating alone and not under the direction of Hamas (by the Israeli police chief of the area and by independent analysts). While this douche bag is praising them, he did not actually state that he or Hamas in Gaza ordered the attack. Which of course makes the NPR headline a bit misleading.

Who corrected it? Hamas? Nope.And that's the problem.

[sana8410]

Talking to people is fine, but if I simply went with whatever on the ground sources told me all of the time I'd believe that 9/11 was conducted by Jews and that the IS is on the payroll of the CIA.

By relying so heavily on what you hear through a couple of people you are basing your understanding of things on a very limited and incomplete picture that is likely not representative of wider attitudes / issues.

[sana8410]

As far as the NPR link goes, after reading it here I see that the source is Saleh al-Arouri; which would mean that the attack did not stem from Hamas leadership in Gaza, but rather more likely through an exile chain operating independently in the West Bank and directed from Turkey (where he lives).

But even here there isn't evidence of it being directed even from Turkey. All he said in his statement was that Al Qassam Brigade members carried it out, which we already knew, it was merely determined that they were operating alone and not under the direction of Hamas (by the Israeli police chief of the area and by independent analysts). While this douche bag is praising them, he did not actually state that he or Hamas in Gaza ordered the attack. Which of course makes the NPR headline a bit misleading.

Who corrected it? Hamas? Nope.And that's the problem.

Corrected it? Hamas denied that it carried the attack out from the start. Or do you mean who solved the situation by rescuing the students? That question would seem to imply that you think that Gaza's operational headquarters in Gaza have operational control of the West Bank branch of the attackers or even of the larger West Bank Qassam Brigade branch.

[umair127]

As far as the NPR link goes, after reading it here I see that the source is Saleh al-Arouri; which would mean that the attack did not stem from Hamas leadership in Gaza, but rather more likely through an exile chain operating independently in the West Bank and directed from Turkey (where he lives).

But even here there isn't evidence of it being directed even from Turkey. All he said in his statement was that Al Qassam Brigade members carried it out, which we already knew, it was merely determined that they were operating alone and not under the direction of Hamas (by the Israeli police chief of the area and by independent analysts). While this douche bag is praising them, he did not actually state that he or Hamas in Gaza ordered the attack. Which of course makes the NPR headline a bit misleading.

Who corrected it? Hamas? Nope.And that's the problem.

Corrected it? Hamas denied that it carried the attack out from the start. Or do you mean who solved the situation by rescuing the students? That question would seem to imply that you think that Gaza's operational headquarters in Gaza have operational control of the West Bank branch of the attackers or even of the larger West Bank Qassam Brigade branch.

It doesn't matter in the least what either one of us thinks. Perception is key, and American perception remains the same or worse.

[umair127]

Israel is trolling the Palestinians by goading them into a violent, albeit pointless response, then sitting back and saying "see, they're all terrorists". The violent response is unbelievably stupid and can't win. They are simply massively outgunned.

Right, but they goad them by blatantly violating the terms of the ceasefire and threatening to destroy them anyway by doing so. Hamas as two options in that case: 1.) Disappear 2.) Launch rockets and fight in the hopes of forcing a reprieve through new ceasefire terms and international attention.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/22/342318...-israeli-teens
A third option is to condemn all violence. Israel cannot really go all offensive if they have no cover of rocket fire or kidnappings or whatever to make it look good.

So a couple of things here:

1.) Hamas has tried peace via a ceasefire in which it did a good job at controlling third party groups. It simply didn't pay off for Hamas which saw its fishing rights cut during this time (in violation of the 2012 ceasefire deal), and Gaza crossings routinely closed (also in violation of the 2012 ceasefire deal). The fighting here was a direct result of the failure of the peace process with Hamas and a failure to live up to ceasefire obligations by Netanyahu's Administration (and due to the Sisi takeover of Egypt). You want them to condemn all violence? Fine I'd honestly like that too, but what would it get them? Where is the evidence that it would in any way improve situations in Gaza or for the Palestinians?

2.) Abbas has tried this exact tract in the West Bank only to be met with a failure by Israel to live up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises, a slow death of Palestinian statehood through settlement expansion, and political unrest as Abbas and his allies are labeled puppets of Israel or at the very least complicit in the face of ongoing Israeli abuse, discrimination, and violence. Israel has demonstrated quite visibly in the West Bank that condemning violence doesn't net Palestinians anything other than fewer bombs being dropped on them. They have provided little incentive for peace.

To be perfectly straightforward, it was this violence that has led Israel to a ceasefire that actually addressed some of Gaza's grievances. So as distasteful and immoral as we both find it; the simple fact is that it worked. Israel has created a situation where the only paths that pay dividends are ones of violence.

I disagree totally. A couple of years isn't going to resolve anything. That kind of short term thinking will lead them to where they are. As long as the violence continues, and is effectively started by Hamas, then Israel continues to win.

You didn't address the main question here: what incentives have Israel created for peace? We've seen years of it in the West Bank and years of a fully cooperative Palestinian governmental authority that denounces violence and recognizes Israel's right to exist and in the face of all of that absolutely zero gains by Palestinians in the West Bank in the area of West Bank specific issues such as settlement expansion.

Where are the incentives? You can disagree but your counter argument isn't very fleshed out here in terms of addressing my points.

Are you actually looking for a counter argument from me as to whether Israel has blame? This may have gotten away from me, but my only point in all this is that Hamas is not going to improve the situation. I have zero expectation of Israel offering real incentives. I'm not sure why you would think I was implying that.

[umair127]

They need to categorically separate themselves from any military action in a very public way, then make the easy case for the financial oppression Israel is carrying out.

Palestinians are their own worst enemy, and they just don't get it.

I disagree. What Israel is doing is inexcusable. And here you keep treating them as one group. They aren't. Hamas is self interested. No surprise there. We can either accept that reality and move forward with talks realizing this or we can never have peace. So far Israel has opted for the latter.

To this I would respond that you should check around for what various people interviewed in Gaza had to say about the public executions. They make my case. Obviously there are many differences within any group. But on this, they are the victims of their upbringing...including schools and culture. They say the wrong things. Israelis do the same things, but media generally makes the Israelis who are into the violence look like the rare loon.

I say it wouldn't work because I honestly don't see how it could. Before we were talking about a business leader in charge of the PA, here you are advocating one in Gaza. That wouldn't change anything in Gaza, how could it? It wouldn't change the farming and fishing crisis, the crisis of medical supplies, fuel, or cash, the salinity and water crisis, it wouldn't end the blockade. I'm not sure how you would see such a leader in Gaza as making a big difference. Israel has been pretty consistent in its treatment of Gaza regardless of how peaceful or violent Hamas acts.

Lack of consistency will always fail. I was speaking of the PA. Gaza itself is pretty much a walking morgue at this point. But had they taken a somewhat different path, there would have been a much better path.

The point is that even when Hamas adheres to ceasefire conditions and brings violence to a standstill they still have not seen any progress in having general grievances addressed. Once again, where is the incentive? You are asking them to sit quietly while Israel suffocates them and the Gazan population. I doubt that most of us would do as much. Israel has certainly started wars over far less.

I was speaking of the PA. Gaza itself is pretty much a walking morgue at this point. But had they taken a somewhat different path, there would have been a much better path.

Unfortunately there is no evidence of this.

Again, you're asking the wrong question. I doubt Israel will ever willingly give incentives in a straightforward fashion. They get away with that by pointing to thousands of rockets being fired at them. You're trying to make it right versus wrong, and that has never been my point.

[sana8410]

As far as the NPR link goes, after reading it here I see that the source is Saleh al-Arouri; which would mean that the attack did not stem from Hamas leadership in Gaza, but rather more likely through an exile chain operating independently in the West Bank and directed from Turkey (where he lives).

But even here there isn't evidence of it being directed even from Turkey. All he said in his statement was that Al Qassam Brigade members carried it out, which we already knew, it was merely determined that they were operating alone and not under the direction of Hamas (by the Israeli police chief of the area and by independent analysts). While this douche bag is praising them, he did not actually state that he or Hamas in Gaza ordered the attack. Which of course makes the NPR headline a bit misleading.

Who corrected it? Hamas? Nope.And that's the problem.

Corrected it? Hamas denied that it carried the attack out from the start. Or do you mean who solved the situation by rescuing the students? That question would seem to imply that you think that Gaza's operational headquarters in Gaza have operational control of the West Bank branch of the attackers or even of the larger West Bank Qassam Brigade branch.

It doesn't matter in the least what either one of us thinks. Perception is key, and American perception remains the same or worse.

I can't say that I fully agree. I saw much more outrage, particularly among the youth in our country and on social media during this conflict than I did during Operation Cast Lead, or during Operation Pillar of Defense. Now I don't have solid data on it, so who knows.

As far as the kidnappings go, it is in Israel's interests to blame the leadership of Hamas for it because it wants to destroy the unity government so that it isn't forced into a peace process that it doesn't want to take part in. Just another example of Netanyahu's administration not being a partner for peace.

[umair127]

I don't think he could do worse. And if done properly, it could work quite well. Surviving the change would be pretty difficult, of course.

I have, but I also base my opinions on more than anecdotal evidence.

The current ceasefire has the same conditionals and elements in it (and then some more on top of them) that Israel never fully implemented in the 2012 ceasefire despite a halt to rocket attacks. With the pressure that Netanyahu is getting from conservatives, I can't see Israel living up to this ceasefire which is likely way over ambitious, especially when it comes to the mandated later talks and dependency on a second round of successful negotiations.

Anecdotal evidence? We're discussing changing the American mindset, and you're saying people shouldn't trust what people on the streets of the place in question are saying/thinking because it's anecdotal evidence?

I don't believe you thought that through. "Are you going to believe all this theory, or your lying eyes?" Or in this case, ears.

I'm saying that your couple of personal sources or youtube videos are anecdotal evidence. If you really want to understand general attitudes in a more robust fashion then you need solid polling data which has been available and some of which has been posted in this thread.

Paying attention to comments in the street is vital, but you need to be able to support the conclusions you draw from that with more than that.

I can't remember which mainstream media outlet I was watching...odds are it was CNN, but I don't recall. I remain saying you are looking at the wrong issue. I'm not discussing objective right or wrong here, but rather perceptions given to average Americans.

[sana8410]

You seem to flitter between realpolitik and the issuing of your own opinions. Maybe it's just the nature of communicating over forum boards here and I have been misinterpreting.

I'll boil down my stance here though in a nut shell:

1.) Israel isn't a partner for peace, Abbas in the West Bank is for the Palestinians.

2.) There can be no peace unless Israel is a partner

3.) In order to make Israel a partner the pressure needs to come from external forces since it certainly isn't going to come within Israel given the rise of conservatism domestically and the powerful Ultra-Orthodox lobby.

4.) Thus in order for international pressure to build against Israel and force Israel's hand (something we've seen happen before) a discussion of right and wrong absolutely needs to take place, constantly and in public.

[umair127]

I don't believe you thought that through. "Are you going to believe all this theory, or your lying eyes?" Or in this case, ears.

I'll give an example then: I speak to a lot of Nigerians concerning Boko Haram, they tell me all about how it is a CIA plot to discredit Islam and keep Goodluck Johnathan and southerners in power after the 2015 elections. Now I could just listen to people on the street here and there, or I could file that away, look at larger attitudes through a more rigorous polling methodology, see how they compare, and examine intelligence reports as well as well as my own background knowledge of the situation.

Again, you're discussing something other than American opinion/perspective, which is almost totally based on what they see on their favorite news program. And that is what forms opinions for most people.

[umair127]

As far as the NPR link goes, after reading it here I see that the source is Saleh al-Arouri; which would mean that the attack did not stem from Hamas leadership in Gaza, but rather more likely through an exile chain operating independently in the West Bank and directed from Turkey (where he lives).

But even here there isn't evidence of it being directed even from Turkey. All he said in his statement was that Al Qassam Brigade members carried it out, which we already knew, it was merely determined that they were operating alone and not under the direction of Hamas (by the Israeli police chief of the area and by independent analysts). While this douche bag is praising them, he did not actually state that he or Hamas in Gaza ordered the attack. Which of course makes the NPR headline a bit misleading.

Who corrected it? Hamas? Nope.And that's the problem.

Corrected it? Hamas denied that it carried the attack out from the start. Or do you mean who solved the situation by rescuing the students? That question would seem to imply that you think that Gaza's operational headquarters in Gaza have operational control of the West Bank branch of the attackers or even of the larger West Bank Qassam Brigade branch.

It doesn't matter in the least what either one of us thinks. Perception is key, and American perception remains the same or worse.

I can't say that I fully agree. I saw much more outrage, particularly among the youth in our country and on social media during this conflict than I did during Operation Cast Lead, or during Operation Pillar of Defense. Now I don't have solid data on it, so who knows.

As far as the kidnappings go, it is in Israel's interests to blame the leadership of Hamas for it because it wants to destroy the unity government so that it isn't forced into a peace process that it doesn't want to take part in. Just another example of Netanyahu's administration not being a partner for peace.

It's also an example of someone who purports to be a senior Hamas spokesman accepting blame for the kidnappings. Whatever is the truth beyond that remains cloudy to most.

[sana8410]

I don't believe you thought that through. "Are you going to believe all this theory, or your lying eyes?" Or in this case, ears.

I'll give an example then: I speak to a lot of Nigerians concerning Boko Haram, they tell me all about how it is a CIA plot to discredit Islam and keep Goodluck Johnathan and southerners in power after the 2015 elections. Now I could just listen to people on the street here and there, or I could file that away, look at larger attitudes through a more rigorous polling methodology, see how they compare, and examine intelligence reports as well as well as my own background knowledge of the situation.

Again, you're discussing something other than American opinion/perspective, which is almost totally based on what they see on their favorite news program. And that is what forms opinions for most people.

I'm not talking about negotiations with a country that has no interest in negotiations (Israel) I'm talking about using discourse of right and wrong to politically force action from Israel through external means. Israel can only use Hamas as an excuse for as long as the international community allows them to, and instead of surrendering to that propaganda and obfuscation line I'd rather further public discourse through attention to right and wrong.

It's also an example of someone who purports to be a senior Hamas spokesman accepting blame for the kidnappings. Whatever is the truth beyond that remains cloudy to most.

He didn't accept blame for them though.

[zolace]

Something I was thinking about regarding the media aspect of the war...

When Israel capture Palestinian fighters, it is referred to as detainment/arrest and they are called prisoners. When Hamas captures Israeli fighters, it is referred to as grabbing/snatching and they are called victims of kidnapping.

[bryant.coleman]

3.) In order to make Israel a partner the pressure needs to come from external forces since it certainly isn't going to come within Israel given the rise of conservatism domestically and the powerful Ultra-Orthodox lobby.

I agree that the current Israeli government is being led by the Conservatives (esp. Likud-Beitenu). But the Ultra-Orthodox parties (Shas & UTJ) have lost all the powers which they had enjoyed in the past. The current ruling coalition is a mix of the conservative religious groups (Benjamin Netanyahu& Naftali Bennett), Russian Jews (Avigdor Lieberman) and the non-religious (led by Yair Lapid).  

[umair127]

You seem to flitter between realpolitik and the issuing of your own opinions. Maybe it's just the nature of communicating over forum boards here and I have been misinterpreting.

I'll boil down my stance here though in a nut shell:

1.) Israel isn't a partner for peace, Abbas in the West Bank is for the Palestinians.

2.) There can be no peace unless Israel is a partner

3.) In order to make Israel a partner the pressure needs to come from external forces since it certainly isn't going to come within Israel given the rise of conservatism domestically and the powerful Ultra-Orthodox lobby.

4.) Thus in order for international pressure to build against Israel and force Israel's hand (something we've seen happen before) a discussion of right and wrong absolutely needs to take place, constantly and in public.

While I don't really disagree with anything there in a sense, I also don't believe Israel will ever be a partner for peace voluntarily. And as long as Hamas or some successor continues to send rockets over and kidnaps/kills people as in the case of those students, no amount of discussion will change minds in the US. Well, maybe in 50 or 75 years, but not in a foreseeable timeline. We don't necessarily disagree on anything except tactics.

[umair127]

Something I was thinking about regarding the media aspect of the war...

When Israel capture Palestinian fighters, it is referred to as detainment/arrest and they are called prisoners. When Hamas captures Israeli fighters, it is referred to as grabbing/snatching and they are called victims of kidnapping.

The truth of the matter is the media has robbed palestinians of their legitimacy. They've been turned into the aggressors when anyone with an ounce of independent thought can see it's the other way around. don't tell mover that though.

[umair127]

israel's greatest victory against the palestinians over the last 65 years is the propaganda war. they've successfully convinced the western world that this a battle of two equal sides with equal claim to disputed land. Not only that but they've even managed to get people to believe that they are the victims in all of this, it's brilliant really.

[zolace]

israel's greatest victory against the palestinians over the last 65 years is the propaganda war. they've successfully convinced the western world that this a battle of two equal sides with equal claim to disputed land. Not only that but they've even managed to get people to believe that they are the victims in all of this, it's brilliant really.

the greatest victory the zionists have is being on the winning side of every violent conflict since the inception of the country... which i suppose was exactly the point of zionism to being with.

[zolace]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676