are localbitcoin implementing kyc by the back door?

[reg]

Bad trades like this and so many others I see on here and on other places tells me that it is becoming harder and harder to trade btc for fiat and vice versa, I think this is a real problem, someone told me the other day that even cash deposits through bank accounts and wire transfers can also be charged back if someone really wanted, though they are not as easy as paypal.

Can't you get some sort of document from your bank (if you don't already have one) which does not reveal your sensitive information but just enough to prove that it was you who sent the money and it was your bank account?

yes- that's what I have set up today. Unfortunately it takes 3 days and then I have to find someone who can download it to a document file and forward it!. But my time limit on the escrow runs out in 12 hrs and there is nothing more I can do now. I shall have to rely on the bank to recover the funds from the sellers a/c.

[reg]

Bad trades like this and so many others I see on here and on other places tells me that it is becoming harder and harder to trade btc for fiat and vice versa, I think this is a real problem, someone told me the other day that even cash deposits through bank accounts and wire transfers can also be charged back if someone really wanted, though they are not as easy as paypal.

Can't you get some sort of document from your bank (if you don't already have one) which does not reveal your sensitive information but just enough to prove that it was you who sent the money and it was your bank account?

yes- that's what I have set up today. Unfortunately it takes 3 days and then I have to find someone who can download it to a document file and forward it!. But my time limit on the escrow runs out in 12 hrs and there is nothing more I can do now. I shall have to rely on the bank to recover the funds from the sellers a/c.

 reginald1377: final statement prior to closing of the dispute time window:
1) selller has changed "terms of trade" from what I saw on 21/7/2014 to what is there now. Therefore I do not feel bound by kyc requirements.
2 I either cannot or will not (you choose) supply information which imposes on my right to a private financial life.
3)The requirements by lbtc are kyc by the back door:
A receipt of the payment
Bank bill statement
Personal ID document
Anything requested by LocalBitcoins support can also be uploaded here.
4) You can either -release the btc or return the fiat to the a/c from which it originated (thereby obviating your concern it came from an a/c other than my own) or keep both the btc and fiat for now.
5)I have instigated a fraud enquiry with the bank as I paid for goods you failed to supply. Only then when your a/c is debited by the bank will you realise the payment was from a genuine owner of the a/c.
6)Be aware that all this information will be online to the whole bitcoin community worldwide so that all bitcoiners can see and understand how localbitcoin.com and at least one of its sellers functions.
7) I will be posting a negative feedback report on this trade.

ps: I will also post any response and the decision of lbtc here so be careful if you decide to be "economical with the truth"

[reg]

He's afraid that you've tricked someone else into sending the money by promising to sell them something. It's a very common way to scam people.

That is a method I was not aware of! I wish someone would produce a "common scamming methods manual" so we can familiarise ourselves with all these!
I know kyc does not work because if it did there would be no scams in the fiat world. I do not think it will work in btc but I have avoided exchanges and this is my first problem in lbtc. For example I fail to see a photo of a bank card proves anything other than I have the card in my possession, stolen,borrowed or otherwise? I fail to see ID being linked to any bank a/c since the only relevant similarity would be the name (I have real name verification on the site). But I share my initial and surname with my son and at least one famous actor+ hundreds more people. I rely more on trust rating but the seller obviously does not?. I do not pretend to know what the answer to scammers is but I know kyc is not the answer.

[reg]

Bad trades like this and so many others I see on here and on other places tells me that it is becoming harder and harder to trade btc for fiat and vice versa, I think this is a real problem, someone told me the other day that even cash deposits through bank accounts and wire transfers can also be charged back if someone really wanted, though they are not as easy as paypal.

Can't you get some sort of document from your bank (if you don't already have one) which does not reveal your sensitive information but just enough to prove that it was you who sent the money and it was your bank account?

yes- that's what I have set up today. Unfortunately it takes 3 days and then I have to find someone who can download it to a document file and forward it!. But my time limit on the escrow runs out in 12 hrs and there is nothing more I can do now. I shall have to rely on the bank to recover the funds from the sellers a/c.

 reginald1377: final statement prior to closing of the dispute time window:
1) selller has changed "terms of trade" from what I saw on 21/7/2014 to what is there now. Therefore I do not feel bound by kyc requirements.
2 I either cannot or will not (you choose) supply information which imposes on my right to a private financial life.
3)The requirements by lbtc are kyc by the back door:
A receipt of the payment
Bank bill statement
Personal ID document
Anything requested by LocalBitcoins support can also be uploaded here.
4) You can either -release the btc or return the fiat to the a/c from which it originated (thereby obviating your concern it came from an a/c other than my own) or keep both the btc and fiat for now.
5)I have instigated a fraud enquiry with the bank as I paid for goods you failed to supply. Only then when your a/c is debited by the bank will you realise the payment was from a genuine owner of the a/c.
6)Be aware that all this information will be online to the whole bitcoin community worldwide so that all bitcoiners can see and understand how localbitcoin.com and at least one of its sellers functions.
7) I will be posting a negative feedback report on this trade.

ps: I will also post any response and the decision of lbtc here so be careful if you decide to be "economical with the truth"

attempting to resolve this trade:

 July 24, 2014, 10:25 a.m.

reginald1377: I have had real name verification on this site for a long time! I use Santander -same as you.
July 24, 2014, 10:22 a.m.

Deb2com : Or kindly tell me the name of the bank you sent money from, then I will release to you , is that ok.?
July 24, 2014, 10:20 a.m.

Deb2com : If you just give me just one ID showing your name, I will release the coins than going through all this stress mate
July 24, 2014, 9:52 a.m.

Deb2com : Why are you so difficult? Can you send me the account pls

[reg]

Bad trades like this and so many others I see on here and on other places tells me that it is becoming harder and harder to trade btc for fiat and vice versa, I think this is a real problem, someone told me the other day that even cash deposits through bank accounts and wire transfers can also be charged back if someone really wanted, though they are not as easy as paypal.

Can't you get some sort of document from your bank (if you don't already have one) which does not reveal your sensitive information but just enough to prove that it was you who sent the money and it was your bank account?

yes- that's what I have set up today. Unfortunately it takes 3 days and then I have to find someone who can download it to a document file and forward it!. But my time limit on the escrow runs out in 12 hrs and there is nothing more I can do now. I shall have to rely on the bank to recover the funds from the sellers a/c.

 reginald1377: final statement prior to closing of the dispute time window:
1) selller has changed "terms of trade" from what I saw on 21/7/2014 to what is there now. Therefore I do not feel bound by kyc requirements.
2 I either cannot or will not (you choose) supply information which imposes on my right to a private financial life.
3)The requirements by lbtc are kyc by the back door:
A receipt of the payment
Bank bill statement
Personal ID document
Anything requested by LocalBitcoins support can also be uploaded here.
4) You can either -release the btc or return the fiat to the a/c from which it originated (thereby obviating your concern it came from an a/c other than my own) or keep both the btc and fiat for now.
5)I have instigated a fraud enquiry with the bank as I paid for goods you failed to supply. Only then when your a/c is debited by the bank will you realise the payment was from a genuine owner of the a/c.
6)Be aware that all this information will be online to the whole bitcoin community worldwide so that all bitcoiners can see and understand how localbitcoin.com and at least one of its sellers functions.
7) I will be posting a negative feedback report on this trade.

ps: I will also post any response and the decision of lbtc here so be careful if you decide to be "economical with the truth"

attempting to resolve this trade:

 July 24, 2014, 10:25 a.m.

reginald1377: I have had real name verification on this site for a long time! I use Santander -same as you.
July 24, 2014, 10:22 a.m.

Deb2com : Or kindly tell me the name of the bank you sent money from, then I will release to you , is that ok.?
July 24, 2014, 10:20 a.m.

Deb2com : If you just give me just one ID showing your name, I will release the coins than going through all this stress mate
July 24, 2014, 9:52 a.m.

Deb2com : Why are you so difficult? Can you send me the account pls

July 24, 2014, 10:29 a.m.

Deb2com : Ok, good I will release to you on trust pls I will advise that you read terms of trade next time you buy from other sellers. I could just verify now because you paid from the same bank as me and I could see that your account has been created for long but you name is not yet verified as you claim. I will release on trust. Cheers

RESOLVED.
As with all disputes a negotiated settlement involving compromise is often the only answer. The sellers compromise was releasing the btc on a trust basis! My compromise was accepting the blame for not "allegedly" reading or understanding the terms and conditions.

conclusion. In my opinion a trust based system is the best way forward for btc. kyc failed in the fiat system and is failing in its application to btc. I do not know the answer for scammers, fraudsters and con-men? similarly the community is having difficulties with hackers, inside traders and colleagues in exchanges? any comments on how these can be tackled would be illuminating and welcome.

[bitbaby]

Glad that it worked out for you man, and since I accompanied you through this ordeal you should.. lol jk

But seriously, Localbitcoins did nothing in this, as an escrow they should really explain everything to each side prior to the trade, since they're getting paid to do this they should be involved in this more actively rather than sit in corner and watch. I hope I never have to trade with localbitcoins, I don't like them very much.

[reg]

Glad that it worked out for you man, and since I accompanied you through this ordeal you should.. lol jk

But seriously, Localbitcoins did nothing in this, as an escrow they should really explain everything to each side prior to the trade, since they're getting paid to do this they should be involved in this more actively rather than sit in corner and watch. I hope I never have to trade with localbitcoins, I don't like them very much.

thanks for the moral support. I only use lbtc because it is at the moment the only alternative to an exchange to trade. To be fair most traders do not apply kyc I was just unfortunate but hope I have learned something in the experience.