Israel's future war: War of God and Magog

[Rigon]

Ancient prophesy ?That is just a lame excuse for continued hatred and prejudice.
I don't see the Jews declaring a holy war. No one really give a flying fuck about ancient prophesy. There are people with stone-age intellect with their fingers on nuclear weapons.

Matthew 24:22
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Niether do I, and i agree people will use their interpretations of prophesy to not only gain political power, but guide foreign policy. Israel isn't powerful enough on their own to do that, nor do i think they want to  .

I would disagree with you, about God having no more plans for the actual nation of Israel - he has some unfinished prophecies otherwise.  Including what Jesus says in Acts about restoring the kingdom of Israel, and Paul in Romans.

That does not negate God have a dual purpose to some of the passages.

But, either way, yes, one would want to exercise great care in foreign policy in seeking to bring about any such.  Nor do I think anyone generally has.

[noviapriani]

OK, in Israel you have the Orthodox Jews who do nothing except study the Talmud and breed.  They don't work and live on money devoted to them by the state, ie taxes paid by non-Orthodox  members of society.  Nor do they figure in the armed forces.

[Rigon]

Ok I think I need to revise that.   The nation of Israel coming into being - Truman recognizing it may have been influenced by prophecy, I dont know.  It was influenced, from what I understand, from the Bible, but also from what the Jews went through in Europe, etc.

And I was commenting on US foreign policy - Iranian foreign policy may very well be influenced by Shia eschatalogy.

I don't think the invasion of Iraq, or support of Libya, or giving bunker bombs to Israel recently (whatever the merits of those actions), were due to giving heed to any prophetic understanding.

[noviapriani]

What is happening is because they breed like dogs with litters of more than a dozen per family, they are out-breeding the secular and other non-Orthodox citizens. There is pressure on the secular to emigrate which will further increase the Orthodox as a percentage of the population.  Remember, they won't don the army uniform and defend their state so the onus remains with a steadily decreasing number of non-orthodox Jews. There will come a time when there won't be enough taxpayers to fund the Orthodox lifestyle.  Will American taxpayers take up the task?

  Israel won't last long as a state as envisioned by Zionists under these circumstances.

[Rigon]

What is happening is because they breed like dogs with litters of more than a dozen per family, they are out-breeding the secular and other non-Orthodox citizens. There is pressure on the secular to emigrate which will further increase the Orthodox as a percentage of the population.  Remember, they won't don the army uniform and defend their state so the onus remains with a steadily decreasing number of non-orthodox Jews. There will come a time when there won't be enough taxpayers to fund the Orthodox lifestyle.  Will American taxpayers take up the task?

  Israel won't last long as a state as envisioned by Zionists under these circumstances.

That is pretty interesting, and probably has alot of merit.  Why wont the orthodox not fight in the army?

[zolace]

Romans speaks of Israel being "grafted" back into the olive tree or body, putting back what was natural to begin with, but included back into the new, not the old. I take it to mean a natural Jew, someone familiar with the old laws.

Not sure what you mean by prophecies still needing to be fulfilled by the nation of Israel, i see no clear language for that. I don't see a turning to Christ as a nation, or the boarders we call Israel....unlikely don't you think? with all the hardcore tradition and secular nature of the nation

[dank]

Christians are people who are christ like.  No man going about and killing others is truly a christian, stop letting their facade deceive you.

Religion is originally about love.  It has been severely basterdized over the years.  Those that practice fear and hatred in the name of peace and god are no more than satanic beings weather they are concious of it or not.

[Rigon]

It is clear, in Romans 11 for example, that he is talking about Israel the nation - as it was (when he wrote) rejecting Jesus.

It is not Christians here below that are experiencing the hardening.  Israel here below is not symbolic.

25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;
26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

[Rigon]

In Daniel 9, Daniel hears in response to his prayers concering the captivity of the Jews and their restoration the folowing below.  Only 69 weeks of years has passed.  The rest below has already been fulfilled.  Jesus, the annointed one, is cut off after 62 weeks of years (which came after 7 weeks of years in the previous verse).

24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate.

[zolace]

In Daniel 9, Daniel hears in response to his prayers concering the captivity of the Jews and their restoration the folowing below.  Only 69 weeks of years has passed.  The rest below has already been fulfilled.  Jesus, the annointed one, is cut off after 62 weeks of years (which came after 7 weeks of years in the previous verse).

24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate.

I can't use Daniel as firm evidence. No where in the new Testament is there clear evidence that points to the 'nation of Israel' in our day, yet plenty of clear evidence that Israel is defined as His people. See i look more closely at what the Bible points to in clear language as better evidence

[Rigon]

The verse I gave from Romans clearly shows that Israel is not referring to Christians.  Are you disagreeing with that?  Or are you meaning something else there?

I am not disagreeing that Israel can refer to other than the nation elsewhere, depending on context.

[noviapriani]

when the state of Israel started Ben Gurian et al made it law that orthodox could study the Talmud and not be required to work or serve in the army.  So they don't and they breed so prolifically that they are beginning to register as a majority.  

When the youth qualify to vote their party (parties) will be most influential.

[Rigon]

When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15.

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

[zolace]

When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15.

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

[Rigon]

Well, then as you point out, things will have to change for them to survive.

In fact, given the scripture posted somewhere on this thread (would have to go look), the attack on Israel that is being referred to comes when Israel is not expecting it, and certainly beyond anything they can do about it.

One of several reasons why this current crisis is not the crisis referred to in this passage.

[umair127]

When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15.

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

There is next to no evidence that the Jews were ever in servitude in Egypt.  And absolutely none that Moses existed at all, let alone he picked up the ten commandments.

[zolace]

Well, then as you point out, things will have to change for them to survive.

In fact, given the scripture posted somewhere on this thread (would have to go look), the attack on Israel that is being referred to comes when Israel is not expecting it, and certainly beyond anything they can do about it.

One of several reasons why this current crisis is not the crisis referred to in this passage.

i would disagree as far as what i think "Israel" refers to. I don't have time now to expand maybe later tonite. I don't disagree the nation may be part of something just as any nation could, but see a danger in dogmatic beliefs on what that is .

[Rigon]

When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15.

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

If you mean as a nation with land boundaries, etc, at the time of Exodus, sure, no disagreement there.

But, Israel was a nation of people, were the descendants of Abraham that, through Moses and Joshua, went to the land promised to Abraham over 400 years ago, and thus began a nation with boundaries (no king at the time).

On a related note for others that may read this, since the question comes up regarding how they treated the people of the land during Joshua's time, God had told Abraham over 400 years earlier that the time of reckoning for their sins was coming.  They were pretty depraved by the time Joshua led Israel there.

[Rigon]

When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15.

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

There is next to no evidence that the Jews were ever in servitude in Egypt.  And absolutely none that Moses existed at all, let alone he picked up the ten commandments.

the question is not whether the Bible is the Word of God, but what it is teaching.To your point, there is no evidence contrary to what the Bible records as history.

[zolace]

When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15.

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

If you mean as a nation with land boundaries, etc, at the time of Exodus, sure, no disagreement there.

But, Israel was a nation of people, were the descendants of Abraham that, through Moses and Joshua, went to the land promised to Abraham over 400 years ago, and thus began a nation with boundaries (no king at the time).

On a related note for others that may read this, since the question comes up regarding how they treated the people of the land during Joshua's time, God had told Abraham over 400 years earlier that the time of reckoning for their sins was coming.  They were pretty depraved by the time Joshua led Israel there.

Yes Israel was a people chosen of God first and foremost who was given land, called a nation. See where the word nation is used again and for who; His people, not just Jews but Gentiles

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

His people His church a Holy nation without boarders, 2nd peter is addressed to Gentiles in this context