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Author Topic: World War III  (Read 34275 times)
Pagan (OP)
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August 11, 2014, 09:46:16 AM
 #1


Window on Eurasia: Putin Believes He can Win a War with NATO, Piontkovsky Says

 Paul Goble

Staunton, August 9 – “No state or regime goes to war firmly convinced that it will lose it,” Andrey Piontkovsky says, and Vladimir Putin is no exception: if he goes to war with NATO and even if he escalates that conflict by using nuclear weapons, he will be acting on the basis of a belief that he can win it.
That belief, the Russian commentator says, is based on Putin’s assumption that the logic of mutually assured destruction (MAD) which prevented a major war between Russia and the West has broken down because of divisions within the West about how to respond to Russian use of a limited nuclear strike (www1.kasparov.org/material.php?id=53E4C598A8B3F).

Piontkovsky does not provide direct evidence for this, but his argument is both suggestive and disturbing because if he has read Putin correctly, the world is in a far more dangerous situation than most have thought and the risks to Russia’s neighbors, the West and Russia itself are far greater.
According to the commentator, “even the most modest practical realization of [Putin’s] idea of ‘assembling the Russian lands’ requires changes of state borders at least of two NATO member countries, Latvia and Estonia.”  Because of the Western alliance’s Article 5 in which an attack on one is an attack on all, that would seem impossible given MAD.

But as many analysts have suggested before, “the MAD doctrine considered only a single most destructive scenario of a military conflict between nuclear powers, total war.” But there are other scenarios, including the limited use of nuclear weapons by one side under conditions when the other side does not respond lest that lead to “mutual suicide.”
It is “theoretically clear,” Piontkovsky argues, “that in a more volatile geopolitical situation, a nuclear power focused on changing the existing status quo, enjoying the advantage of political will and indifferent to the values of human lives (its own and others), and affected by a certain adventurism, could achieve serious foreign policy results by the threat of the application or the limited application of nuclear weapons.”

Clearly, he continues, Putin does not seek “the destruction of the hated United States,” a goal that he could achieve “only at the price of mutual suicide.” Instead, his goals are “significantly more modest: the maximum extension of the Russian World, the destruction of NATO, and the discrediting and humiliation of the US as the guarantor of the security of the West.”
To put it in simplest terms, Piontkovsky continues, Putin’s actions would be “revenge for the defeat of the USSR in the third (cold) world war just as the second world war was for Germany an attempt at revenge for defeat in the first.”

If the Russian speakers of Narva in Estonia were to conduct a referendum and Moscow sent in its forces overtly or covertly, how might NATO react? Piontkovsky asks. If NATO did not respond, “that would mean the end of NATO and the end of the US as a world power and the complete political dominance of Putin’s Russia not only in the area of the Russian World but in the entire European continent.”
But whether it would respond “is hardly obvious,” he suggests. Despite Article 5, many NATO countries would be reluctant to respond lest they trigger a nuclear war. “Putin knows that they know that if they come to the assistance of Estonia, then Putin can respond with a very limited nuclear strike and destroy for example two European capitals. Not London and not Paris, of course.”

Under those circumstances, Putin clearly assumes, many in the US would oppose responding.  “All progressive and even all reactionary American society” would shout “’We do not want to die for f****** Narva, Mr. President!’” And 70 percent of Germans would insist on neutrality.
Putin therefore is “convinced that he can outplay [Western countries and leaders] in potential military conflicts which will arise on the path to the realization of the great idea of the Russian World despite the fact that Russia” is much weaker in conventional arms than NATO and does not have an advantage over the US in nuclear ones.

 “By the spirit we will take them,” Putin calculates in Piontkovsky’s argument. “By the spirit and by boldness.”

Thus, Putin’s plans are “paradoxically adventurist but have chances for success,” all the more so because “in the case of failure, Putin always retains” the option to respond in ways that the MAD doctrine suggests and destroy the world along with Russia.  That will induce “a paralyzing influence on his ‘partners.’”
Indeed, Piontkovsky says, there is evidence that it already has. It was no accident that the first response of US President Obama and NATO Secretary General Rasmussen to the Ukrainian crisis were “declarations that military intervention by the US and NATO were categorically excluded since Ukraine is not a member” of the Western alliance.

http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.com/2014/08/window-on-eurasia-putin-believes-he-can.html?spref=fb

full article (RU) http://www1.kasparov.org/material.php?id=53E4C598A8B3F

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August 11, 2014, 09:51:57 AM
 #2


Russian colonel Zhirinovsky threatens “total annihilation” of Baltics & Poland



Zhirinovsky, leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR), issued a series of threats towards the European Union’s easternmost states.

On the show, Zhirinovsky, who is known for his controversial statements, threatened and suggested launching pre-emptive strikes against the Baltic states of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, as well as Poland. He justified the remarks by suggesting that Russia “cannot allow” peripheral nations’ missile defenses and air forces to be within striking distance of Russia, and that Russia should seek to destroy them ‘a half hour before they launch.’

The language used in the broadcast was especially inciteful, not only calling for the carpet bombing of the four countries, but their entire annihilation.

“What will remain of the Baltics? Nothing will remain…in Poland, the Baltics, they are doomed. They’ll be wiped out.”

“Let the leaders of these dwarf states reconsider this. Eastern European states will place themselves under the threat of total annihilation, and only they will be to blame.”

“…we’ll have to teach them the lessons of May 1945.”

Recall that Zhirinovsky has personally aided Russian insurgent groups in Luhansk, and his party has openly set up terrorist training camps in the embattled Luhansk region. The Ukrainian Interior Ministry launched criminal charges against him in July for financing these groups.

The LDPR is Russia’s fourth largest political party.

video (RU)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8w1gwm7EzU&list=UU3icoue9w-9uqxewz_kK6Fg

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/11/russian-colonel-zhirinovsky-threatens-total-annihilation-of-baltics-poland/

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August 11, 2014, 10:04:19 AM
 #3


Zapad 2009 featured a simulated tactical nuclear strike against Poland and thereby heralded the emergence of a military doctrine which legitimises the introduction of tactical nuclear weapons in a regional conflict against a non-nuclear power.

Russian Ladoga 2013 Exercises: Target Finland

Russian military exercises in the Republic of Karelia near the Finnish border are due to start next week. Since the Georgia conflict in 2008, relations between Finland and Russia have deteriorated, particularly over the issue of possible Finnish membership of NATO. In the immediate aftermath of the South Ossetian War, Finnish defence officials noted Russia's use of camouflage patterns which were strikingly similar to those fielded by Finnish forces. As a result, military spokesman, Captain Karhuvaara stated that 'If Russian Minstry of the Interior Troops were to invade Finland, we would encounter serious trouble'. More generally, the recognition that Russia's threshold for using military violence was lower than anticipated has led to greater defence cooperation with other western states. It will be instructive to see how this year's drills compare with the Zapad and Ladoga 2009 exercises which were largest ever Russian exercises since the defeat of the Soviet Union in the Cold War. The latter were formally separate but may be considered as part of an extended series of exercises which took place in August and September 2009. Zapad 2009 featured a simulated tactical nuclear strike against Poland and thereby heralded the emergence of a military doctrine which legitimises the introduction of tactical nuclear weapons in a regional conflict against a non-nuclear power. This year, Finland may receive more of Russia's attention. According to the Russian Federation, NATO expansion to the Russo-Finnish frontier would by itself constitute a military threat. This point was made most bluntly by General Makarov last year when he compared Finnish behaviour to the situation in the Caucasus before 8 August 2008; that is to say, casus belli. This point is made explicit in article 17 of the 2009 Russian National Security Strategy which reads: 'The defining factor in relations with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation will remain the unacceptability for Russia of plans to bring the Alliance’s military infrastructure forward to Russia’s borders'.[1] In accordance with Russia's military doctrine, this would necessarily lead to a military response. However, by wielding threats toward Finland, Russia may be encouraging the opposite outcome of that which it desires.

http://highnorthhightension.blogspot.com/2013/03/russian-ladoga-2013-exercises-target.html

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August 11, 2014, 04:47:48 PM
 #4

..Russia IS NOT ALONE.......  this would be very bad if things went south.. I do not see the BRICs leaving Russia on it's own...
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August 11, 2014, 04:58:43 PM
 #5

I don't care if Russia's war with NATO as long as they do not use nuke.
IMHO if Russia won the war, the world will change.
We would see cyrillic everywhere and forced to learn it LOL  Tongue

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August 11, 2014, 05:06:53 PM
Last edit: August 11, 2014, 05:45:10 PM by Balthazar
 #6

We would see cyrillic everywhere and forced to learn it LOL  Tongue
It's very unlikely. Even during the ages of Russian Empire nobody forced Poland or Finland, for example, to learn cyrillic and use it as the only language... Before the beginning of a period of political instability.  Roll Eyes On the contrary, these parts of the empire have had their own constitutions, governments and parliaments. Finland even had its own currency, which was controlled by its own central bank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Finland
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August 11, 2014, 06:06:55 PM
 #7

..Russia IS NOT ALONE.......  this would be very bad if things went south.. I do not see the BRICs leaving Russia on it's own...

Russia + China will be a powerful combo. Russia + China + India would be almost invincible.  Grin

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August 11, 2014, 06:28:43 PM
 #8

..Russia IS NOT ALONE.......  this would be very bad if things went south.. I do not see the BRICs leaving Russia on it's own...

Russia + China will be a powerful combo. Russia + China + India would be almost invincible.  Grin
It has been started  Roll Eyes

http://rt.com/business/179376-russia-china-fruit-vegetable/
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August 11, 2014, 07:27:20 PM
 #9

In my opinion World War III started right after WW II, back in 1945, (Cold war).
USSR always was against NATO and EU, and specially against democracy and western values.
Putin just continued this policy, nothing really changed much from that time in 1945.
Of course Russia have little different political system now (and USSR collapsed as well) and also Russia have new political leaders but their goal is still the same, to defeat West (and restore USSR if possible, in this process), in any possible way.
They want to become main military and political power in the world, it's obvious.

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August 11, 2014, 07:32:53 PM
Last edit: August 11, 2014, 07:44:47 PM by Balthazar
 #10

USSR always was against NATO and EU
Actually USSR tried to join NATO, but their request has been rejected. This led to creation of alternate military bloc with similar structure and purpose.

By the way, Putin in interview to British television said that RF could once join NATO. So I wouldn't be surprised if it will happen.

and specially against democracy and western values.
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August 11, 2014, 07:45:12 PM
 #11

..Russia IS NOT ALONE.......  this would be very bad if things went south.. I do not see the BRICs leaving Russia on it's own...
THIS

People when talking about WW3, talk about a NATO vs RUSSIA war.
But it will be NATO vs BRICS

BRICS = Brazil Russia India China SouthAfrica
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August 11, 2014, 07:45:51 PM
Last edit: August 11, 2014, 07:56:02 PM by Balthazar
 #12

BRICS is economical alliance, not a military one. However, there is a possible basis for the second version of Eastern bloc:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation

But there are not enough member states yet.
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August 11, 2014, 07:45:58 PM
 #13

Cat guy! Bad to see your brainless propaganda again. Actually I don't see it, because I'm ignoring you, but you know what I mean.

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August 11, 2014, 08:14:22 PM
Last edit: August 12, 2014, 08:38:48 AM by Pagan
 #14

Russia is conducting another large set of military exercises, this time a stone’s throw from the Estonian border.

newsru.com/russia/11aug2014/vdv.html

BALASHIKHA, August 11. /ITAR-TASS/. Russia’s air force is set to establish an operational airbase in western Belarus, Commander-in-Chief Viktor Bondarev said on Monday.
“We will set up a base in Baranovichi. We are only waiting for an intergovernmental agreement to be signed,” he said. Su-27 fighter planes will be based there, he added.

Бeлopyccкиe дecaнтники пpинимaют yчacтиe в кoмaнднo-штaбнoм yчeнии пoд Пcкoвoм http://t.co/IuvFGTiXGa

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20140811/1019546442.html


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August 11, 2014, 08:16:09 PM
 #15

BRICS is economical alliance, not a military one. However, there is a possible basis for the second version of Eastern bloc:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation

But there are not enough member states yet.

Such an alliance would become a military one if a massive war starts, or I think it would.
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August 11, 2014, 08:24:12 PM
 #16

We would see cyrillic everywhere and forced to learn it LOL  Tongue
It's very unlikely. Even during the ages of Russian Empire nobody forced Poland or Finland, for example, to learn cyrillic and use it as the only language... Before the beginning of a period of political instability.  Roll Eyes On the contrary, these parts of the empire have had their own constitutions, governments and parliaments. Finland even had its own currency, which was controlled by its own central bank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Finland

Russification period


To oppose the ever-increasing demands of the right for self-determination voiced by the ethnic minorities in the Russian Empire, Russian nationalism in the second half of the 19th century became stronger, as did the leading elite’s wishes to create a modern unitary nation state. The systematic Russification of the empire’s western border territories started in Poland and Lithuania during the first half of the 19th century and intensified in the 1860s after another Polish uprising. The worst Russification period in Estonia and Latvia occurred between 1880 and 1890; Finnish autonomy was restricted in the late 19th century.

http://www.estonica.org/en/History/1850-1914_National_awakening/Russification_period/


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August 11, 2014, 08:25:04 PM
 #17

this is all bullshit
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August 11, 2014, 08:27:01 PM
 #18

BRICS is economical alliance, not a military one. However, there is a possible basis for the second version of Eastern bloc:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation

But there are not enough member states yet.

Such an alliance would become a military one if a massive war starts, or I think it would.
Maybe, this could happen in case of parallel attack against a few member states...
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August 11, 2014, 08:28:50 PM
 #19

BRICS is economical alliance, not a military one. However, there is a possible basis for the second version of Eastern bloc:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation

But there are not enough member states yet.

Such an alliance would become a military one if a massive war starts, or I think it would.

I don't think that BRICS countries will ever build military alliance.
They may have similar economic interest but their politics viewpoints (or political system) are not similar.
This can change over time but now, China and other countries have real interest for trade with USA and cooperation, not conflict.

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Gargulan
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August 12, 2014, 04:00:15 AM
 #20

Is there any mention of China and their possible role as a 3rd party in all of this? It often seems to be suggested by Russians that China is an ally of theirs, but I see a possibility for a Mexican Stand-off.
Putin's behaviour seems exuberant and irrational. History teaches us that Hitler did not only attack the East, he also attacked the West, and I suspect that that may have annoyed some of his bankers. If I were China, I would feel legitimately threatened if Russia decided to drop bombs on Europe. And of course, Moscow is such a showy, ridiculous target. All that gold plating... And you know how the Chinese love gold.

Putin know US can not afford a direct confrontation with him. He can just slowly picking off one neighbor at a time to show Russia's neighbors they are on their own and not to depend on US or Euro, and act accordingly/submissively to Russia or face attack.
 

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