We do not have a gun culture problem, we have a culture problem.

[Hamuki]

That's because in other parts of the world we don't use unnecessary amounts of drugs on people claiming they have mental problems.

You cant tell me that every single kill from the 10k+ a year that dies in the US is a psycho on drugs.

If you want to own a gun.. A 9mm pistol then you should have military training to be able to own it.

There is no reason to own a rifle if you arent a hunter.

[Lethn]

Yeah, what if they had guns?

First one had.. He just did not have a chance to point it at me before he was passed out by my bat.

Second one did not have a gun.

gg in that case but honestly you got lucky taking him by surprise, I don't advocate the killing of people when they're surrendering or running away by any means don't get me wrong, I think doing that makes you a murderer, but the fact is the last thing you want is to be facing an armed gang with absolutely nothing on you if you have the option of not doing so.

Also, if there's no reason to own a gun, why do the military and police carry them? It's that simple, also, I'm going to go and gather evidence now that proves my theory about mass killings.

Edit: Holy shit, that was easy - http://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/ - That's 34 cases I have found in 5 seconds where the mass murderers were either on drugs or had stopped taking them, either way that could have easily been the cause, this is something people like you like to ignore quite a bit.

[Hamuki]

Yeah, what if they had guns?

First one had.. He just did not have a chance to point it at me before he was passed out by my bat.

Second one did not have a gun.

gg in that case but honestly you got lucky taking him by surprise, I don't advocate the killing of people when they're surrendering or running away by any means don't get me wrong, I think doing that makes you a murderer, but the fact is the last thing you want is to be facing an armed gang with absolutely nothing on you if you have the option of not doing so.

Also, if there's no reason to own a gun, why do the military and police carry them? It's that simple, also, I'm going to go and gather evidence now that proves my theory about mass killings.

Edit: Holy shit, that was easy - http://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/ - That's 34 cases I have found in 5 seconds where the mass murderers were either on drugs or had stopped taking them, either way that could have easily been the cause, this is something people like you like to ignore quite a bit.

But mass murders arent killing 10k+ people a year..
And yea, most mass killlings are from people with psyko problems.

But im talking about the "normal" people who pulls out a gun, and fires. Not a desturbed person that runs into a school with a rifle and kills children.

[Lethn]

That's life, if you don't take responsibility for your actions then the police are going to do the shooting for you, the same goes for the army and as we've seen they tend to royally fuck things up just as badly as any of us could because they're only human, I personally would much rather take responsibility for my own actions defending myself and know I did my best than push all the blame and responsibility on somebody else. In all seriousness as I've said before, if you're dealing with someone who's unarmed or just armed with a melee weapon this is why you learn some kind of close quarters/unarmed fighting so you know how to handle yourself without resorting to a gun or you learn the points where a person won't be killed easily if you shoot them so they just get put in hospital.

[Hamuki]

That's life, if you don't take responsibility for your actions then the police are going to do the shooting for you, the same goes for the army and as we've seen they tend to royally fuck things up just as badly as any of us could because they're only human, I personally would much rather take responsibility for my own actions defending myself and know I did my best than push all the blame and responsibility on somebody else.

In all seriousness as I've said before, if you're dealing with someone who's unarmed or just armed with a melee weapon this is why you learn some kind of close quarters/unarmed fighting so you know how to handle yourself without resorting to a gun.

I would rather see the US without weapons.. Or with the military training  required for having a 9mm.

Dont see a need for a rifle. You arent going to snipe the intruder from your stairs to the front door..

[Lethn]

Going by your logic, why do the military and police need rifles to use them on their own citizens then?

[Hamuki]

Going by your logic, why do the military and police need rifles to use them on their own citizens then?

When has a MP5 or M4A1 been used to fire directly on a inocent US citizen?

[NotLambchop]

...
Edit: Holy shit, that was easy - http://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/ - That's 34 cases I have found in 5 seconds where the mass murderers were either on drugs or had stopped taking them, either way that could have easily been the cause, this is something people like you like to ignore quite a bit.

What point are you trying to make?  That more guns in the mix would have prevented these killings from being done?  Don't get me wrong, I love guns, and I would have been one happy little 7th grader if I they let me turn my locker into an armory, but I doubt I would have cut down the number of senseless gun deaths.  Just being honest here.

...Of course, it could be argued that life is too safe to begin with, and the alternative to controlling population growth with guns is even less acceptable (like floods, famine or pestilence), but that's a different argument...

[Lethn]

No my point is it's the drugs that are making the main difference, America is such a different country in general to the ones that people keep comparing them to.

[Hamuki]

No my point is it's the drugs that are making the main difference, America is such a different country in general to the ones that people keep comparing them to.

10k+ people arent being killed by people on drugs.. That is just bullshit..
Some kill because they are jealous.. Some kill from insanity moments that can happen to all people no matter how healthy you are.

And there is so many other reasons.. Drug addicts are not the only reason..

[Lethn]

Yes, economic for one, that's another reason people like to ignore, things are really shit now and so people start getting desperate and angry and I'm not talking about drugs specifically but mental problems, part of which are definitely caused by drug overdoes and a corrupt psychiatric system.

[Spendulus]

Going by your logic, why do the military and police need rifles to use them on their own citizens then?

When has a MP5 or M4A1 been used to fire directly on a inocent US citizen?

Yes, rifles have been used on innocents.  probably most famous example is Kent State killings.

Many others, though.  Example, those associated with "no knock raids" where the police picked the wrong house.

Also a case where a cop on the street shot a man that was misbehaving with an M16.

[Arriemoller]

That's life, if you don't take responsibility for your actions then the police are going to do the shooting for you, the same goes for the army and as we've seen they tend to royally fuck things up just as badly as any of us could because they're only human, I personally would much rather take responsibility for my own actions defending myself and know I did my best than push all the blame and responsibility on somebody else.

In all seriousness as I've said before, if you're dealing with someone who's unarmed or just armed with a melee weapon this is why you learn some kind of close quarters/unarmed fighting so you know how to handle yourself without resorting to a gun.

I would rather see the US without weapons.. Or with the military training  required for having a 9mm.

Dont see a need for a rifle. You arent going to snipe the intruder from your stairs to the front door..

Just a little correction here, since you obviously don't know what you are talking about. Shooting a pistol or revolver (I guess that's what you mean by "a 9 mm" (There are plenty of 9 mm submachine guns)) is very hard, it's hard to hit even at a short distance especially if you are in a situation where you are stressed out. A rifle is much better for accurate shooting in a stressed situation.

[Spendulus]

No my point is it's the drugs that are making the main difference, America is such a different country in general to the ones that people keep comparing them to.

You are correct beyond correct.  When the drug has been correlated with virtually all of these mass murders, then any rational person would have to start asking questions about the drugs.

Instead we are talking to liberals about differences between rifles and pistols.  Totally ridiculous.

[NotLambchop]

No my point is it's the drugs that are making the main difference, America is such a different country in general to the ones that people keep comparing them to.

[Starting with] one out of five American adults is using psychiatric drugs, and assuming that psychoactive drugs neither increase nor decrease the propensity towards gun violence, one out of five gun related crimes would be committed under the influence of psychoactive drugs.  Simple statistics.  

Deregulating guns is unlikely to DEcrease the number of guns in the "wrong" (irresponsible, drug-addled) hands.  So...  What point are you trying to make?
It seems self-evident to me that when no one has access to guns, the crazies, being a subset of everyone, would be left without also.  No more crazies with guns.  If AK-74s are sold in the isle next to Ramen Pride, I'd hazard a guess that crazies would find it easier to keep their personal arsenals stocked, and one should expect more school shooting deaths.  Unless, of course, we start sticking banana clips instead of bananas in little Becky's lunch box and strapping an AK to her back, so'z she could defend herself.

Or are you saying that access to psychiatric drugs must be limited so'z you can leave some brass down at the range?
Still confused...

[Lethn]

[Starting with] one out of five American adults is using psychiatric drugs, and assuming that psychoactive drugs neither increase nor decrease the propensity towards gun violence, one out of five gun related crimes would be committed under the influence of psychoactive drugs.  Simple statistics.   

How about actually citing where you got that information from instead of just being lazy with your arguments? Also what? I have been constantly stating that the mental state of Americans is the cause of all these killings ( particularly the mass killings ) and frankly it's pretty fucking evident whenever you see Americans discussing something in a thread here as well.

[Arriemoller]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

To these numbers you have to add all homeguard guns being kept in private homes, especially in the nordic countries.

[NotLambchop]

[Starting with] one out of five American adults is using psychiatric drugs, and assuming that psychoactive drugs neither increase nor decrease the propensity towards gun violence, one out of five gun related crimes would be committed under the influence of psychoactive drugs.  Simple statistics.  

How about actually citing where you got that information from instead of just being lazy with your arguments? Also what? I have been constantly stating that the mental state of Americans is the cause of all these killings ( particularly the mass killings ) and frankly it's pretty fucking evident whenever you see Americans discussing something in a thread here as well.

How about you adhere to the same strictures you try to impose on others?  The 1/5 statistic was obtained thusly:  Enter "percentage of americans using psychiatric drugs" in google.  Scroll down to first hit that offers a number.  Voila!



Your turn

P.S:  How you managed to get "American" from "AK-74" is beyond me...

[Lethn]

Holy shit! That's actually the first time I've seen somebody post a fraction used in a politically leaned article that actually has a significant amount of backing and proper evidence behind it with a significant amount of people and data involved!

No really, I'm actually glad You shouldn't have picked fox news but I can find better articles on this elsewhere. < been extremely pissed off with the way people use fractions and percentages in their arguments lately

In that case, you're right, it looks like the amount of psychiatric drugs used in your average person is lower, I still maintain that when it comes to the mass shootings which most people cite it's a main cause though but I'll look for more evidence.

[RodeoX]

That's because in other parts of the world we don't use unnecessary amounts of drugs on people claiming they have mental problems.

You cant tell me that every single kill from the 10k+ a year that dies in the US is a psycho on drugs.

If you want to own a gun.. A 9mm pistol then you should have military training to be able to own it.

There is no reason to own a rifle if you arent a hunter.

Certainly psycho killers are a very rare phenomena. Most gun deaths are perpetrated by sane criminals, and mostly to kill other professional criminals. However, I do not see the logic in your idea about who should be able to own a gun. Why should military training be part of the equation? Such training is training to locate and kill the enemy without the burden of laws or thinking. The military trains you to shoot to kill as soon as you see the right shape silhouette. After WW2 the training was perfected until they could get about 80% of soldiers to instinctively shoot before the gravity of their actions sets in. (up from the normal %20). Such training is wholly inappropriate for civilian defense an police work. A better idea would be a required de-programing for anyone who has had military training.

I also don't get why you make an exception for hunting? Why do I have to kill something or be a trained professional killer before I can own a gun?