Argentina, on the verge of a new currency collapse

[rdponticelli]

And if you had mining companies all around your country, blowing

Speaking of mining companies in Argentina: It may be a good idea to mine bitcoins.
How much do you pay for electric power? 

Yes, some of us are mining coins. Electric power was really really cheap until a while back because it was subsidized. Now the subsidies are ending, but I'll surely keep doing it.

[1714501125]

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[1714501125]

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[muyuu]

@majamalu:

Are you Argentine?

Do you think that ANY investment would be ok?

I'm not majamalu and I'm not from Argentina but I do think any investment is ok. The investment in itself cannot do wrong, the same as money itself cannot do wrong. It's plain wrong to mix up criminals and criminal acts from the innocent means they may use.

[rdponticelli]

@majamalu:

Are you Argentine?

Do you think that ANY investment would be ok?

I'm not majamalu and I'm not from Argentina but I do think any investment is ok. The investment in itself cannot do wrong, the same as money itself cannot do wrong. It's plain wrong to mix up criminals and criminal acts from the innocent means they may use.

So if this nice people is investing a ton million WHATEVERUNITOFVALUEYOULIKE$ to setup a beautiful atomic landfill on my backyard, just over my organic farm, where I used to produce everything I needed in a sustainable way, I have to feel happy, take the fucking money and go away to buy some cokes and cellphones. Obviously, because any investment is essentially good and there's nothing better than money...

[majamalu]

And concerning the foreign investment that should balance the current account when you open your economy, the problem with it is that most of those investments are only after big and fast profits, and they usually give a damn about the long term welfare of the target economy. If they can take a quick and big profit by destroying the economy, they will do so, and they has historically done it. All colonialism has being (and still is) nothing but examples of this point... And we, colonized countries, live with it everyday.

This is why Argentina is such a disaster. Most of the people think (like you) that investment equals invasion, and that government intervention (violence) is a legitimate way to solve problems.

The state can not solve problems; the state IS the problem (no one taught you this at school precisely because it is true).

As for the situation here, the worst part of the cycle is just beginning. I think it will take a lot of blood before things start to improve, but this is perfectly predictable: collapse -> privatization -> stability, growth -> state expansion -> collapse. Like everywhere else, but with greater intensity and frequency.

Please, don't put words in my mouth. If you read the whole thread you'll see what I think about government:

The profound and unfair distribution of wealth and power which we (as in all humanity) are trailing since almost forever is the big problem here. Imperial governments imposing terms on smaller governments. Small governments imposing terms on even smaller governments, and so on until we found ridiculously minuscule governments (of which fatherhood patriarchy may be the smaller unit) imposing terms on people, turning everybody into semiconscious slaves serving foreign interests for ever...

Time to invade the Falklands again to distract the populace!

Coming from a US citizen I know....   Pot. Kettle.  Black.  

Yes, as almost every other government out there, our history has being full of crazy and stupid people... Maybe central governments in themselves are craziness in itself...

And if you had mining companies all around your country, blowing up every mountain, enslaving people, throwing away tons of clean water, and contaminating everything with cyanide you may give a second thought about some investments. Governments are shit, but greedy companies are just a private form of government, even shittier than public governments. And sadly both (government and private companies) are on the same side of the coin. We, most people, are on the other side. All alone.

Edit:

@majamalu:

Are you Argentine?

Do you think that ANY investment would be ok?

Yes I am.

An investment is ok as long as it doesn't involve coercion. In the case of mining companies, they do not make the rules; they play by rules imposed by the State. The reason why mining companies can take profit from the destruction of a particular environment, and get away with it, is that the government offers them its monopoly on the use of force. Corporations are consequences, not causes, of state intervention.

The worst thing is that, under this system, justice is not even possible, since what we call "public space" is just the place in which property rights are not defined. Thanks to your government, mining companies don't need to negotiate with you or your insurance company (or whoever could be affected by potential damages, and even might not be interested in negotiating with the mining company): it's easier and cheaper for them to just ally with the government against you (the locals). You (the locals) are a mere nuisance, wich can be removed by the police (that is, by the State).

[muyuu]

So if this nice people is investing a ton million WHATEVERUNITOFVALUEYOULIKE$ to setup a beautiful atomic landfill on my backyard, just over my organic farm, where I used to produce everything I needed in a sustainable way, I have to feel happy, take the fucking money and go away to buy some cokes and cellphones. Obviously, because any investment is essentially good and there's nothing better than money...

Yes it is. The problem there is not investing a ton of money, but setting up an atomic landfill without legitimate permission from all parts affected.

[rdponticelli]

And concerning the foreign investment that should balance the current account when you open your economy, the problem with it is that most of those investments are only after big and fast profits, and they usually give a damn about the long term welfare of the target economy. If they can take a quick and big profit by destroying the economy, they will do so, and they has historically done it. All colonialism has being (and still is) nothing but examples of this point... And we, colonized countries, live with it everyday.

This is why Argentina is such a disaster. Most of the people think (like you) that investment equals invasion, and that government intervention (violence) is a legitimate way to solve problems.

The state can not solve problems; the state IS the problem (no one taught you this at school precisely because it is true).

As for the situation here, the worst part of the cycle is just beginning. I think it will take a lot of blood before things start to improve, but this is perfectly predictable: collapse -> privatization -> stability, growth -> state expansion -> collapse. Like everywhere else, but with greater intensity and frequency.

Please, don't put words in my mouth. If you read the whole thread you'll see what I think about government:

The profound and unfair distribution of wealth and power which we (as in all humanity) are trailing since almost forever is the big problem here. Imperial governments imposing terms on smaller governments. Small governments imposing terms on even smaller governments, and so on until we found ridiculously minuscule governments (of which fatherhood patriarchy may be the smaller unit) imposing terms on people, turning everybody into semiconscious slaves serving foreign interests for ever...

Time to invade the Falklands again to distract the populace!

Coming from a US citizen I know....   Pot. Kettle.  Black. 

Yes, as almost every other government out there, our history has being full of crazy and stupid people... Maybe central governments in themselves are craziness in itself...

And if you had mining companies all around your country, blowing up every mountain, enslaving people, throwing away tons of clean water, and contaminating everything with cyanide you may give a second thought about some investments. Governments are shit, but greedy companies are just a private form of government, even shittier than public governments. And sadly both (government and private companies) are on the same side of the coin. We, most people, are on the other side. All alone.

Edit:

@majamalu:

Are you Argentine?

Do you think that ANY investment would be ok?

Yes I am.

An investment is ok as long as it doesn't involve coercion. In the case of mining companies, they do not make the rules; they play by rules imposed by the State. The reason why mining companies can take profit from the destruction of a particular environment, and get away with it, is that the government offers them its monopoly on the use of force. Corporations are consequences, not causes, of state intervention.

The worst thing is that, under this system, justice is not even possible, since what we call "public space" is just the place in which property rights are not defined. Thanks to your government, mining companies don't need to negotiate with you or your insurance company (or whoever could be affected by potential damages, and even might not be interested in negotiating with the mining company): it's easier and cheaper for them to just ally with the government against you (the locals). You (the locals) are a mere nuisance, wich can be removed by the police (that is, by the State).

Even if it doesn't involve coercion, an investment could be just bad. See below. I agree plainly with everything else you said.

So if this nice people is investing a ton million WHATEVERUNITOFVALUEYOULIKE$ to setup a beautiful atomic landfill on my backyard, just over my organic farm, where I used to produce everything I needed in a sustainable way, I have to feel happy, take the fucking money and go away to buy some cokes and cellphones. Obviously, because any investment is essentially good and there's nothing better than money...

Yes it is. The problem there is not investing a ton of money, but setting up an atomic landfill without legitimate permission from all parts affected.

I'm pretty sure that every part affected happily agreed that it was a brilliant idea setting up a nuclear plant on Fukushima. See how it went.

Money is a powerful tool. Maybe the most powerful tool ever created by men. That's why managing it involves such a big responsibility. Sadly, most money today is managed by greedy and selfish people who are investing most of it in producing a world as greedy and selfish as themselves. Bitcoin is a huge opportunity for changing this a little. I hope we, bitcoiners, would be up to it.

[muyuu]

I'm pretty sure that every part affected happily agreed that it was a brilliant idea setting up a nuclear plant on Fukushima. See how it went.

That has nothing to do with investing money.

[rdponticelli]

I'm pretty sure that every part affected happily agreed that it was a brilliant idea setting up a nuclear plant on Fukushima. See how it went.

That has nothing to do with investing money.

Somebody invested money to build the nuclear plants. Would you call it a clever investment?

[majamalu]

I'm pretty sure that every part affected happily agreed that it was a brilliant idea setting up a nuclear plant on Fukushima. See how it went.

Again: what parts? Without property rights, it is not possible to represent every part affected. In the case of Fukushima - as with many other nuclear plants around the world - the State signed on behalf of all potential victims (otherwise, the risk would not have justified the investment for the company.) Under a statist system, those who benefit most are not held liable.

[muyuu]

I'm pretty sure that every part affected happily agreed that it was a brilliant idea setting up a nuclear plant on Fukushima. See how it went.

That has nothing to do with investing money.

Somebody invested money to build the nuclear plants. Would you call it a clever investment?

Didn't turn out well for any of the parts involved long term. All investment involves risk.

Again, what's bad about investing in itself? in this case, it's a state-controlled operation. Had it been modernised it would have been a perfectly good investment. Notice the distinction between a particular investment being good or bad, or the very concept of investment being good or bad. These adjectives simply don't apply to investment as a concept.

A good way to prevent all risk in investment is to ban it all. This also ensures ruination.

[muyuu]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/9201039/Argentina-poised-to-seize-Repsol-assets-endangering-shale-dream.html

Argentina poised to seize Repsol assets, endangering shale dream

Argentina was poised on Thursday night to launch the forced takeover of assets from the Spanish energy group Repsol, risking a diplomatic showdown with Spain and scaring investors needed to unlock the country's vast shale gas reserves.

Spain's industry minister Manuel Soria said Madrid would not stand idly by if Spanish companies are attacked. "If there are hostile moves towards those interests anywhere in the world, the government will interpret them as hostile moves against Spain. These acts of hostility will have consequences."
The clash came as Argentina's leader Cristina Fernandez prepared a TV address to announce the fate of YPF, the Argentine oil group controlled by Repsol. Argentina's press said President Fernandez plans to seize YPF on "public interest" grounds, invoking the country's hydro-carbon law to gain majority control. She has been tightening the noose on Repsol over recent months by withdrawing operating licences, accusing Repsol of failure to invest adequately in its Argentine operations. The company denies the claim.
Neil Shearing from Capital Economics said the move is naked "resource nationalism", akin to seizures by Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. "The recent history of these episodes in Latin America is that there are few happy endings. It points to wider problems in the Argentine economy: there is a balance of payments deficit but almost nobody will lend the goverment any money, so they are grabbing foreign currency wherever they can," he said.
Repsol owns 53pc of YPF shares. The government is expected to force Repsol to sell at deflated market prices, reflecting a fall of 37pc since January – presenting the takeover as a public-private venture.
The move is risky for a nation that is not yet rehabilitated after the world's biggest default in 2002. Argentina needs investment of $25bn ($15.7bn) a year and foreign know-how to develop its deep-sea oil fields and tap its Vaca Muerta shale gas reserves, the world's second biggest after China. The country has already raised eyebrows by revoking licences for YPF and Petrobras, and capping payments to oil companies at $42 a barrel.

[rdponticelli]

You can add this too:

http://thefaintofheart.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/this-is-what-happens-when-the-president-controls-the-central-bank-good-for-a-big-laugh-before-argentina-becomes-the-next-zimbabwe/

And a lot of other things alike from everywhere... As in the 89, the big fishes are fighting for the power, and mostly poor and common people is going to leave their blood in the streets...

[MoneyIsDebt]

Interesting thread - if it could get back on topic.
I'm curious. How exactly could bitcoin help here? How would one even get enough bitcoins into circulation (in Argentina) to make any difference?

[Realpra]

Of course all investments are not OK...

Money should not guide you, but REAL resources and your philosophical goals.

[rdponticelli]

Interesting thread - if it could get back on topic.
I'm curious. How exactly could bitcoin help here? How would one even get enough bitcoins into circulation (in Argentina) to make any difference?

Bitcoin can help here, as everywhere, by providing a more stable measure of value, and breaking dependencies on centralized institutions (Central Banks, IMF, WB). It doesn't really matters how many bitcoins would be in circulation at the beginning, the extremely divisible nature of bitcoin would make it adaptable. Anyway, they're some miners here, and they're people buying bitcoins, so the supply has already begun.

Of course all investments are not OK...

Money should not guide you, but REAL resources and your philosophical goals.

I agree absolutely.

[MoneyIsDebt]

It doesn't really matters how many bitcoins would be in circulation at the beginning, the extremely divisible nature of bitcoin would make it adaptable.

I don't understand this argument about divisibilty. If fractions of a bitcoin are nearly worthless, then they're not going to be a good substitute for money, are they?
If I want to replace the local currency - and I somehow was able to convince my employer to pay me in bitcoin, and my landlord and grocer to accept bitcoins - I'd still need to pay the grocer enough bitcoins to equal the value of the bread he's selling.  I can't simply divide it and pay him 0.00001 btc just because I don't have more. I also wouldn't work for 0.001 bitcoins a month.

Besides, the bitcoin client doesn't (currently) allow such small payments - it refuses with an error message.

[gusti]

It doesn't really matters how many bitcoins would be in circulation at the beginning, the extremely divisible nature of bitcoin would make it adaptable.

I don't understand this argument about divisibilty. If fractions of a bitcoin are nearly worthless, then they're not going to be a good substitute for money, are they?
If I want to replace the local currency - and I somehow was able to convince my employer to pay me in bitcoin, and my landlord and grocer to accept bitcoins - I'd still need to pay the grocer enough bitcoins to equal the value of the bread he's selling.  I can't simply divide it and pay him 0.00001 btc just because I don't have more. I also wouldn't work for 0.001 bitcoins a month.

Besides, the bitcoin client doesn't (currently) allow such small payments - it refuses with an error message.

0.000 000 01 btc = 1 satoshi
In the future, if 1 btc = 1 million dollars, then 1 satoshi will be 1 cent usd.
Clients can be easily modified to manage satoshis.

[MoneyIsDebt]

In the future, if 1 btc = 1 million dollars, then 1 satoshi will be 1 cent usd.

So you're saying, it's not going to be much help to Argentina now, but it could be in the future, if the price goes up a lot?
Seems to me, at a million dollars pr btc, it'll be a toy for the very rich, not something that can help the people being screwed over in Argentina right now.

Gold is also very divisible, down to the atom in fact. And also very valuable, and scarce, just as bitcoin is/will be. You don't see poor people trading with gold though.

I do appreciate bitcoins, but I just don't see how it can help out in this kind of situation. Sure would like to be enlightened though.

[gusti]

In the future, if 1 btc = 1 million dollars, then 1 satoshi will be 1 cent usd.

So you're saying, it's not going to be much help to Argentina now, but it could be in the future, if the price goes up a lot?
Seems to me, at a million dollars pr btc, it'll be a toy for the very rich, not something that can help the people being screwed over in Argentina right now.

Gold is also very divisible, down to the atom in fact. And also very valuable, and scarce, just as bitcoin is/will be. You don't see poor people trading with gold though.

I do appreciate bitcoins, but I just don't see how it can help out in this kind of situation. Sure would like to be enlightened though.

Only answered your question about divisibility, and how you can use 0.00000001 btc in the future.
Don´t know if it applies to Argentina or any other country.

[vite]

Argentina should default. Declare bankrupcy.
Once Argentina gets pressured to start paying back, they should declare bankruptcy.
Then declare that if they pay back now, then they will bring pain and suffering to their people and incur in human rights violations.

Since their econ is already shrinking the domino effect of defaulting wont be felt.
Take the opportunity to develop the economy, by not increasing the tax burden on local biz and freeing the import export, also develop the service sector so that their main resource is untangible, so no mineral goods are fleeing...

I mean Iceland sorta did something like that and it seems to have worked for them. Greece in the 1930's did something similar and then they decided to listen to the West again...