Suicide tourism?

[umair127]

For people like me, we can have great suicides of the past, "Open your veins like Petronius Arbiter" or "stick your head in the oven like Sylvia Plath" or "Shoot yourself like Ernest Hemingway", complete with the actual setting in which it took place so you get the real sense of it all. Or, at least, your survivors do! I'd love to go out like Petronius!

Socrates for me.  Had almost identical thought yesterday, and in fact wrote words below to Titan, who'd said that if legalized, procedure should be reasonably priced - but was on way somewhere, and didn't post:

When and if the 'procedure' becomes normalized and commonplace I'm sure there'll be market options, from low budget "Dr. Kevorkian special" to elaborate arrangements.  For those who've always fantasized a heroic or spectacular demise, the ultra wealthy could opt for the "Thelma and Louise," "Gunfight at OK Corral" or other staged setting - they'd be premedicated to blissful state prior to final glorious moments.  Copy in brochures would tout these deluxe packages as ‘for those who want to go out with a bang and not a whimper’.

[zolace]

"Suicide tourism" is a very wrong name of the whole concept.
If you haven't seen with your eyes what a cancer disease can do, than maybe that's the right term. These people are in immense physical pain, so choosing to die with dignity is the best someone can let them do, since they have already lost control over their bodies and obviously - the battle with cancer.

If I was dying of a painful disease, like cancer, I would ask for whatever got rid of the pain and take in as much as I needed, whether it killed me or not.  I don't want to be in pain at the end of my life.  I want to die in bliss.

.....for me it wouldn't be so much the pain that I wanted to escape, but I would absolutely hate to become a burden on my family. The minute I could not take care of myself...my life would not be worth living. Life is not wasting away in a bed...not mine anyway.

With all due respect, suicide is not altruistic and doing it will leave your family with a huge burden anyway.  Ask anyone who has lost a loved one that way.   It does not communicate "you spared me"...it communicates "I'll rather die than be with you".  Still, you can do it yourself quite easily if you really feel you must...why must the larger society embrace it?   

[noviapriani]

I realize not everyone has what it takes to do what my friend did, and I can't honestly say I do...but I WANT to be like him, so do hundreds of folks who watched him, and yes, IMO, that is the culture I want to live in.  One that values REAL courage, and REAL compassion, and REAL life, all of which I think are turned upside down in state sanctioned murder.

You are the one manipulating the meaning of words to try to advance your argument. It is not murder. It is not euthanasia. The person wanting to die is the person who does the killing in assisted suicide. The doctor or other person merely provides the pill or other means by which the person may kill himself. The main benefit in this is that someone with a hopeless disease or condition can DELAY killing himself past the point where he could do it all by himself. The assisted suicide laws actually prolong his life. Now tell me what is wrong with that. Tell me, do you really want to have a law that prevents a person who wants to die via assisted suicide from doing so? What gives you, or even the majority of voters, the right to deny him that choice?

[umair127]

Gallows humor, by the way.  It's a serious subject but a person, if already down, could spiral into depression if it weren't leavened.  

[umair127]

I realize not everyone has what it takes to do what my friend did, and I can't honestly say I do...but I WANT to be like him, so do hundreds of folks who watched him, and yes, IMO, that is the culture I want to live in.  One that values REAL courage, and REAL compassion, and REAL life, all of which I think are turned upside down in state sanctioned murder.

You are the one manipulating the meaning of words to try to advance your argument. It is not murder. It is not euthanasia. The person wanting to die is the person who does the killing in assisted suicide. The doctor or other person merely provides the pill or other means by which the person may kill himself. The main benefit in this is that someone with a hopeless disease or condition can DELAY killing himself past the point where he could do it all by himself. The assisted suicide laws actually prolong his life. Now tell me what is wrong with that. Tell me, do you really want to have a law that prevents a person who wants to die via assisted suicide from doing so? What gives you, or even the majority of voters, the right to deny him that choice?

Talking about manipulating the meaning of words. You cannot inject yourself with sodium pentobarbital and if you were capable enough to take a pill or inject yourself, you could find lethal substances or other means without a doctor.

[noviapriani]

I realize not everyone has what it takes to do what my friend did, and I can't honestly say I do...but I WANT to be like him, so do hundreds of folks who watched him, and yes, IMO, that is the culture I want to live in.  One that values REAL courage, and REAL compassion, and REAL life, all of which I think are turned upside down in state sanctioned murder.

You are the one manipulating the meaning of words to try to advance your argument. It is not murder. It is not euthanasia. The person wanting to die is the person who does the killing in assisted suicide. The doctor or other person merely provides the pill or other means by which the person may kill himself. The main benefit in this is that someone with a hopeless disease or condition can DELAY killing himself past the point where he could do it all by himself. The assisted suicide laws actually prolong his life. Now tell me what is wrong with that. Tell me, do you really want to have a law that prevents a person who wants to die via assisted suicide from doing so? What gives you, or even the majority of voters, the right to deny him that choice?

Talking about manipulating the meaning of words. You cannot inject yourself with sodium pentobarbital and if you were capable enough to take a pill or inject yourself, you could find lethal substances or other means without a doctor.

So, someone who barely has the ability to bring his fingers to his mouth must also always have the ability to get out of bed? Absurd. FYI, the person assisting sets everything up, and the person only has to do what he is able to do, such as press a button. It is the person's decision to proceed or not.

[umair127]

The main benefit in this is that someone with a hopeless disease or condition can DELAY killing himself past the point where he could do it all by himself. The assisted suicide laws actually prolong his life.

No, the main benefit is a doctor does your dirty work, with the approval of the village to validate you taking the easier way out FOR YOU, but not those you leave behind.

[noviapriani]

The main benefit in this is that someone with a hopeless disease or condition can DELAY killing himself past the point where he could do it all by himself. The assisted suicide laws actually prolong his life.

No, the main benefit is a doctor does your dirty work, with the approval of the village to validate you taking the easier way out FOR YOU, but not those you leave behind.

Does your dirty work? What the hell is dirty about wanting to end one's OWN suffering? Approval of the village??? I would not give a damn about approval of the village if I wanted a mercy suicide. Easy way out?? Easy? Oh yeah, killing yourself, or dying slowly from horrible natural causes should not be easy, but rather should be the hard way out, huh?!! Are you at all trying to be objective about this? It sounds religion-driven to me, and that is fine for yourself if that is what you want, but you have no right to impose that upon me.

[noviapriani]

I see. So you and yours get to decide how I die simply because you have the majority vote? Majority votes supercede any personal rights, or just the right to die as one chooses to? That sounds awfully risky to me when you might someday not be in the majority. I suspect then you'd scream to the world about how no one else should decide how and when you die. How about we ban all use of any painkiller, even on a deathbed, that to ANY degree will hasten one's death? Is that fine with you, so I could not take the "easy way" out? FYI, drugs like morphine already are commonly used in every state for what amounts to doctor assisted suicide at the end stages of cancer, etc. So it still amounts to suicide, but unfortunately only after the person has had to endure great suffering that could have been avoided if our laws gave better protection to the doctors.

[zolace]

I see. So you and yours get to decide how I die simply because you have the majority vote? Majority votes supercede any personal rights, or just the right to die as one chooses to? That sounds awfully risky to me when you might someday not be in the majority. I suspect then you'd scream to the world about how no one else should decide how and when you die. How about we ban all use of any painkiller, even on a deathbed, that to ANY degree will hasten one's death? Is that fine with you, so I could not take the "easy way" out? FYI, drugs like morphine already are commonly used in every state for what amounts to doctor assisted suicide at the end stages of cancer, etc. So it still amounts to suicide, but unfortunately only after the person has had to endure great suffering that could have been avoided if our laws gave better protection to the doctors.

if you have ever worked in or visited an assisted living facility, you'd see that there is very little "living." I can fully understand and appreciate the desire to end that torture. Our society should give those suffering, like Robin Williams, a more dignified way out. 

"It does not communicate "you spared me"...it communicates "I'll rather die than be with you".

There is no "being with you" when in a vegetative state.

[umair127]

Most major religions and large denoms of our majority Christian population support their respective version of the sanctity of life, the exceptions are those which are heavily based or influenced by humanist tenets. It doesn't always follow that what the individual or majority of religions believe is immoral should be reflected in law....I don't ascribe to that view because there are lots of things which the government has no compelling interest to prevent heathens from doing if they are only harming themselves or other consenting adults.  If someone wants to kill themselves, I wouldn't stand on "moral principle" to make that illegal per se because once they are dead, what in the world can you do to them that would matter?    But the problem with suicide is that if it is not made illegal, then you have no authority to try to stop someone in process and get them help.  Furthermore, assisted suicide (another euphemism) is not just the person offing themselves, it is the sanctioning of a government authorized doctor to kill you with your permission.   So setting aside the morality,  how do we logically reconcile that we need to keep suicide illegal so we can intervene to stop someone who wants to do it themselves with making suicide legal as long as it is someone else killing you after you beg for permission from Big Brother?  That is about the screwiest justification of a "personal right" there is, not to mention compassion.

Very well stated. I'd only add that I lived with my mom while she died of lung cancer a few years ago. Nothing very gracious
about it, but it did give us six months to discover two people neither of us knew existed before that.

I really appreciate you sharing that, and that kind of experience is one of the immeasurable losses of assisted suicide.

[sana8410]

I see. So you and yours get to decide how I die simply because you have the majority vote? Majority votes supercede any personal rights, or just the right to die as one chooses to? That sounds awfully risky to me when you might someday not be in the majority. I suspect then you'd scream to the world about how no one else should decide how and when you die. How about we ban all use of any painkiller, even on a deathbed, that to ANY degree will hasten one's death? Is that fine with you, so I could not take the "easy way" out? FYI, drugs like morphine already are commonly used in every state for what amounts to doctor assisted suicide at the end stages of cancer, etc. So it still amounts to suicide, but unfortunately only after the person has had to endure great suffering that could have been avoided if our laws gave better protection to the doctors.

if you have ever worked in or visited an assisted living facility, you'd see that there is very little "living." I can fully understand and appreciate the desire to end that torture. Our society should give those suffering, like Robin Williams, a more dignified way out. 

"It does not communicate "you spared me"...it communicates "I'll rather die than be with you".

There is no "being with you" when in a vegetative state.

So much depends on the circumstances of the impending death or final illness and the state of mind and body of the person affected.     A protracted demise, suffering intractable pain while conscious and aware is the antithesis of dying with dignity for many; so they choose to go out on their own terms - i.e. with dignity - while still capable of choosing.   Making a distinction here between a simple decline in faculties (an 'easing out' as it were), and perhaps the more awful ways to go; ALS for example.  I think suicide (self-euthanasia) could be seen as a courageous choice in some cases; actually with compassion for the person's caretakers and loved ones.  I for one won't judge them, but lean to making it legal, but strictly regulated as I believe it is in Oregon.

[zolace]

Here is a transcript of a FRONTLINE program, from 2012 I think, that includes non-physicians assisting in some way, often just with information to avoid being prosecuted as a criminal.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/social-issues/suicide-plan/transcript-33/


Here is a 2010 FRONTLINE  show "Suicide Tourist". Thankfully, American states are starting to come around and put common sense and individual rights above the religious dogma of people wanting to control the lives of others by imposing their religious views upon them.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/suicidetourist/view/

[sana8410]

Here is a transcript of a FRONTLINE program, from 2012 I think, that includes non-physicians assisting in some way, often just with information to avoid being prosecuted as a criminal.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/social-issues/suicide-plan/transcript-33/


Here is a 2010 FRONTLINE  show "Suicide Tourist". Thankfully, American states are starting to come around and put common sense and individual rights above the religious dogma of people wanting to control the lives of others by imposing their religious views upon them.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/suicidetourist/view/

fun, I watched that in its entirety when it came out.   Very powerful and thought provoking.     I think anyone interested in the subject, and why wouldn't we be, would benefit from watching it.  Actually we know why; our own mortality is a taboo subject for many.

[Hash Master]

"Suicide tourism" is a very wrong name of the whole concept.
If you haven't seen with your eyes what a cancer disease can do, than maybe that's the right term. These people are in immense physical pain, so choosing to die with dignity is the best someone can let them do, since they have already lost control over their bodies and obviously - the battle with cancer.

If I was dying of a painful disease, like cancer, I would ask for whatever got rid of the pain and take in as much as I needed, whether it killed me or not.  I don't want to be in pain at the end of my life.  I want to die in bliss.

.....for me it wouldn't be so much the pain that I wanted to escape, but I would absolutely hate to become a burden on my family. The minute I could not take care of myself...my life would not be worth living. Life is not wasting away in a bed...not mine anyway.

With all due respect, suicide is not altruistic and doing it will leave your family with a huge burden anyway.  Ask anyone who has lost a loved one that way.   It does not communicate "you spared me"...it communicates "I'll rather die than be with you".  Still, you can do it yourself quite easily if you really feel you must...why must the larger society embrace it?   

Doing it yourself is no better than dying in pain. If you kill yourself in the comfort of your own home, you are automatically inflicting a huge damage on your family's psyche. Like "hi honey, sorry you're finding me like this, but the society thinks its weird to travel to Switzerland just to kill myself. i left you some money for therapy sessions, since you will certainly develop PTSD after finding my cold dead body in our bedroom". Like... It's sad. Doing it the "legal" way is actually saving the damages that will be caused the other way.

And talking about being a burden, it might not be a burden for the ones that are taking care of the ill person, but he/she will surely feel that way. You don't want to leave this world feeling guilty that you're keeping you family stuck in that situation. You're dying anyway, the best thing to do is convince your family to move on.

We all have our opinions. I don't know what would I do if I ever find myself in a similar situation. I guess it takes balls to take the decision to end your life whether alone or with a bit of help. Either way, it's the sad reality we live in.