[ANN] A public company will build a huge Bitcoin Mining Operation (ASIC).

[bulanula]

If you succeed, you will make a lot of people lose a lot of money.

I know. They, however, will not be able to claim that they have not received a fair and advance warning.

Vladimir, you are my hero! How do I invest? Fuck, if I can't invest, then how can I donate?

I think this will lead to the end of bitcoin and the rise of a new cryptocurrency. However, if bitcoin survives, then it will be up to you to make it successful, Vladimir.
I hope you try to fund other lines of business that will create uses for bitcoin with your profits.

Why so much anti-BTC slant in your posts, canicula

The current system is perfect; there is nothing to be improved on.

I don't see why the hate ...

[1714131615]

1714131615

[Raize]

If you succeed, you will make a lot of people lose a lot of money.

I know. They, however, will not be able to claim that they have not received a fair and advance warning.

This is the fun part about what Vladamir is doing. If he succeeds, he corners the market and miners are out of their money and Bitcoin rises because scarcity is concentrated to his company only. If he fails, miners don't have crap to worry about.

With the sheer amount of money you need Vladamir, pray tell what is the answer to this question:
Why should I invest in you when I can just buy Bitcoin and reap the benefits myself when you've got the market on future coin cornered?

Anyone that doesn't see that it'll be far easier to just buy coin and get immediate benefits than have to deal with the overhead of Vladamir's operation and setup time is being foolish or just ignorant of market forces.

Then again, we could invest half in BTC and half in Vlad and probably make do, but I imagine the price will rise faster than Vlad can set up his operation.

Also, keep in mind he's very short on details. No megahash/joule estimates, no indication aside from "contact me if you want to spend money". He's still trying to confirm that there is investment interest.

[jamesg]

With the sheer amount of money you need Vladamir, pray tell what is the answer to this question:
Why should I invest in you when I can just buy Bitcoin and reap the benefits myself when you've got the market on future coin cornered?

Vladimir is going to have to provide some good answers to start finding the kind of funds he needs. And I'm sure there others looking at this and wondering why they can't do the same.

[Littleshop]

If you succeed, you will make a lot of people lose a lot of money.

I know. They, however, will not be able to claim that they have not received a fair and advance warning.

Vlad's project in my discussion will be called P51 (project 51%)

If bitcoin hovers around $5 (before project P51 is powered up) there are four outcomes:

1) P51 achieves 51%, destroys confidence in bitcoin and the price of bitcoin drops to the point where P51 investors lose money, bitcoin is dead

2) P51 takes money and fails to complete for any number of reasons, P51 investors lose money

3) P51 dances at 40% share, keeps confidence in bitcoin but investors lose money because 40% of mining revenue is not enough to make investors profit, P51 investors lose money but not all of it, bitcoin survives

4) P51 gets going and achieves growing share, community striving to keep bitcoin decentralized switches protocol so P51 ASIC is dead in the water, P51 investors lose money

If BTC rises to the point where 40% is enough to make P51 investors a profit or if P51 costs are low enough,IT IS A SUCCESS so long as P51 does not actually turn into 51%.  Investors could have purchased BTC now instead and reaped similar profits with less risk.  

[bulanula]

After thinking more about this, I think he is trolling us all.

ASIC project in Bitcoin is not viable for at least 2 years.

I cannot see anybody that will be stupid enough to invest into this fallacy ...

[jamesg]

After thinking more about this, I think he is trolling us all.

ASIC project in Bitcoin is not viable for at least 2 years.

I cannot see anybody that will be stupid enough to invest into this fallacy ...

7-9 months. Maybe sooner.

[triplehelix]

vlad, could you please address two questions i had earlier in the thread?

if you are in advanced stages of testing, why is the performance estimate so large (100 to 1000 times more efficient than a gpu is the actual range quoted)?

and more importantly:

what protections do investors have that their funds won't be used to subsidize the R&D, only to have the principles of the company accumulate personal mining hardware on the cheap, after investors have paid for the high entrance barrier to ASIC development?

also, when will official investment material become available for mailing out?

[disclaimer201]

If you succeed, you will make a lot of people lose a lot of money.

I know. They, however, will not be able to claim that they have not received a fair and advance warning.

Very witty, indeed!

You know what I think you are doing is not making an announcement but making a threat. ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_Uncertainty_and_Doubt ) It is precisely defined by "an individual or firm making use of FUD to invite unfavorable opinions and speculation about a competitor's product; to increase the general estimation of switching costs among current customers; or to maintain leverage over a current business partner who could potentially become a rival."

So, what are the actual reasons for your "announcement"?

[Vladimir]

[investment advice skipped]
1) [investment advice skipped]
2) [investment advice skipped]
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4) [investment advice skipped]
[investment advice skipped]

Unfortunately, unlike you, I am not qualified to provide investment advice and I do not provide investment advice to the public. Therefore I am not in position to respond.

[RaggedMonk]

Vladimir - Are you and your associates willing to mine at above 51%?  Do you plan on maximizing profit or would you take measures to ensure confidence in the integrity of the network?

[wogaut]

If they are telling the truth, well...  is it time to start an orphanage? Blocks from the 49% are going to need a home.

Why? Isn't the difficulty (and hence the network share) calculated from the valid block rate only?

As long as you play by their fricking rules then, your 49% of blocks are still valid, like is receiving money from the mob or the fed.

[triplehelix]

With the sheer amount of money you need Vladamir, pray tell what is the answer to this question:
Why should I invest in you when I can just buy Bitcoin and reap the benefits myself when you've got the market on future coin cornered?

Vladimir is going to have to provide some good answers to start finding the kind of funds he needs. And I'm sure there others looking at this and wondering why they can't do the same.

That guy is clearly an idiot. What about the other 8 million bitcoin out there on the market? What is there to corner? Vlad doesn't need to answer anyone. Least of all the half-wits that make up 95% of forum readers. All I need to know is where to deposit my funds to get them to Vladimir.

a principle of the company making an official announcement, doesn't have any fiduciary responsibility to answer questions from potential investors?

and if you are ready to send funds at this point, knowing nothing about the company,  its articles of incorporation, the business model, the technology behind the company, what your investment will get you, etc. then i think you should reevaluate who is the idiot.

[Vladimir]

Vladimir - Are you and your associates willing to mine at above 51%?  Do you plan on maximizing profit or would you take measures to ensure confidence in the integrity of the network?

I have no reason to believe that we will ever be able to reach anywhere close to 50%. Even if we reach such capability (which is highly unlikely) it would be very unwise move for more than one reason.

Just check old ArtForz's posts on the matter (right about the time when he killed CPU miners, FPGA miners - take notice). It was discussed at length back then.

1. It makes no sense to have more than 50% and keep rising hashing capacity while being honest. Your machines will be simply driving difficulty up and competing with each other. Easier and cheaper to shut some down.

2. It makes no sense to have more than 50% and be dishonest as well for a variety of reasons, including ethical, public relations, investor relations, legal, long term profit.

You people give not enough credit to Bitcoin's design. It is much deeper than many get it.

My goal it so build a Bitcoin mining company that will be sustainable long term and that will continue ongoing investment into new technologies and new mining capacity, get listed, get optionable. I just cannot wait a moment when I can sell naked puts and roll them perpetually (if allowed by law, damn insider trading thing).

It will be not so much a technological company but a financial one, more specifically an asset management company. There are plenty of examples in non-bitcoin world of companies that are being managed by a handful of professionals but have billions under management. Just check out biz models of companies like AYR and most REIT's and specifically O (my favourite, if I can I want to emulate their biz model, specifically stable monthly dividend and lack of leverage).

I respectfully suggest that many people here got it all wrong. This is not about killing Bitcoin and getting into 51% territory. Ask yourself why the hell would we want to become #1 target of guys with badges and guns? It is all about becoming the Bitcoin REIT and eventually being traded alongside of my darling O (Realty Income Corp. NYSE). My best estimate is that we will climb to 25-30% for a short period of time if we are lucky, just as I have done with GPU's at one point. History tends to repeat itself. I bet on it.

The FUD is being generated in this thread not by me, but perhaps by those who overextended themselves (we know who you are, lol) by buying FPGA's and now they are trying to pass their own fear to you. (do refer to my signature for legal disclaimer).

[kjj]

GPUs are already produced in pretty much top of the line fabs.  These custom ASICs will certainly not beat them in feature size or clock speed.  So, where is the waste that will be cut to achieve 100x or 1000x improvements?  Surely the PCIe interface and cache don't account for 99% to 99.9% of the real estate of the GPUs we use now.  Is there enough cruft in the ALUs that can be cut?

[wogaut]

If they are telling the truth, well...  is it time to start an orphanage? Blocks from the 49% are going to need a home.

Why? Isn't the difficulty (and hence the network share) calculated from the valid block rate only?

As long as you play by their fricking rules then, your 49% of blocks are still valid, like is receiving money from the mob or the fed.

I'm just making a joke. Vlad will only build off his own blocks. Everyone else will not be able to mine a single valid block. They will just make worthless orphans... Thus the need for an orphanage.

That was exactly the point of my question and again, afaik (and please educate me if that's wrong) orphans are not included into the block rate calculations, so the remaining 49% of valid and verified blocks produced will not all orphans. Of course I agree there will be a lot of orphans and mining efficiency of regular miners will suffer in the process.
If they all were orphans, a 51% miner had effectively 100%.

Sorry Vladimir, this was slightly off-topic, considering your latest reply.

[tvbcof]

...

Why should I invest in you when I can just buy Bitcoin and reap the benefits myself when you've got the market on future coin cornered?

...

That was the same question I asked 3/4 ago when I considered mining.  Seemed to me that the money was better spent just hoarding BTC.  If Bitcoin takes off big-time, the hoard would be bigger than even a huge miner could generate.  If it did not then my mining gear would be an albatross, and probably obsoleted fairly quickly in either situation.

There was also a factor of wanting to support Bitcoin on philosophical grounds.  I considered that soaking up liquidity by hoarding during the high inflation period was as good a way to do that, and since there was no eminent threat of a 51% attack by adversaries, there was already enough hashing power to protect the Bitcoin network.

[RaggedMonk]

Vladimir - Are you and your associates willing to mine at above 51%?  Do you plan on maximizing profit or would you take measures to ensure confidence in the integrity of the network?

I have no reason to believe that we will ever be able to reach anywhere close to 50%. Even if we reach such capability (which is highly unlikely) it would be very unwise move for more than one reason.

Just check old ArtForz's posts on the matter (right about the time when he killed CPU miners, FPGA miners - take notice). It was discussed at length back than.

1. It makes no sense to have more than 50% and keep rising hashing capacity while being honest. Your machines will be simply driving difficulty up and competing with each other. Easier and cheaper to shut some down.

2. It makes no sense to have more than 50% and be dishonest as well for a variety of reasons, including ethical, public relations, investor relations, legal, long term profit.

You people give not enough credit to Bitcoin's design. It is much deeper than many get it.

My goal it so build a Bitcoin mining company that will be sustainable long term and that will continue ongoing investment into new technologies and new mining capacity, get listed, get optionable. I just cannot wait a moment when I can sell naked put and roll them perpetually (if allowed by law, damn insider trading thing).

It will be not so much a technological company but a financial one, more specifically an asset management company. There are plenty of examples in not Bitcoin world of companies that are being managed by a handful of professionals but have billions under management. Just check out biz models of companies like AYR and most REIT's and specifically O (my favourite, if I can I want to emulate their biz model, specifically stable monthly dividend and lack of leverage).

I respectfully suggest that many people here got it all wrong. This is not about killing Bitcoin and getting into 51% territory. Ask yourself why the hell would we want to become #1 target of guys with badges and guns? It is all about becoming the Bitcoin REIT and eventually being traded alongside of my darling O (Realty Income Corp. NYSE). My best estimate is that we will climb to 25-30% for a short period of time if we are lucky, just as I have done with GPU's at one point. History tends to repeat itself. I bet on it.

The FUD is being generated in this thread not by me, but perhaps by those who overextended themselves (we know who you are, lol) by buying FPGA's and now they are trying to pass their own fear to you. (do refer to my signature for legal disclaimer).

Thanks for the well thought out response and clarifications.  It is good to hear that your heart (and greed) is in the right place.

Would you be interested in codifying a provision into your bylaws which prevents you from rejecting valid blocks from other miners?  It would be easier for me to invest dollars if you made it an uphill battle for any future management to start monopolizing block production.  

[RaggedMonk]

Yes, a 51% miner effectively has 100%. That is correct. That is why 51% is twice as profitable as 49%. Actually, more than twice as profitable in the medium to long-term, but I won't go into the details here. That is why it makes sense to perform a massive centralized investment like this to get 51%. Once you have it, you get all the coins and everyone else gives up. Winner take all.

Incorrect.  A 51% miner may choose to monopolize the blockchain, but they do not have to.   What you are speaking of as a certainty is only a possibility.

[wogaut]

And if the 51% miner chooses to monopolize bitcoin, many people that came here for the freedom of currency will not accept the monopolist as their new fed printing money and look for something else.

[Vladimir]

You are going to leave all the money on the table to be noble. Why would anyone invest in your project, then?

Hmm. And I thought that I am just being smart, greedy and rational. If that also makes me noble, that is a plus. Tell it to Her Majesty. Sir Vladimir hmm sounds nice.