ISSUE WITH GOATS TYGRR-BANK BONDS.

[hashking]

I PM'D Goat this afternoon asking him that I should have still received my dividends even though I sold my bonds before they were paid.  I ended up selling 926 bonds on Tuesday and Wednesday this week before the whole Goat and Nefario drama happenned.  

His first repsond through email on the GLBSE was
Nefario is the only one with the technical skills to wort this out. I'm all about free market and he is about regulation. He is your man!

So I emailed Nefario and he said that Goat is responsible for this.  

I PM'd Goat and told him what Nefario said, Goat responds with
okay, make a discussion thread about this if you want me to respond. i hope you are not just trolling :/

I toldl Goat that it would be easier just to handle this through pm.

His response is:

you are saying I scammed you right? You need to take this to the trading discussion sub-forum so you can be educated how bonds work. :/
I do not have time for this right now, Sorry.

I never said that he scammed me.  All I did was ask for money that was owed to me and how do we resolve this.

According to his offering
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67818.0

Edit:
I will be selling a 2000 more bonds and lowering the payment to 2.5% on April 3rd. This means that the dividends on March 27th and April 3rd will be at 3% but after that it will be 2.5% until I change it (odds are lower it)
End Edit:
TyGrr-Bank Now operational on GLBSE!
TyGrr-Bank is a BTC bond that will pay weekly dividends every Tuesday 6:00 PM Thailand time.
This is an easy and safe way to lend small amounts of BTC.
The current rate is 3% each week!
Each bond will be sold at .103 BTC and will be bought back at any time at .1 BTC.
This spread is here because you do not need to hold the bond for a full week to get the dividend payment.
Thanks!

In my opinion he sold bonds not knowing how the GLBSE would handle trading on them and promised a .1 BTC per bond buyback.

I bought 926 bonds at 99.90 and sold 926 bonds at 77.252.  I didn't received Goats promised .1 BTC per bond like promised in his post.  
So currently he owes me 15.34 BTC for the price difference in bonds and 2.778 for the dividends.

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[OgNasty]

Goat selling 3% bonds and then suddenly saying he'll only pay 2.5% while telling you that you need to learn how bonds work is priceless.  Almost as classic as selling an additional 2000 shares in response to accusations that he was running a ponzi scheme.  

[hashking]

Goat selling 3% bonds and then suddenly saying he'll only pay 2.5% while telling you that you need to learn how bonds work is priceless.  Almost as classic as selling an additional 2000 shares in response to accusations that he was running a ponzi scheme. 

All I have to say is BUYER BEWARE.

[Raoul Duke]

AND...
BINGO

[Kluge]

Goat selling 3% bonds and then suddenly saying he'll only pay 2.5% while telling you that you need to learn how bonds work is priceless.  Almost as classic as selling an additional 2000 shares in response to accusations that he was running a ponzi scheme. 

He didn't "suddenly" say it. It was announced at least two weeks prior.

The problem here arose because Goat does not have a bidwall up on GLBSE, so HK sold his shares to a third-party, not back to Goat. Goat stated he will BUY back shares. As Goat was not sold back his shares in this case, I think it'd be a hard argument to expect him to pay the difference between what HK received from a third-party and face-value of the bonds. But again, there ought to have been (and be) a bidwall up buying @ face value.

Goat's response, though... :/


ETA: Agree he should have stated you need to contact him prior to selling, too - which wouldn't be an issue if there were a bidwall up.

ETA2: Just for clarification on the bidwall - I forgot GLBSE now locks related assets to open orders. I also forget Goat has other intentions with this bond than profits. I was thinking having a bidwall up @ .1 would be great for him as it's effectively 3% profit over what he sold them for since he could just re-issue @ .1025. I never even thought he might pay partial dividends if someone sold a share before the dividend issue date -- that concept seems quite foreign to me.

[hashking]

Goat selling 3% bonds and then suddenly saying he'll only pay 2.5% while telling you that you need to learn how bonds work is priceless.  Almost as classic as selling an additional 2000 shares in response to accusations that he was running a ponzi scheme. 

He didn't "suddenly" say it. It was announced at least two weeks prior.

The problem here arose because Goat does not have a bidwall up on GLBSE, so HK sold his shares to a third-party, not back to Goat. Goat stated he will BUY back shares. As Goat was not sold back his shares in this case, I think it'd be a hard argument to expect him to pay the difference between what HK received from a third-party and face-value of the bonds. But again, there ought to have been (and be) a bidwall up buying @ face value.

Goat's response, though... :/

The thing is he didn't specify in his bond thread that we would have to contact him to sell them back.  He messed this up by not being clear if that's how he wanted this to work.

[N12]

I was unable to increase my bid wall because my account was locked. Is this my fault or Nefarios?

I also said in the thread contact me if you want to sell back a large amount and I will place a bid wall. He never contacted me.

I'm interested to see what people think I should do here and why. I think this will be a very fun thread.

In my view, it was yours, because you caused the whole public drama in the first place which led to the selling and refused to cooperate with Nefario (simple ID), so you valued your pride higher than your shareholders. It was right to lock your account if it’s true there were hundreds of login attempts.

But I’m going to refrain from commenting further on this case. It’s clear enough at this point for everyone to take his stance based on what happened.

[hashking]

I was unable to increase my bid wall because my account was locked. Is this my fault or Nefarios?

I also said in the thread contact me if you want to sell back a large amount and I will place a bid wall. He never contacted me.

I'm interested to see what people think I should do here and why. I think this will be a very fun thread.

Here is your offering.  Please state where it shows that we should have contacted you.


Edit:

I will be selling a 2000 more bonds and lowering the payment to 2.5% on April 3rd. This means that the dividends on March 27th and April 3rd will be at 3% but after that it will be 2.5% until I change it (odds are lower it)

End Edit:

TyGrr-Bank Now operational on GLBSE!

TyGrr-Bank is a BTC bond that will pay weekly dividends every Tuesday 6:00 PM Thailand time.

This is an easy and safe way to lend small amounts of BTC.

The current rate is 3% each week!

Each bond will be sold at .103 BTC and will be bought back at any time at .1 BTC.

This spread is here because you do not need to hold the bond for a full week to get the dividend payment.


Thanks!

[hashking]

Maybe this thing should get delisted.   There are too many issues with it and Goat doesn't want to take any responsibility for his errors.

[guruvan]

Maybe this thing should get delisted.   There are too many issues with it and Goat doesn't want to take any responsibility for his errors.

While that may be the case, trading should have been halted while the issue was sorted out. There is more than Goat responsible for this situation.

[OgNasty]

Delisting won't have much of an effect on Goat, he has 3 other listings on the GLBSE.  Pirateat40 telling him to walk the plank due to this would be the only real justice.

[hashking]

Maybe this thing should get delisted.   There are too many issues with it and Goat doesn't want to take any responsibility for his errors.

While that may be the case, trading should have been halted while the issue was sorted out. There is more than Goat responsible for this situation.

Even if the situation with him and Nefario didn't occur the same would have happenned.  Halting it would have done nothing.  It doesn't change what he promised to the bond holders.

[likuidxd]

I was unable to increase my bid wall because my account was locked. Is this my fault or Nefarios?

I also said in the thread contact me if you want to sell back a large amount and I will place a bid wall. He never contacted me.

I'm interested to see what people think I should do here and why. I think this will be a very fun thread.

IMO
He was still holding when the dividends should have been paid so he should receive that.

Maybe a percentage of the difference should be paid because of the delay in complying with Nefarios request and the miscommunication.

[hashking]

I held the bonds on the 4th and 3rd so I should have been paid.  There is no way you can dispute that.  

[hashking]

So should I take away the dividends from the people I already paid?

Why would you do that. 

[likuidxd]

So should I take away the dividends from the people I already paid?

No. That's not fair to your new bond holders.
If he can prove he held those bonds on the day that the dividends are scheduled to be paid in the bond description, then he should receive that money. You also need to add to that description that you need to be contacted about buying back bonds. You can't expect future holders to go through your forum op for everything.

In business, cover all your bases or someone will run them.

Happy Opening Day baseball fans! 

[Nefario]

So should I take away the dividends from the people I already paid?

No. That's not fair to your new bond holders.
If he can prove he held those bonds on the day that the dividends are scheduled to be paid in the bond description, then he should receive that money. You also need to add to that description that you need to be contacted about buying back bonds. You can't expect future holders to go through your forum op for everything.

In business, cover all your bases or someone will run them.

Happy Opening Day baseball fans! 

The functionality to pay people based on the dates they held the shares is not a part of GLBSE(yet).

Yes people (asset issuers) make promises to pay on certain days and times, these are all subject to permissive circumstances. Sometimes there are delays for various reasons.

Are there terms in the Tygrr-Bank contract for what happens if a certain condition is not met (i.e. payments made late)?

Unless there are terms that outline what happens in such an eventuality I don't think you can just make them up yourself. What you can hope for is a best effort attempt to make it up.

Shares in Tygrr-Bank were not frozen, the market could decide for itself what was the best thing to do. If someone decides to sell at a loss because of some bad news then that is their decision.

[vampire]

So in a nutshell:

Nefario locks Goats account
Goat is prevented from sending dividends
Hashing sells bonds during the lock
After the unlock goat sent the payments to current bond holders

Hashking misses the dividends because he isn't a bond holder anymore.



Hmm.

[hashking]

So should I take away the dividends from the people I already paid?

No. That's not fair to your new bond holders.
If he can prove he held those bonds on the day that the dividends are scheduled to be paid in the bond description, then he should receive that money. You also need to add to that description that you need to be contacted about buying back bonds. You can't expect future holders to go through your forum op for everything.

In business, cover all your bases or someone will run them.

Happy Opening Day baseball fans! 

The functionality to pay people based on the dates they held the shares is not a part of GLBSE(yet).

Yes people (asset issuers) make promises to pay on certain days and times, these are all subject to permissive circumstances. Sometimes there are delays for various reasons.

Are there terms in the Tygrr-Bank contract for what happens if a certain condition is not met (i.e. payments made late)?

Unless there are terms that outline what happens in such an eventuality I don't think you can just make them up yourself. What you can hope for is a best effort attempt to make it up.

Shares in Tygrr-Bank were not frozen, the market could decide for itself what was the best thing to do. If someone decides to sell at a loss because of some bad news then that is their decision.

So it sounds like you are ok with people just making up the rules for their stock as they go along and not payout what they promised.  If there is no rules for the companies that trade on your exchange then its worthless at best.  

[vampire]

And didn't kluge agreed to cover the difference of ~18btc?