Max Keiser Report on Bitcoins! 4/7/2012

[molecular]

The comments on the youtube video about Bitcoin don't seem to be overly positive which is a shame. It's such a mystery to me to see those negative comments so strangely resemble trolling almost as if someone pays some people to write garbage about it.

Many Keiser viewers are heavy metal stackers. They will come around eventually.

I know some of the reactions of the "youtube silver community" to bitcoin. With one exception (davincij15), they seem either ignorant/reluctant or outright opposed... even the smart and thoughtful ones. They (rightly?) think a strong bitcoin means weak metal and boy, they don't like that.

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[BitPay Business Solutions]

He said he would use his media leverage to promote bitcoin. Go Max! and: thanks to bitpay for working with him. The 1 million goal still stands?

Yessir, we are still working on the video for it.  It's coming along nicely!

[molecular]

He said he would use his media leverage to promote bitcoin. Go Max! and: thanks to bitpay for working with him. The 1 million goal still stands?

Yessir, we are still working on the video for it.  It's coming along nicely!

the one that has been funded via piratemyfilm "Screw Banks - Use Bitcoin"? Can't wait

[molecular]

that Michelle Bowans (?) guy from the p2p foundation is awesome:

There's a few things we like about Bitcoin. The first thing is, we call it a 'socialist sovereign currency', so it's a currency which is not created by the banks and it's not created by the state. It really exists because there is a human community, you know, the hacker community, the bitcoin community, which wants this to works and trusts the protocol that is designed to create the money.
So this is a kind of historical moment for [?] with failing currency: we used to have local currencies, then the nationstate came and basically destroyed them. The fact that we now have a working global currency that is created by a community - in our mind - is usually significant as a kind of symbolic moment in the history of mankind.

awesome!

[cbeast]

that Michelle Bowans (?) guy from the p2p foundation is awesome:

There's a few things we like about Bitcoin. The first thing is, we call it a 'socialist sovereign currency', so it's a currency which is not created by the banks and it's not created by the state. It really exists because there is a human community, you know, the hacker community, the bitcoin community, which wants this to works and trusts the protocol that is designed to create the money.
So this is a kind of historical moment for [?] with failing currency: we used to have local currencies, then the nationstate came and basically destroyed them. The fact that we now have a working global currency that is created by a community - in our mind - is usually significant as a kind of symbolic moment in the history of mankind.

awesome!

and grok!

[cbeast]

Greed is good... Greed without bad consequences is the problem.

did you just say something good not resulting in something bad is the problem?
binary logic fail 

Greed is good PERIOD

It's what drives evolution and has driven it since the first spark of life. I kinda like evolution, don't you?

Everything that evolves also goes extinct. That's why punctuated equilibrium is observed in long existing species. Humanity exists because we learned to cooperate instead of continuously compete for every resource. We learn to delay gratification for better rewards for ourselves and everyone else.

[benjamindees]

Lemmings are predictable as well.  Do you think perhaps greed should be tempered with a bit of risk-aversion?

[wachtwoord]

It is by definition.

I think you (and with you many others) are confusing greed and recklessness. Greed simply means doing all things primarily in your own interest (either directly or indirectly).

[benjamindees]

Yes, but then the question becomes "over what time period?"  Because the most striking examples of modern 'greed' involve recklessly acting "in ones own interest" over the short term, typically a few quarters or even, in one high profile case, over a weekend.  Keynesians, for example, would argue that the upper limit for "acting in ones own interest" is the span of a single human life, and that we should be forced to act in our interest over longer timespans.  Civilizations, even, often fail to act in their own long term best interests, and eventually collapse from overreach and resource exhaustion.  So what makes you any different?  When you claim to act in your own best interest, how far into the future are you planning?

[cbeast]

Yes, we collaborate out of greed.

The point is ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good.
Greed works, greed is right, greed clarifies, cuts through and captures the evolutionary spirit
Greed in all of its forms, greed for money, for life, love knowledge, has marked the upwards surge of man kind.
And Greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

Thank you very much

(yes I typed that from memory).

I love that all other people are greedy as well. Makes them predictable

Tautologies are my favorite of all fallacies. Then deny the antecedent and mix ad nauseum. It makes a cocktail best served with double shot chasers.

[Portnoy]

Greed simply means doing all things primarily in your own interest (either directly or indirectly).

In common usage it usually means doing all things primarily in your own interest, at the expense of others.

More and more scientific evidence seems to show us that cooperation tends to get one a better life than cut-throat
competition.  Some may suggest that is what separates humans (potentially) from wild animals... but even modern
studies seem to show us that there is more cooperation in, wild and red in tooth and claw, nature then we had previously
thought.

This little ancient allegory below I feel illustrates it very well ( despite it appearing on the surface as some sappy sunday school story,
it was originally Taoist, I think, but often gets mangled into some Christian form for use in the modern West ):

There is a story about a man who left this earth and was taken on a tour of the inner realms.  He was shown a room where he saw a large group of hungry people trying to eat dinner from a single large pot in the center of the room, but because their spoons were longer than their arms, they were frustrated.  "This," his guide told him, "is hell."  "That's terrible," the man exclaimed.  "Please show me heaven."  "Very well," agreed the guide, and off they went.  When they opened the door to heaven, the man was perplexed to see what looked like exactly the same scene:  there was a group of people with spoons longer than their arms and the same pot of food in the center of the room.  But as he looked more closely, he saw happy faces and well-fed bodies, for there was one important difference:  the people in heaven had learned to feed each other. 

[wachtwoord]

@cbeats: you are correct I made no arguments whatsoever. I just posed some statements. I don't believe that makes it a tautology since I didn't imply they were arguments to begin with. And why do you think my final statement is contradictionairy with the rest of the statements?

@Portnoy: I disagree with your initial statement. Actions be taken due to greed as the primary motivator are in the subjects own interest but do not necessarily hurt others. They can of course, but whether they do or don't just doesn't matter. So I believe our disagreements stems from a disagreement of the definition of the term greed. This is probably the cause of the "for lack of a better word"-part.

[cbeast]

@cbeats: you are correct I made no arguments whatsoever. I just posed some statements. I don't believe that makes it a tautology since I didn't imply they were arguments to begin with. And why do you think my final statement is contradictionairy with the rest of the statements?

A statement is by definition an argument. Untrue statements are poor arguments. I'm not even sure where to begin with the errors in logic. First you say that greed is acting in our own interest (to take advantage of our position), then you say greed is collaborating, which is by definition working with others. I think you are going to great lengths to redefine the term cooperation to serve your hypothesis that "greed is good." That is another fallacy called moving the goalposts. You then use that to make your tautology that cooperation is good. The requirement for cooperation is mutual good, hence a tautology. Given the fact that you meorized Gordon Gekko's speech, it shows that quite possibly you committed another fallacy and missed the point of the movie. Did you also feel bad for the poor Cobra Kai?  

[wachtwoord]

Didn't watch the movie sorry

Collaboration can (and quite often is) in one's own interest. There is no contradiction there. If you can't agree with that I don't really know what to do with you....

Secondly, I do not redefine the term greed. I never used another definition.

[cbeast]

Since you don't see my logic, we're at an impass. As far as the "Greed is good" mentality, we'll just have to agree to disagree. At the risk of committing an argumentum ad populum, I'll just be on the side that believes that greed is immoral.

[molecular]

Greed is good... Greed without bad consequences is the problem.

did you just say something good not resulting in something bad is the problem?
binary logic fail 

Greed is good PERIOD

It's what drives evolution and has driven it since the first spark of life. I kinda like evolution, don't you?

There's no good or bad a priori and evolution is about survival.

[notme]

Greed is good... Greed without bad consequences is the problem.

did you just say something good not resulting in something bad is the problem?
binary logic fail 

Greed is good PERIOD

It's what drives evolution and has driven it since the first spark of life. I kinda like evolution, don't you?

There's no good or bad a priori and evolution is about survival.

+1

Good and bad don't exist outside the individual who labels events/concepts as such.  Some people even go so far as to actively discourage themselves from applying such distinctions to observations and concepts.

[molecular]

Greed simply means doing all things primarily in your own interest (either directly or indirectly).

In common usage it usually means doing all things primarily in your own interest, at the expense of others.

More and more scientific evidence seems to show us that cooperation tends to get one a better life than cut-throat
competition.  Some may suggest that is what separates humans (potentially) from wild animals... but even modern
studies seem to show us that there is more cooperation in, wild and red in tooth and claw, nature then we had previously
thought.

This little ancient allegory below I feel illustrates it very well ( despite it appearing on the surface as some sappy sunday school story,
it was originally Taoist, I think, but often gets mangled into some Christian form for use in the modern West ):

There is a story about a man who left this earth and was taken on a tour of the inner realms.  He was shown a room where he saw a large group of hungry people trying to eat dinner from a single large pot in the center of the room, but because their spoons were longer than their arms, they were frustrated.  "This," his guide told him, "is hell."  "That's terrible," the man exclaimed.  "Please show me heaven."  "Very well," agreed the guide, and off they went.  When they opened the door to heaven, the man was perplexed to see what looked like exactly the same scene:  there was a group of people with spoons longer than their arms and the same pot of food in the center of the room.  But as he looked more closely, he saw happy faces and well-fed bodies, for there was one important difference:  the people in heaven had learned to feed each other. 

also very relevant classic film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6XGiAOjkrE called "Balance"

[cbeast]

Good and bad don't exist outside the individual who labels events/concepts as such.  Some people even go so far as to actively discourage themselves from applying such distinctions to observations and concepts.

Yes and no. Spindle cells, mirror neurons, and other higher brain functions exist in highly intelligent animals. Knowing right and wrong is hardwired. Empathetic and ethical people can be spotted by brain scans independent of any labels. We all have the capability of developing our humanity. Acting on those feelings is another matter.

[hazek]

When I said greed is good and that greed without bad consequences is the problem I meant that greed is a healthy and even a required impulse to drive progress, innovation and ultimately growth in the marketplace which benefits all of it's participants and that the cause of problems that arise in the marketplace when it's trying to progress, innovate and grow is the artificially removed risks of a loss.

As long as you have greed coupled with the risk of loss those two forces balance each other out and are healthy and required if your goal is to have the marketplace grow productively.


Oh and I agree there is no objective good or bad outside of trying to reach a specific objective goal.