It's about time to turn off PoW mining

[CoinHoarder]

When you look at the costs for mining PoS vs mining PoW coins as a percentage of the value of the total coins then PoW is much more efficient. PoS actively discourages people from spending their coins therefore the economy will never mature and thus the value of the coins will always be small. This will result in the PoS coin always having a smaller potential market cap then any PoW coin to the point that the cost per dollar of market cap is higher for a PoS coin

This is not true as there are versions of PoS that it doesn't matter how long you hold the coins. Delegated proof of stake for instance destroys fees and that is how the companies dividends are paid, thus it doesn't matter how long you've held the coins or if you buy something with them. BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

[snappa4ever]

When you look at the costs for mining PoS vs mining PoW coins as a percentage of the value of the total coins then PoW is much more efficient. PoS actively discourages people from spending their coins therefore the economy will never mature and thus the value of the coins will always be small. This will result in the PoS coin always having a smaller potential market cap then any PoW coin to the point that the cost per dollar of market cap is higher for a PoS coin

This is not true as there are versions do PoS that it doesn't matter how long you hold the coins. Delegated proof of stake for instance destroys fees and that is how the companies dividends are paid, thus it doesn't matter how long you've held the coins or if you buy something with them. BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

I would argue that there are simply too many ways to manipulate PoS crypto coins for any of them to be secure. When you have a PoW coin you must invest in some kind of machine in order to mine and it will take some amount of time of using the machine to secure the network before you will have earned your initial investment back. This gives the miners an incentive not to attack a PoW network even if they have the capacity to do so. 

[seriouscoin]

Pffft, of course. Sorry to waste your time with that!

My bad.

No problem!  My number was a complete guess anyway, based on the fact that OP said it would cost "hundreds of millions" to gain enough hashpower for 51% attack.  You did the math, and it seems like $300M is almost spot-on.

The point isnt just about the cost of the attack but how effective it is.

The attack can only disrupt the blockchain for a short moment then become nullified when the community responds.

Not to mention 51% is .... in theory, but in reality you have to beat the network multiple times consequentially.

[CoinHoarder]

When you look at the costs for mining PoS vs mining PoW coins as a percentage of the value of the total coins then PoW is much more efficient. PoS actively discourages people from spending their coins therefore the economy will never mature and thus the value of the coins will always be small. This will result in the PoS coin always having a smaller potential market cap then any PoW coin to the point that the cost per dollar of market cap is higher for a PoS coin

This is not true as there are versions do PoS that it doesn't matter how long you hold the coins. Delegated proof of stake for instance destroys fees and that is how the companies dividends are paid, thus it doesn't matter how long you've held the coins or if you buy something with them. BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

I would argue that there are simply too many ways to manipulate PoS crypto coins for any of them to be secure. When you have a PoW coin you must invest in some kind of machine in order to mine and it will take some amount of time of using the machine to secure the network before you will have earned your initial investment back. This gives the miners an incentive not to attack a PoW network even if they have the capacity to do so.  

This is one thigh that annoys me about the PoW vs PoS debate. People saying PoW is so much more secure than PoS, because it is not entirely true as both have their strengths and weaknesses. People have been claiming PoS is insecure for years, yet no one has been able to successfully attack it. A lot of people don't realize that there are many different versions of PoS also, some more secure or better than others. There have been something like 10 PoS algos released (or in development) this year alone. Older versions were less secure than newer versions, but that is just natural as people improve and expand upon the original PoS innovation.

You are right that people investing in mining hardware are unlikely to attack PoW. I think that is an unlikely attack vector. A more likely scenario would be a government or large global bank pay for someone to root the discus fish and/or bitfury mining pools, or build a large farm themselves. Due to economies of scale that ASICs provide, it is economically feasible that over 100 countries in the world could attack Bitcoin with no support from any other country. Furthermore, it is mathematically likely to be able to attack the Bitcoin network with as little as 30% of the hashing power with a reasonable success rate. I think most people read 51% attack and assume because of the name that someone would need 51% of the network, but mathematics and probability will show that is untrue. A prolonged double spend attack would crush the confidence in Bitcoin, brining it to its knees.

[gtraah]

BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.

[seriouscoin]

BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.

Hes a dumbass, he thinks supply = inflation.

While infact, the inflation rate of USD trumps all. LOL i bet he think gold is also not deflationary.

[OrientA]

Just use a different coin if you think some other system is better.

Proof of work is one of the main (if not the main) strengths of Bitcoin.

Exactly. There are many coins you can choose.

[MightyStorm]

DPoS suffers from a crucial problem which invalidates the whole system. There is no proof of stake, therefore there is no way to conclusively ascertain which chain is the longest and thus which spending is not a double spend. Meaning that DPoS does not prevent double spending.

[delulo]

DPoS suffers from a crucial problem which invalidates the whole system. There is no proof of stake, therefore there is no way to conclusively ascertain which chain is the longest and thus which spending is not a double spend. Meaning that DPoS does not prevent double spending.

walk me through that please!

[proofofarat]

Sounds like infomercial from an uninformed troll

[CIYAM]

Sounds like infomercial from an uninformed troll

Haha - about 90% of all posts on this forum appear to be exactly that!

[krach]

PUMP BITSHARESX

[niothor]

My reasoning:
* Each transaction in Bitcoin costs hundreds of time more than a credit card transaction to process. (currently this is subsidized by inflow of capital into the eco-system, so users haven't felt the full effect).

* Hundreds of millions of dollars are paid to mining hardware vendor and electricity company. This will continue year after year, and only will grow more and more as Bitcoin grows bigger. The Bitcoin community is being bled dry. The price action this year shows that even with massive amount of big name adoption and good news, the inflow of capital is having trouble to keep up with the insane surge of mining cost.

* There are better ways to secure the network, for example Bitshares's DPoS system. Money is re-invested into the eco-system and community, instead of paid to hardware vendor and electric company.

* If Bitcoin doesn't drop PoW and embrace the much more efficient DPoS system. I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin. Simply because Bitcoin eco-system is bleeding hundreds of millions of dollars each year, and the DPoS re-invests the money and grows the eco-system/community each year.

Btw, you can hold BTC in Bitshares  

It's so sad to see a Legendary member with this kind of tactics to try and pump bitshares

If you want to criticize bitcoin , do it without praising a system that will turn to dust long before POW will show any weakness.

[kokojie]

I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin.

You are not even accepting donation in Bitshares

/thread

My donation info for Bitshares is right in front of your eyes (hint: it's my id)

[kokojie]

My reasoning:
* Each transaction in Bitcoin costs hundreds of time more than a credit card transaction to process. (currently this is subsidized by inflow of capital into the eco-system, so users haven't felt the full effect).

* Hundreds of millions of dollars are paid to mining hardware vendor and electricity company. This will continue year after year, and only will grow more and more as Bitcoin grows bigger. The Bitcoin community is being bled dry. The price action this year shows that even with massive amount of big name adoption and good news, the inflow of capital is having trouble to keep up with the insane surge of mining cost.

* There are better ways to secure the network, for example Bitshares's DPoS system. Money is re-invested into the eco-system and community, instead of paid to hardware vendor and electric company.

* If Bitcoin doesn't drop PoW and embrace the much more efficient DPoS system. I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin. Simply because Bitcoin eco-system is bleeding hundreds of millions of dollars each year, and the DPoS re-invests the money and grows the eco-system/community each year.

Btw, you can hold BTC in Bitshares  

It's so sad to see a Legendary member with this kind of tactics to try and pump bitshares

If you want to criticize bitcoin , do it without praising a system that will turn to dust long before POW will show any weakness.

Not so much as to pump bitshares, but to create a sense of urgency for Bitcoin to fade out PoW. Because I legitimately think Bitshares will overtake Bitcoin in 3-4 years, if the status quo is maintained, due to the advantage of not having transfer hundreds of millions of dollars to hardware vendor/electric companies every year.

I hold much more Bitcoin than Bitshares.

How would I criticize Bitcoin PoW without showing a potentially superior alternative implementation?

[inBitweTrust]

Not so much as to pump bitshares, but to create a sense of urgency for Bitcoin to fade out PoW. Because I legitimately think Bitshares will overtake Bitcoin in 3-4 years, if the status quo is maintained, due to the advantage of not having transfer hundreds of millions of dollars to hardware vendor/electric companies every year.

I hold much more Bitcoin than Bitshares.

If you believe Bitshares are superior , than sell your BTC and buy more bitshares. We will all join you in time if you are right, and you will be rewarded for your earlier insights.

The fact that you are sill heavily invested in BTC and are making comments like "PoW is dead" is troubling to say the least.

[Gavin Andresen]

Is there a rebuttal from the PoS crowd to this:
  https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

... other than "sure, the original PoS ideas were flawed, but the latest MegaUberPoS system gets it right and nobody has figured out exactly how to break it!"

[kokojie]

Not so much as to pump bitshares, but to create a sense of urgency for Bitcoin to fade out PoW. Because I legitimately think Bitshares will overtake Bitcoin in 3-4 years, if the status quo is maintained, due to the advantage of not having transfer hundreds of millions of dollars to hardware vendor/electric companies every year.

I hold much more Bitcoin than Bitshares.

If you believe Bitshares are superior , than sell your BTC and buy more bitshares. We will all join you in time if you are right, and you will be rewarded for your earlier insights.

The fact that you are sill heavily invested in BTC and are making comments like "PoW is dead" is troubling to say the least.

I don't like PoW precisely because I'm heavily invested in Bitcoin. Would you be happy if your 401k account charges you 10% expense each year? This is what PoW is costing Bitcoin owners

[kokojie]

Is there a rebuttal from the PoS crowd to this:
  https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

... other than "sure, the original PoS ideas were flawed, but the latest MegaUberPoS system gets it right and nobody has figured out exactly how to break it!"

I am not the best person to discuss the technical details here, but how do you explain PoW altcoins are easily 51% attacked to death. But then PoS altcoins all avoided this fate, and most of them (the non scammy ones), works and works well. Clearly when put in a equal competition (altcoins), the PoS system came out on top in an equal competitive environment (without early start advantage etc...).

Currently top 6 marketcap:
1. Bitcoin (PoW) (early start)
2. Litecoin (PoW) (early start)
3. Ripple (not PoW nor PoS, possibly a scam)
4. BitsharesX (PoS) (DPoS)
5. NxT (PoS) (possibly scam distribution)
6. Peercoin (PoS) (PoW initial distribution)

[jl2012]

Is there a rebuttal from the PoS crowd to this:
  https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

... other than "sure, the original PoS ideas were flawed, but the latest MegaUberPoS system gets it right and nobody has figured out exactly how to break it!"

I am not the best person to discuss the technical details here, but how do you explain PoW altcoins are easily 51% attacked to death. But then PoS altcoins all avoided this fate, and most of them (the non scammy ones), works and works well. Clearly when put in a equal competition (altcoins), the PoS system came out on top in an equal competitive environment (without early start advantage etc...).

Currently top 6 marketcap:
1. Bitcoin (early start)
2. Litecoin (early start)
3. Ripple (not PoW nor PoS, possibly a scam)
4. BitsharesX (PoS) (DPoS)
5. NxT (PoS) (possibly scam distribution)
6. Peercoin (PoS) (PoW initial distribution)

The answer is here at section 6.4: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf