It's about time to turn off PoW mining

[inBitweTrust]

If anything, I would think being bigger makes it much more difficult to attack.

No,  the centralized nature of bitshares allows a hacker to only need to target delegates regardless of the size of DPoS market cap.

Except, in PoW, you don't even need to lease/buy/hijack 50%, you need roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap value to buy enough hardware to 51% attack Bitcoin. Basically if you could simultaneously hack discus fish and ghash.io, you could 51% attack Bitcoin today, right now.

Sure, but with Bitcoin you have to buy or manufacture the equipment and spend the time and money setting up the large mining farms , and spend electricity to fake 1-3 transactions. With PoS or DPoS all you have to do is hijack or hack the centralized keyholders without actually spending any money or resources. Who knows how many Bitshares keyholders or Nxt large shareholders are already compromised at this moment.

[kokojie]

If anything, I would think being bigger makes it much more difficult to attack.

No, with Bitshares because of centralization hacker only need to target delegates regardless of the size of DPoS market cap.

Except, in PoW, you don't even need to lease/buy/hijack 50%, you need roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap value to buy enough hardware to 51% attack Bitcoin. Basically if you could simultaneously hack discus fish and ghash.io, you could 51% attack Bitcoin today, right now.

Sure, but with Bitcoin you have to buy or manufacture the equipment and spend the time and money setting up the large mining farms , and spend electricity to fake 1-3 transactions. With PoS or DPoS all you have to do is hijack or hack the centralized keyholders without actually spending any money or resources. Who knows how many Bitshares keyholders or Nxt large shareholders are already compromised at this moment.

Delegates are still voted in by stake, stakeholders could simply vote them out instantly if they are compromised (though good luck compromising 51 de-centralized delegates), Bitshares makes this a very fast and simple process. No attacker would be dumb enough to target the Delegates. They would still target the stakes.

Doesn't really matter how many stakeholders are hacked (just like Bitcoin, if you get hacked, you lose your coin), since the hacker is now the new stakeholder, even if a hacker controls 51%. The dis-incentive to attack is built in. Why would you attack the eco-system you hold 51% stake in? and destroy its reputation and value, and in the process destroy your own wealth??? it goes against human nature. (and again, good luck hacking enough stakeholders to get 51% stake, unless big stakeholders somehow are all morons, they will make it impossible for you to hack)

Like I said, you can make up these scenarios about PoS all day long, just like I could make up these for PoW too. The difference is, your scenario doesn't actually happen in reality, and my PoW scenarios does happen.

[inBitweTrust]

Delegates are still voted in by stake, stakeholders could simply vote them out instantly if they are compromised (though good luck compromising 51 de-centralized delegates), Bitshares makes this a very fast and simple process. No attacker would be dumb enough to target the Delegates. They would still target the stakes.

Doesn't really matter how many stakeholders are hacked (just like Bitcoin, if you get hacked, you lose your coin), since the hacker is now the new stakeholder, even if a hacker controls 51%. The dis-incentive to attack is built in. Why would you attack the eco-system you hold 51% stake in? and destroy its reputation and value, and in the process destroy your own wealth??? it goes against human nature. (and again, good luck hacking enough stakeholders to get 51% stake, unless big stakeholders somehow are all morons, they will make it impossible for you to hack)

You are making the flawed assumption that delegates or stakeholders will be aware they are compromised. If they aren't aware than an attack can happen at any moment or could have already happened.

 Do you understand that there are ways to cheat in a DPoS framework without immediately arising suspicion that the protocol is compromised?

You keep discounting the importance of hypothetical attack vectors when they are of utmost of importance in information security. All investors of "Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities " were quite happy clients with no history of an attack until Bam a "hypothetical" ponzi security vulnerability hit them.

[krach]

Do you understand that there are ways to cheat in a DPoS framework without immediately arising suspicion that the protocol is compromised?

Noooooooooooooo!

[kokojie]

Delegates are still voted in by stake, stakeholders could simply vote them out instantly if they are compromised (though good luck compromising 51 de-centralized delegates), Bitshares makes this a very fast and simple process. No attacker would be dumb enough to target the Delegates. They would still target the stakes.

Doesn't really matter how many stakeholders are hacked (just like Bitcoin, if you get hacked, you lose your coin), since the hacker is now the new stakeholder, even if a hacker controls 51%. The dis-incentive to attack is built in. Why would you attack the eco-system you hold 51% stake in? and destroy its reputation and value, and in the process destroy your own wealth??? it goes against human nature. (and again, good luck hacking enough stakeholders to get 51% stake, unless big stakeholders somehow are all morons, they will make it impossible for you to hack)

You are making the flawed assumption that delegates or stakeholders will be aware they are compromised. If they aren't aware than an attack can happen at any moment or could have already happened.

 Do you understand that there are ways to cheat in a DPoS framework without immediately arising suspicion that the protocol is compromised?
 

Again you are making up these nearly impossible scenarios which PoS can be attacked, which I already told you, I agree PoS CAN be attacked ok? but it's much more difficult than PoW!!!

Let's compare:

Hack attack on DPoS:
* compromise the private and probably firewalled computers of 51 de-centralized delegates, WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. I can't even imagine how you would be able to obtain the IPs of these 51 delegates.

Hack attack on Bitcoin PoW:
* hack discus fish and ghash.io, (both offer web server access). and... done

[zorke]

Except, in PoW, you don't even need to lease/buy/hijack 50%, you need roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap value to buy enough hardware to 51% attack Bitcoin. Basically if you could simultaneously hack discus fish and ghash.io, you could 51% attack Bitcoin today, right now.

You are referring to pools being attacked. Miners can easily switch their machines to a different pool in the event the pool was to be hacked, or they could solo mine.

If someone were to lease enough hashpower to launch a 51% attack then your attack would no longer be effective once your lease is up. In order for a 51% attack to be effective an attacker needs to control 51% of the network for extended periods of time otherwise the "attack blocks" can simply be ignored

[kokojie]

Except, in PoW, you don't even need to lease/buy/hijack 50%, you need roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap value to buy enough hardware to 51% attack Bitcoin. Basically if you could simultaneously hack discus fish and ghash.io, you could 51% attack Bitcoin today, right now.

You are referring to pools being attacked. Miners can easily switch their machines to a different pool in the event the pool was to be hacked, or they could solo mine.

If someone were to lease enough hashpower to launch a 51% attack then your attack would no longer be effective once your lease is up. In order for a 51% attack to be effective an attacker needs to control 51% of the network for extended periods of time otherwise the "attack blocks" can simply be ignored

Except ghash.io owns most of the hardware mining on the pool thru cloud mining, and discus fish is soon to offer cloud mining too.

[cbeast]

The irrefutable argument about PoS:
A big business/nation/alliance/conglomerate etc. can start a MasterPal/DinersCharge/BricBux/EuroDAQ coin and market it as a PoS. Anyone can do it. All it takes is financial or political power to launch a PoS copy of your favorite flavor of pre-mine and market it. We already saw what marketing can do for copycat coins with Doge. Just wait until the big boys want to clone your pet PoS that you invested in development. They will take your code and not even say 'thank you.' They will put their brand on it and control it according to the regulations that they paid lobbyists to write. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing you can do to stop them from kicking sand on your puny little NXT or PPC.

[inBitweTrust]

Hack attack on DPoS:
* compromise the private and probably firewalled computers of 51 de-centralized delegates, WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. I can't even imagine how you would be able to obtain the IPs of these 51 delegates.

Hack attack on Bitcoin PoW:
* hack discus fish and ghash.io, (both offer web server access). and... done

discus fish and ghash.io probably have much better security than those 51 delegates but that is besides the point. The point is I agree that bitcoin is vulnerable, and that's why I repeatedly have claimed your suggestions would be 1 step forward and 2 steps back in the long term. you are introducing new attack vulnerabilities when we should focus on fixing bitcoins known existing vulnerabilities.

What we need is a much larger and diverse pool of nodes and a much more diverse pool of miners that aren't using cloud mining or non-p2p pools.

[kokojie]

The irrefutable argument about PoS:
A big business/nation/alliance/conglomerate etc. can start a MasterPal/DinersCharge/BricBux/EuroDAQ coin and market it as a PoS. Anyone can do it. All it takes is financial or political power to launch a PoS copy of your favorite flavor of pre-mine and market it. We already saw what marketing can do for copycat coins with Doge. Just wait until the big boys want to clone your pet PoS that you invested in development. They will take your code and not even say 'thank you.' They will put their brand on it and control it according to the regulations that they paid lobbyists to write. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing you can do to stop them from kicking sand on your puny little NXT or PPC.

oh sure, since it's too difficult to copy PoW, they will only copy PoS instead. Makes sense.

[kokojie]

Hack attack on DPoS:
* compromise the private and probably firewalled computers of 51 de-centralized delegates, WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. I can't even imagine how you would be able to obtain the IPs of these 51 delegates.

Hack attack on Bitcoin PoW:
* hack discus fish and ghash.io, (both offer web server access). and... done

discus fish and ghash.io probably have much better security than those 51 delegates but that is besides the point. The point is I agree that bitcoin is vulnerable, and that's why I repeatedly have claimed your suggestions would be 1 step forward and 2 steps back in the long term. you are introducing new attack vulnerabilities when we should focus on fixing bitcoins known existing vulnerabilities.

What we need is a much larger and diverse pool of nodes and a much more diverse pool of miners that aren't using cloud mining or non-p2p pools.

Any service that offers web server access, is automatically less secure than my private firewalled computer. (assuming I don't install trojan/viruses myself).

It would be a big challenge for you to even find my real IP. (hint my forum ip is not my real ip, so hacking this forum does nothing)

[cbeast]

The irrefutable argument about PoS:
A big business/nation/alliance/conglomerate etc. can start a MasterPal/DinersCharge/BricBux/EuroDAQ coin and market it as a PoS. Anyone can do it. All it takes is financial or political power to launch a PoS copy of your favorite flavor of pre-mine and market it. We already saw what marketing can do for copycat coins with Doge. Just wait until the big boys want to clone your pet PoS that you invested in development. They will take your code and not even say 'thank you.' They will put their brand on it and control it according to the regulations that they paid lobbyists to write. The genie is out of the bottle and there is nothing you can do to stop them from kicking sand on your puny little NXT or PPC.

oh sure, since it's too difficult to copy PoW, they will only copy PoS instead. Makes sense.

Right. That's what I said about Doge.

[inBitweTrust]

Any service that offers web server access, is automatically less secure than my private firewalled computer. (assuming I don't install trojan/viruses myself).

This proves you don't understand network security.

Reality:
When comparing your computer connected to the WAN to a server connected to the WAN they are both as secure as they are designed to be. "automatically" doesn't even enter into the discussion.

Most servers are locked down far more than either OSX or Windows OS's even with firewalls. They have to be as they are more valuable targets.

Most Bitcoin hot wallet "hacker attacks" are likely inside jobs where outside hackers are blamed for internal theft.

[CoinHoarder]

BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.

Hes a dumbass, he thinks supply = inflation.

While infact, the inflation rate of USD trumps all. LOL i bet he think gold is also not deflationary.

The joke is on you guys. Block rewards = inflation, and Bitcoin will be in its inflation stage for quite some time.. Our entire lives. At the current price, Bitcoin needs $597,187,500 USD to come into the market yearly to retain its buying power and current evaluation. That is an inflation rate of about 9.8%, as to the bolded... the USD is currently inflating by 2%. 

[cbeast]

BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.

Hes a dumbass, he thinks supply = inflation.

While infact, the inflation rate of USD trumps all. LOL i bet he think gold is also not deflationary.

The joke is on you guys. Block rewards = inflation, and Bitcoin will be in its inflation stage for quite some time.. Our entire lives. At the current price, Bitcoin needs $597,187,500 USD to come into the market yearly to retain its buying power and current evaluation. That is an inflation rate of about 9.8%, as to the bolded... the USD is currently inflating by 2%.

Umm hello... Fiat is inflating by tens of trillions a year if you include shadow banking.

[inBitweTrust]

The joke is on you guys. Block rewards = inflation, and Bitcoin will be in its inflation stage for quite some time.. Our entire lives. At the current price, Bitcoin needs $597,187,500 USD to come into the market yearly to retain its buying power and current evaluation. That is an inflation rate of about 9.8%, as to the bolded...

Well you are correct that BTC is currently inflating and will continue to do so in monetary units until 2140. But technically in the currency marketplace despite Bitcoin inflating in supply it is acting as a deflationary currency because demand outstrips supply. So over the last 5 years USD fiat has lost 99.9999% in value against bitcoin.

the USD is currently inflating by 2%.  

lol... you are drinking the koolaid if you believe this. You are using the incorrect CPI algo here. Try adding in the inflation from what some would call important resources like food and fuel to get a more accurate level of 5-8% in the US. Inflation level in the US is held "low" by the US taxing the rest of the world because it remains the reserve currency in most trade. Once the reserve currency market share starts to drop further I will guarantee you will see those inflation stats of 5-8% grow.

[OrientA]

lol... you are drinking the koolaid if you believe this. You are using the incorrect CPI algo here. Try adding in the inflation from what some would call important resources like food and fuel to get a more accurate level of 5-8% in the US. An inflation level held "low" by the US taxing the rest of the world because it remains the reserve currency in most trade. Once the reserve currency market share starts to drop further I will guarantee you will see those inflation stats of 5-8% grow.

The goods in US are subsidised by the rest of the world because US dollar is a reserve currency.

[CoinHoarder]

BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.

Hes a dumbass, he thinks supply = inflation.

While infact, the inflation rate of USD trumps all. LOL i bet he think gold is also not deflationary.

The joke is on you guys. Block rewards = inflation, and Bitcoin will be in its inflation stage for quite some time.. Our entire lives. At the current price, Bitcoin needs $597,187,500 USD to come into the market yearly to retain its buying power and current evaluation. That is an inflation rate of about 9.8%, as to the bolded... the USD is currently inflating by 2%.

Umm hello... Fiat is inflating by tens of trillions a year if you include shadow banking.

He referenced specifically the US dollar, and that is what my answer was tailored towards.

Your statement is an inaccurate comparison of inflation, because the market cap of Bitcoin is not nearly the size of the market cap of all FIATs combined plus shadow banking. To make an accurate comparison you would need to set Bitcoin's market cap to that of the current market cap of FIAT, or compare the two based on a percentage. Even then you are combining all FIAT currencies and shadow banking, if you are doing that to make the comparison then you should also combine the inflation rate of all PoW cryptos to arrive at an accurate conclusion.

[kokojie]

Any service that offers web server access, is automatically less secure than my private firewalled computer. (assuming I don't install trojan/viruses myself).

This proves you don't understand network security.

Reality:
When comparing your computer connected to the WAN to a server connected to the WAN they are both as secure as they are designed to be. "automatically" doesn't even enter into the discussion.

Most servers are locked down far more than either OSX or Windows OS's even with firewalls. They have to be as they are more valuable targets.

Most Bitcoin hot wallet "hacker attacks" are likely inside jobs where outside hackers are blamed for internal theft.

lol, let's compare again:

Web server:
1. IP address automatically revealed to the world
2. actively offers web access to the world, which is the route of entry for majority of internet based hack attacks.

Private PC:
1. IP address can not be easily obtained
2. firewalled, no port will offer access from the outside

See the difference now? you can't even obtain my private PC's IP address, without some serious big effort, probably NSA level surveillance is needed. Sure my computer is connected to the WAN, but how do you know this computer is mine? there's billions of devices connected to the WAN. Even if you somehow got my IP address, then you need to somehow attack my firewalled PC that does not offer any service to the outside, which is actually not as easy as you think, it's probably nearly impossible to do so.

On the other hand, a web server actively broadcasts its IP address, and also actively offers a route of entry into the server by port 80, and possibly FTP too. Therefore, it's automatically less secure than my private PC, got it now?

[cbeast]

BitsharesX is one of the very few coins that is truly deflationary at this point in time. A lot of coins claim to be deflationary... cough... Bitcoin... but they will be inflationary during our life time.

I am 100% with the OP, PoW is not the best solution to decentralized consensus any longer due to numerous reasons.

Not during our life time? Not sure how old you are but In 1.5 Yrs time, Reward will drop to 12.5 BTC per Block, 4 years from then 6.25 BTC per Block And half again 4 yrs from then, I beleive within 10 yrs, if BTC holds its ground or even gets more ground, Demand will overpower the amount coming from rewards, which in turn = Deflation.

Hes a dumbass, he thinks supply = inflation.

While infact, the inflation rate of USD trumps all. LOL i bet he think gold is also not deflationary.

The joke is on you guys. Block rewards = inflation, and Bitcoin will be in its inflation stage for quite some time.. Our entire lives. At the current price, Bitcoin needs $597,187,500 USD to come into the market yearly to retain its buying power and current evaluation. That is an inflation rate of about 9.8%, as to the bolded... the USD is currently inflating by 2%.

Umm hello... Fiat is inflating by tens of trillions a year if you include shadow banking.

He referenced specifically the US dollar, and that is what my answer was tailored towards.

Your statement is an inaccurate comparison of inflation, because the market cap of Bitcoin is not nearly the size of the market cap of all FIATs combined plus shadow banking. To make an accurate comparison you would need to set Bitcoin's market cap to that of the current market cap of FIAT, or compare the two based on a percentage. Even then you are combining all FIAT currencies and shadow banking, if you are doing that to make the comparison then you should also combine the inflation rate of all PoW cryptos to arrive at an accurate conclusion.

All the altcoins combined are statistically insignificant. The shadow banking system uses dollars by default as it is the reserve currency. My response was glib because Bitcoin inflation is fixed and known. It might as well be zero because the rate is baked in for trading purposes.