It's about time to turn off PoW mining

[inBitweTrust]

See the difference now? you can't even obtain my private PC's IP address, without some serious big effort, probably NSA level surveillance is needed. Then you need to somehow attack my firewalled PC that does not offer any service to the outside, which is actually not as easy as you think, it's probably nearly impossible to do so.

What are you talking about?

Why does a hacker even need to know your IP before you are compromised? Your computer is full of security vulnerabilities. Why do you think it is constantly being patched? All someone needs to target you is your email address or to know what sites you prefer visiting.

All a hacker has to do is trick you by a phishing attack from a spoofed email into visiting a page with a 0 day java/javascript/flash/pdf/ect... vulnerability.

[obocaman]

Wrong, Bitcoin is perfectly fine as it is.

[kokojie]

See the difference now? you can't even obtain my private PC's IP address, without some serious big effort, probably NSA level surveillance is needed. Then you need to somehow attack my firewalled PC that does not offer any service to the outside, which is actually not as easy as you think, it's probably nearly impossible to do so.

What are you talking about?

Why does a hacker even need to know your IP before you are compromised? Your computer is full of security vulnerabilities. Why do you think it is constantly being patched? All someone needs to target you is your email address or to know what sites you prefer visiting.

How do you hack 51 delegate's private computer without knowing their IP address, even assuming their computer all have vulnerabilities?

having OS security patches doesn't mean you can be hacked while firewalled. Mostly these vulnerabilities happen under a very specific scenario, mostly requiring you to visit a malicious website or use a specific application/setting. Otherwise you could just pick a random IP address and hack into it? of course not, the reality is your private firewalled computer is very much safe even when you are connected to WAN, as long as you don't install virus/trojan yourself.

[CoinHoarder]

Wrong, Bitcoin is perfectly fine as it is.

This is the kind of group think that is so common in Bitcoinland that has attracted me to Alt cryptos, and made me a Bitcoin bear despite years of being a Bitcoin bull.

No, it isn't "perfectly fine as is."

This is my opinion on that: http://www.cryptoreview.net/blog/

Anywhere I reference Litecoin, substitute it for Bitcoin as my opinion is the same with both.

[inBitweTrust]

having OS security patches doesn't mean you can be hacked while firewalled. Mostly these vulnerabilities happen under a very specific scenario, mostly requiring you to visit a malicious website or use a specific application/setting.

Yes, and many hackers have a tool bag of exploits they can execute at their disposal when one fails.

How do you hack 51 delegate's private computer without knowing their IP address, even assuming their computer all have vulnerabilities?

Their are many ways to hack the delegates without knowing any IP addresses: phishing attacks , creating malicious sites or landing pages that exploit 0 day vulnerabilities in java/javascript/flash/pdf/ect..., finding a flaw within bitshares itself, and how about starting by targeting these people:

http://bitshares.org/community/team/

All one has to do is compromise one of them and the rest are easily compromised afterwards.

[CoinHoarder]

All the altcoins combined are statistically insignificant. The shadow banking system uses dollars by default as it is the reserve currency. My response was glib because Bitcoin inflation is fixed and known. It might as well be zero because the rate is baked in for trading purposes.

Very well. Sure, Bitcoin compared to the inflation of the dollar (including shadow banking) may look like a saint. However, ~10% inflation is a lot when compared to cryptos that are truly deflationary. The comparison is comparing the lesser of two evils, and I personally would prefer to put money in a long term investment that is truly deflationary, rather than one that is less inflationary than the dollar yet still inflationary.

[kokojie]

having OS security patches doesn't mean you can be hacked while firewalled. Mostly these vulnerabilities happen under a very specific scenario, mostly requiring you to visit a malicious website or use a specific application/setting.

Yes, and many hackers have a tool bag of exploits they can execute at their disposal when one fails.

How do you hack 51 delegate's private computer without knowing their IP address, even assuming their computer all have vulnerabilities?

Their are many ways to hack the delegates without knowing any IP addresses: phishing attacks , creating malicious sites or landing pages that exploit 0 day vulnerabilities in java/javascript/flash/pdf/ect..., finding a flaw within bitshares itself, and how about starting by targeting these people:

http://bitshares.org/community/team/

All one has to do is compromise one of them and the rest are easily compromised afterwards.

These again, requires the person to actually click something, how do you get them to click on something is your first obstacles. Hacking discus fish or ghash.io doesn't require the site admin to click anything, a newly discovered PHP/Apache/Mysql vulnerability may cause both of them to be hacked at the same time, since they already broadcast their IP and offers a route of entry.

Also the delegate's web browsing device is probably not even the same as their node device, which means all your phishing efforts might be useless.

I don't see how compromising one of bitshares developer's computer does anything. Also, again you'd need to find their IP address first or get them to click on something malicious you own (which I don't think you will be very successful at in a techie community).

[raganius]

Just have a look at the OP's post. The moment it hypes that altcoin he does hype he looses all credibility.

First of all: One cannot consider investment in equipment as "money bleed". Go mine gold or uraniun without proper equipment investment...

And, indeed, the Bitcoin network if perfectly fine with PoW. If, and only IF, there's any imbalance going on, the network itself is able to regain its equilibrium, naturally.

Learn:

the economic equilibrium for the mining rate is reached when global electricity costs for mining approximate the value of mining reward plus transaction fees

[kokojie]

Just have a look at the OP's post. The moment it hypes that altcoin he does hype he looses all credibility.

First of all: One cannot consider investment in equipment as "money bleed". Go mine gold or uraniun without proper equipment investment...

And, indeed, the Bitcoin network if perfectly fine with PoW. If, and only IF, there's any imbalance going on the network itself is able to regain its equilibrium, naturally.

Learn:

the economic equilibrium for the mining rate is reached when global electricity costs for mining approximate the value of mining reward plus transaction fees

Except even when coin supply is depleted, Bitcoin will still need to maintain the PoW expense, otherwise the network will become laughablely easy to attack. So it's not a valid comparison. This is more like if you hold gold, a 10% tax is charged every year, perpetually.

[inBitweTrust]

These again, requires the person to actually click something, how do you get them to click on something is your first obstacles.

Even security experts are tricked into clicking on a link by accident from time to time.  You are very mistaken into not realizing how vulnerable we all are when connected to the WAN. This is why I and other professionals use "sneakerware" or air gaped security.

Also the delegate's web browsing device is probably not even the same as their node device, which means all your phishing efforts might be useless.

Once one computer is infected than everything is vulnerable. A worm can travel and infect any device connected on your LAN and any thumb drive and external that is briefly connected to your infected machine. Even if you use an encrypted password manager a hacker can grab screenshots, viewing your copy paste history , or a key logger and will find all your passwords. You are done.

[inBitweTrust]

However, ~10% inflation is a lot when compared to cryptos that are truly deflationary. The comparison is comparing the lesser of two evils, and I personally would prefer to put money in a long term investment that is truly deflationary, rather than one that is less inflationary than the dollar yet still inflationary.

Wait, what crypto is "truly deflationary"?

[kokojie]

These again, requires the person to actually click something, how do you get them to click on something is your first obstacles.

Even security experts are tricked into clicking on a link by accident from time to time.  You are very mistaken into not realizing how vulnerable we all are when connected to the WAN. This is why I and other professionals use "sneakerware" security.

Also the delegate's web browsing device is probably not even the same as their node device, which means all your phishing efforts might be useless.

Once one computer is infected than everything is vulnerable. A worm can travel and infect any device connected on your LAN and any thumb drive and external that is briefly connected to your infected machine. Even if you use an encrypted password manager a hacker can grab screenshots, viewing your copy paste history , or a key logger and will find all your passwords. You are done.

I think this is enough about network security, it has become irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I believe it's far easier to hack discus fish and ghash.io's web server, than to get 51 delegates to click on your malicious link and somehow you obtain their private node device access thru this link. You may believe differently, that's fine. Again, pools being hacked has happened many times in reality. 51 Bitshare delegates being hacked simultaneously has not happened. I will leave the discussion at this fact.

[CoinHoarder]

Just have a look at the OP's post. The moment it hypes that altcoin he does hype he looses all credibility.

First of all: One cannot consider investment in equipment as "money bleed". Go mine gold or uraniun without proper equipment investment...

And, indeed, the Bitcoin network if perfectly fine with PoW. If, and only IF, there's any imbalance going on the network itself is able to regain its equilibrium, naturally.

Learn:

the economic equilibrium for the mining rate is reached when global electricity costs for mining approximate the value of mining reward plus transaction fees

Except even when coin supply is depleted, Bitcoin will still need to maintain the PoW expense, otherwise the network will become laughablely easy to attack. So it's not a valid comparison. This is more like if you hold gold, a 10% tax is charged every year, perpetually.

The comparison is even more flawed than that, as cryptos can be secured with much cheaper and less hardware than PoW by using a PoS variant. Whereas when mining gold, it is necessary to purchase expensive equipment to mine it in any sizable amount. PoS can secure alternative blockchains much cheaper than Bitcoin can at a similar security efficiency. It is like producing the same amount of gold as all the biggest Gold mines put together by using gold panning techniques (which is impossible.)

[inBitweTrust]

I think this is enough about network security, it has become irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I believe it's far easier to hack discus fish and ghash.io's web server, than to get 51 delegates to click on your malicious link and somehow you obtain their private node device access thru this link. You may believe differently, that's fine. Again, pools being hacked has happened many times in reality. 51 Bitshare delegates being hacked simultaneously has not happened. I will leave the discussion at this fact.

They don't need to be hacked simultaneously. Once one of them is compromised it is easy to compromise the other half of delegates.  Very few people change their passwords often or use unique passwords for everything. Most peoples security is laughable. Even many computer geeks have flawed security behaviors as good security is tedious and time consuming.

It is likely that some of them are already partially or completely compromised as we speak. Yes, lets move on because I also agree with you that Bitcoin is vulnerable as well.

[CoinHoarder]

However, ~10% inflation is a lot when compared to cryptos that are truly deflationary. The comparison is comparing the lesser of two evils, and I personally would prefer to put money in a long term investment that is truly deflationary, rather than one that is less inflationary than the dollar yet still inflationary.

Wait, what crypto is "truly deflationary"?

I know this looks bad to keep brining up Bitshares, but it is the truth. Bitshares is one of the only (if not the only...) cryptos that is truly deflationary. Transaction and market fees are destroyed and no more BTSX will ever be printed apart from what was printed in the genesis block.

I noticed kokojie was getting ganged up on ITT, and since I share similar thoughts about PoW I thought I would help him out. So it is known, we are both Bitshares fanboys.. because it solves some of the glaring problems with the mainstream cryptos and the issues with PoW.

[kokojie]

I think this is enough about network security, it has become irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I believe it's far easier to hack discus fish and ghash.io's web server, than to get 51 delegates to click on your malicious link and somehow you obtain their private node device access thru this link. You may believe differently, that's fine. Again, pools being hacked has happened many times in reality. 51 Bitshare delegates being hacked simultaneously has not happened. I will leave the discussion at this fact.

They don't need to be hacked simultaneously. Once one of them is compromised it is easy to compromise the other half of delegates.  Very few people change their passwords often or use unique passwords for everything. Most peoples security is laughable. Even many computer geeks have flawed security behaviors as good security is tedious and time consuming.

It is likely that some of them are already partially or completely compromised as we speak. Yes, lets move on because I also agree with you that Bitcoin is vulnerable as well.

I don't see how hacking one delegate can lead to all other delegate being hacked, since I am actually one of Bitshares 101 delegates, and I have no information regarding other delegates, they are all anonymous to me.

[BreadJoint]

However, ~10% inflation is a lot when compared to cryptos that are truly deflationary. The comparison is comparing the lesser of two evils, and I personally would prefer to put money in a long term investment that is truly deflationary, rather than one that is less inflationary than the dollar yet still inflationary.

Wait, what crypto is "truly deflationary"?

any crypto may be deflationary if its value grows even if it is being mined/minted

gold is considered to be defationary even tho new gold is mined every day

[AltcoinInvestor]

if everyone turns off mining how'll we get confirmations on transactions?

maybe small asic owners should turn off but not all of them

[kokojie]

if everyone turns off mining how'll we get confirmations on transactions?

maybe small asic owners should turn off but not all of them

Maybe my wording gave the wrong impression, I'm actually in favor of a slowly fading out PoW, in the timespan of a year or more. My wording was chosen to create a sense of urgency, but the actual implementation should be a slow process. This means Bitcoin will have a hybrid mining network, where the PoS portion will slowly take over, giving PoW miners time to adjust and formulate their exit strategy.

[inBitweTrust]

I don't see how hacking one delegate can lead to all other delegate being hacked, since I am actually one of Bitshares 101 delegates, and I have no information regarding other delegates, they are all anonymous to me.

I can almost guarantee that likely delegates are found here:
http://bitshares.org/community/team/

and than other delegates can be found by prominent users here:
https://bitsharestalk.org/ and Here https://www.reddit.com/r/BitShares

Humans being social creatures are easily compromised with social engineering and than that can be leveraged by impersonating other prominent members.