It's about time to turn off PoW mining

[CoinHoarder]

The 3 distribution methods where the coins cost money:
IPO - Definitely costs $$$
Proof of Burn - Definitely costs $$$
PoW period then switched to purely PoS - Costs money in the electricity used and time mining in which someone could of mined other cryptocurrencies

As long as the entry is free and everyone with enough resource will get enough coin, the coin's cost will rise, and also comes the risk of one entity controlling more than 50% of hash power, this is how free market works. If you artificially create some barrier to prevent new joiners to dominate the market, then very quickly new people will abandon the game, since they have no chance to win majority.

I don't get what you are alluding to in this paragraph, as the entry to owning/mining PoW coins is not free, you have to buy coins or buy mining hardware. Someone investing a lot in an IPO is no different than someone buying a lot of Bitcoins or buying a lot of mining hardware. Someone investing a little into the IPO is no different than someone buying a small amount or Bitcoins or a small amount of mining hardware. The barriers are the same, the important part is that everyone has an equal chance. IPOs are generally announced way ahead of time and everyone has a fair chance to invest or not invest, there no barriers to entry.. none more than exist with Bitcoin. This is like complaining about early adopters to Bitcoin and I don't see how this fits into the PoW vs PoS debate. Just because someone didn't know about Bitcoin in 2011 does not make Bitcoin unfair, the same curtesy in your reasoning should be rewarded to purely PoS coins.

Actually this is also a worry for bitcoin, which have less and less coin generation every 4 years. What is the purpose of investing in one asset while most of this asset is controlled by a few? The good thing with bitcoin is that no matter how much coin you hold, you don't gain more than the coin itself. This will force people to spend the coin sooner or later, thus flattening the coin distribution. If the coins holding will grant you some kind of privilege over new comers, then it becomes a kind of private elite club, and kill the coin over time.

@ The past few posters in this thread, please read this so I don't have to type it multiple times: All PoS implementations do not function in the same ways, in some cases they function drastically different, so you cannot simply form your opinions on the Nxt or Peercoin's form of PoS. Please take the time to educate yourselves on the different variants of PoS before talking about them and spreading misconceptions.

The past few posters ITT, you including, don't understand that PoS has been improved upon recently. You are referring to the Peercoin and Nxt implementations of PoS where you must hold the coins in your wallet for a certain amount of time or a certain number of blocks before minting or forging is possible. Bitshares' Delegated proof of stake doesn't have these issues, you can spend your coins whenever you would like and still receive similar benefits as Nxt or Peercoin. Furthermore, Peercoin's PoS results in monetary inflation, whereas Bitshares' DPoS is deflationary (unlike pretty much any cryptocurrency out there, Bitcoin included.)

In delegated proof of stake that is not the case, as the amount of stake you own is proportional to the amount of voting power you have to select who will secure the network. These people are called Delegates, and are voted into and out of power by stake holders. Whereas Bitcoin prints new Bitcoins to incentivize miners to secure the network, a delegated proof of stake coin pays delegates a portion of the cryptocurrency's fees from transactions (like Bitcoin will way past our lifetimes when all 21 million Bitcoin's are mined.) Furthermore, delegated proof of stake provides more security in less amount of time than with other PoS currencies, Bitcoin included as by the time Bitcoin transactions are considered irreversible (6 confirmations), a DPoS transaction is already confirmed by 100% of the shareholders through their elected delegates.

In BitsharesX, the cryptocurrency that first implemented DPoS, there are 101 delegates who all split each block's transaction fees evenly. Each delegate then decides for themselves what percentage of their portion of the fees they will keep as payment for their services to secure the block chain, and a delegates "pay rate" can affect their campaign to get voted in as a delegate or not as some (a lot?) of voters take it into consideration. The percentage of fees that each delegate has decided they won't keep are destroyed. Every stake holder benefits from this destruction of fees equally proportional to the amount of stake they own, as no more coins will be printed other than what was conceived in the genesis block. This is why BitsharesX is one of the first truly deflationary cryptocurrencies (if not the first.)

Furthermore, it is believed within the Bitshares community that DPoS is immune to the "nothing at stake" attack that people harp on PoS for so often. Anyone feel free to prove us wrong regarding the NaS attack, as you will save me a lot of time supporting something that isn't genuinely secure.

More about DPoS: http://bitshares.org/delegated-proof-of-stake/
Even more about DPoS: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DPOS
Old discussions on DPoS: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4009.0
Discussions regarding "nothing at stake" attacks: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6584.0
More discussion about NaS attack: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6638.0

The real demand for oversea transaction and merchant acceptance are relatively small compared to investment and speculative demand. Financial investors are usually very smart, any weakness in the distribution design will shun those people away.

No cryptocurrency, FIAT currency, or any currency or commodity for that matter is distributed evenly. It is impossible to distribute ownership of currency in a fair manner, someone will always feel like they got the short end of the stick.

[cbeast]

Delegated Proof of Stake sounds a lot like Central Bank.

[CoinHoarder]

Delegated Proof of Stake sounds a lot like Central Bank.

Care to elaborate?

Do you mean BitsharesX, or DPoS ?? It sounds like maybe you meant BitsharesX. DPoS could be implemented without a decentralized exchange and market pegged assets, or without any features at all for that matter.

[pandalion98]

Delegated Proof of Stake sounds a lot like Central Bank.

Care to elaborate?

Do you mean BitsharesX, or DPoS ?? It sounds like maybe you meant BitsharesX. DPoS could be implemented without a decentralized exchange and market pegged assets, or without any features at all for that matter.

I think he meant DPoS.

[cbeast]

Delegated Proof of Stake sounds a lot like Central Bank.

Care to elaborate?

Do you mean BitsharesX, or DPoS ?? It sounds like maybe you meant BitsharesX. DPoS could be implemented without a decentralized exchange and market pegged assets, or without any features at all for that matter.

I think he meant DPoS.

Both, actually. No matter how a PoS is implemented, delegated or not, it is backed by social networking. Social networking is subject to social engineering and all the political games that humans play. This is the business of government. I can see why some people might find that using authority is more effective than using really hard science and math to invent better and faster technology to improve efficiency. But it's not. Relying on authority, even if you call it a Republic or a Democracy will lead to failure. Central banks always find a way to worm their way into any economy and cryptocurrency is no different. Having said that, I like the idea of a DPoS if it is managed by a superpower that can back it with a strong standing army and weapons of mass destruction. Everyone else will use PoW.

[CoinHoarder]

Delegated Proof of Stake sounds a lot like Central Bank.

Care to elaborate?

Do you mean BitsharesX, or DPoS ?? It sounds like maybe you meant BitsharesX. DPoS could be implemented without a decentralized exchange and market pegged assets, or without any features at all for that matter.

I think he meant DPoS.

I know he said DPoS, but that criticism doesn't make any sense to me. A decentralized consensus algorithm can do nothing that central banks usually do.

If he is referring to the BitsharesX then I think he is twisting the truth a bit, because BitsharesX does not engage in fractional reserve banking. Collateral is held (they aren't printing money) and the position is released if someone runs out of collateral. Also, BTSX itself cannot perform most functions that a central bank can.

There is one resemblance to a central bank in that interest rates are programmed into the client for the Bitassets. The Bitassets (bitUSD, bitCNY, bitBTC, bitGOLD, etc) gain interest by giving owners of those bitassets a portion of trading and transaction fees. Other than that, the only main relation to a central bank is that it can peg a Bitasset to the value of FIAT, but even then the value of that is controlled by central banks and not by BitsharesX itself.

[CoinHoarder]

Delegated Proof of Stake sounds a lot like Central Bank.

Care to elaborate?

Do you mean BitsharesX, or DPoS ?? It sounds like maybe you meant BitsharesX. DPoS could be implemented without a decentralized exchange and market pegged assets, or without any features at all for that matter.

Both, actually. No matter how a PoS is implemented, delegated or not, it is backed by social networking. Social networking is subject to social engineering and all the political games that humans play. This is the business of government. I can see why some people might find that using authority is more effective than using really hard science and math to invent better and faster technology to improve efficiency. But it's not. Relying on authority, even if you call it a Republic or a Democracy will lead to failure. Central banks always find a way to worm their way into any economy and cryptocurrency is no different. Having said that, I like the idea of a DPoS if it is managed by a superpower that can back it with a strong standing army and weapons of mass destruction. Everyone else will use PoW.

You are kidding yourself if you think Bitcoin isn't full of social networking, social engineering, and politics itself.

Social networking, politics.... What do you think everyone is doing on these forums 24x7?

Relying on authority.... core developers & ASIC miners

Central banks get a cut in the Bitcoin ecosystem via exchange's cooperation with banks, crypto debit cards, fees regarding regulations, and taxes

I haven't seen a Bitcoin army around other than religious Bitcoin zealots... I doubt they have WMDs though and they aren't really all that intimidating considering they mostly hang out on the interwebs.  

[cbeast]

Delegated Proof of Stake sounds a lot like Central Bank.

Care to elaborate?

Do you mean BitsharesX, or DPoS ?? It sounds like maybe you meant BitsharesX. DPoS could be implemented without a decentralized exchange and market pegged assets, or without any features at all for that matter.

Both, actually. No matter how a PoS is implemented, delegated or not, it is backed by social networking. Social networking is subject to social engineering and all the political games that humans play. This is the business of government. I can see why some people might find that using authority is more effective than using really hard science and math to invent better and faster technology to improve efficiency. But it's not. Relying on authority, even if you call it a Republic or a Democracy will lead to failure. Central banks always find a way to worm their way into any economy and cryptocurrency is no different. Having said that, I like the idea of a DPoS if it is managed by a superpower that can back it with a strong standing army and weapons of mass destruction. Everyone else will use PoW.

You are kidding yourself if you think Bitcoin isn't full of social networking, social engineering, and politics itself.

Social networking, politics.... What do you think everyone is doing on these forums 24x7?

Relying on authority.... core developers & ASIC miners

Central banks get a cut in the Bitcoin ecosystem via exchange's cooperation with banks, regulations, and taxes

I haven't seen a Bitcoin army around other than religious Bitcoin zealots... I doubt they have WMDs though and they aren't really all that intimidating considering they mostly hang out on the interwebs.  

I can't wait for computer scientists, mathematicians, and research scientists to find a PoW that cures cancer or some other splendid science. Then we can change the protocol. Or perhaps the PoW technology will simply be heating our homes and cooking our food. You do realize that I am not against PoS. I am simply calling BS on anyone calling PoS more fair than gold, silver, or PoW as money. I will accept a governments money if they implement a PoS as much as I trust that government with anything.


Ask yourself how this photo makes you feel? If you feel nothing, then PoS is for you.

[devphp]

Oh come on, what does this photo have to do with anything? How many Bitcoins have you personally donated to starving children in Africa? Don't make it sound like Bitcoiners are concerned about anything but enriching themselves, just like any other normal people.

[cbeast]

Oh come on, what does this photo have to do with anything? How many Bitcoins have you personally donated to starving children in Africa? Don't make it sound like Bitcoiners are concerned about anything but enriching themselves, just like any other normal people.

I am helping people in the Philippines. There are plenty of starving people here. More importantly I am teaching them about cryptocurrencies and how it can improve their economy and reduce poverty. I am just one person and doing what I can. The Filipinos I have spoken with seem to understand the concept of PoW and its importance. I'm not judging you. You have to look in your own mirror-neurons.

[devphp]

Oh come on, what does this photo have to do with anything? How many Bitcoins have you personally donated to starving children in Africa? Don't make it sound like Bitcoiners are concerned about anything but enriching themselves, just like any other normal people.

I am helping people in the Philippines. There are plenty of starving people here. More importantly I am teaching them about cryptocurrencies and how it can improve their economy and reduce poverty. I am just one person and doing what I can. The Filipinos I have spoken with seem to understand the concept of PoW and its importance. I'm not judging you. You have to look in your own mirror-neurons.

The value of Bitcoins you help the starving with comes from other investors throwing fiat into those Bitcoins. It's not just you helping, it's all those suckers that invested their hard earned cash. Yes, you took the risk and mined it early, but it didn't cost you anywhere close to what it did cost those that bought at $1000 in December. Now, how is this all related to PoW vs PoS debate? You try to make PoS look evil by posting this picture? This is laughable tactics.

[CoinHoarder]

Oh come on, what does this photo have to do with anything? How many Bitcoins have you personally donated to starving children in Africa? Don't make it sound like Bitcoiners are concerned about anything but enriching themselves, just like any other normal people.

Imagine the amount of food that could be bought for the starving children in Africa with the amount Bitcoin miners spend on electricity every year if it used a PoS variant.

In December of 2013 it was estimated at $15 million USD a day, and look at how much the difficulty has grown since then.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/03/fascinating-number-bitcoin-mining-uses-15-millions-worth-of-electricity-every-day/

I'm sure Bitcoiners would spend it all on a good cause if they switched over.

[TrianglePythagoras]

The only reason why I feel it should be turned off is because of the confirmation times.

[OrientA]

Oh come on, what does this photo have to do with anything? How many Bitcoins have you personally donated to starving children in Africa? Don't make it sound like Bitcoiners are concerned about anything but enriching themselves, just like any other normal people.

Imagine the amount of food that could be bought for the starving children in Africa with the amount Bitcoin miners spend in electricity on its security every year if it used a PoS variant.

In December of 2013 it was estimated at $15 million USD a day, and look at how much the difficulty has grown since then.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/03/fascinating-number-bitcoin-mining-uses-15-millions-worth-of-electricity-every-day/

I'm sure Bitcoiners would spend it all on a good cause if they switched over.

Good thought. But why not are the PoS coins adopted and used?

[cbeast]

Oh come on, what does this photo have to do with anything? How many Bitcoins have you personally donated to starving children in Africa? Don't make it sound like Bitcoiners are concerned about anything but enriching themselves, just like any other normal people.

Imagine the amount of food that could be bought for the starving children in Africa with the amount Bitcoin miners spend in electricity on its security every year if it used a PoS variant.

In December of 2013 it was estimated at $15 million USD a day, and look at how much the difficulty has grown since then.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/03/fascinating-number-bitcoin-mining-uses-15-millions-worth-of-electricity-every-day/

I'm sure Bitcoiners would spend it all on a good cause if they switched over.

Good thought. But why not are the PoS coins adopted and used?

Exactly. Folks get tired of the same old refuted arguments for PoS.

[devphp]

Good thought. But why not are the PoS coins adopted and used?

How adopted and used was Bitcoin when it was <1 year old?

Besides, the current 1 tps (90% of which is speculators) for the entire world in Bitcoin network now is not a lot of adoption. It's all relative. Crypto currencies are still at their baby stage.

[cbeast]

Good thought. But why not are the PoS coins adopted and used?

How adopted and used was Bitcoin when it was <1 year old?

Besides, the current 1 tps (90% of which is speculators) for the entire world in Bitcoin network now is not a lot of adoption. It's all relative. Crypto currencies are still at their baby stage.

Why aren't you pestering the Dogecoin and Litecoin message boards. Were they assigned to someone else?

[kodtycoon]

Good thought. But why not are the PoS coins adopted and used?

How adopted and used was Bitcoin when it was <1 year old?

Besides, the current 1 tps (90% of which is speculators) for the entire world in Bitcoin network now is not a lot of adoption. It's all relative. Crypto currencies are still at their baby stage.

Why aren't you pestering the Dogecoin and Litecoin message boards. Were they assigned to someone else?

because they are not actively fighting PoS and trying to make it out to be a total scam.. you brought it on yourself.

ps.. that photo.. you should be ashamed trying to use that as "ammo" against PoS.. its completely unrelated and god damn hypocritical. if anything that picture could be used in an anti-PoW campaign. as mentioned above, the amount of money spent on electricity and mining equipment would go a long way to helping those people and you try to use it as a weapon against proof of stake which doesnt waste valuable resources? not even to mention the rare minerals/metals/whatever that are required to build most electronics INCLUDING MINING EQUIPMENT that get mined in places like africa destroying their land and the workers getting payed so little they are basically slaves. fucking disgrace that you post a photo like that to try to further your anti-PoS campaign.. as bad as the god damn catholic church if you ask me.

god damn vested interests... thats all this is..

[inBitweTrust]

god damn vested interests... thats all this is..

You bring up a good point. There certainly are vested interests psychologically in the mindset of users, fears from users making such a large change, and vested interests from ASIC manufacturers and miners. These reasons make this thread really just a thought exercise and ultimately futile. There are some things which are unlikely to ever change with Bitcoin : 21 million cap, PoW consensus, ect...

I would suggest everyone else that prefers PoS and DPoS to quickly sell their bitcoins to the rest of us and invest in their alts. If they are right than we will follow in time and you will benefit for being an early adopter.

What is annoying is when certain individuals are paid to promote an alt or have a sizable investment where they are trying to pump their alt on different forums. This thread is borderline in its appropriateness for not being in the alt section, but others I have seen are just spam.

[kodtycoon]

Actually the mining cost of the whole network is what backs bitcoin's value.  Since digital currency is not backed by any government or physical assets, the only thing that can baseline its value is the cost, no cost = no value. I can not think of anything that has value without a cost

Of course the cost means the lowest possible cost, which is already very energy efficient today. If you do those hashes using CPU you will cost millions of times more electricity

water... water has value and is free.. depending on where you live of course.. are you charged to breath the air you breath? what value would you put on the air you breath? if suddenly there was a 10k dollar valuation put on the air you breath and you knew you wouldnt get the air if you didnt pay would you pay it if you had the money? what if it was 100k.. would you pay if you had the money? 1 million if you had the money? but it cost nothing to produce of course you wouldnt right? you would rather die than pay money for something that cost nothing to produce right?

does the air we breath have a cost to produce? no.. obviously if we keep using up natural resources it could incur a cost to produce in the future.. but as it stands it costs nothing to produce, yet is probably the most valuable thing on the planet. bare in mind value and price are not the same. if governments thought they had half a chance of charging for the air we breath dont you think they would.. havnt most govs privatised water and started charging everyone for that?

if something has a lot of value.. people will pay for it.. UNLESS.. there is an "unlimited"(enough to go around for a very long time) supply.

proof of stake currencies are a perfect example staring you straight in the face. currently how many proof of stake coins in the top twenty cost ZERO in resources to produce and run(excluding living expenses of the dev)? and do these coins that cost nothing to produce and run have value? yes because they have value, there is NOT an unlimited supply and therefore people are willing to pay for them. saying currencies need a cost to produce in order to have value is completely false.

in short.. " no cost = no value" is totally incorrect.