It's about time to turn off PoW mining

[OrientA]

I would like to rephrase my question.

If a coin has both PoS and PoW, is it more secure than a coin with either PoS or PoW only?

[achimsmile]

At least PoS has some positive attributes.

I think that is as close as we can get to agreeing with each other  

It should not be a war between PoW and PoS, but between crypto and fiat. Both Bitcoin and Nxt are great ideas and they can get mass adoption in the long term.

[cbeast]

I would like to rephrase my question.

If a coin has both PoS and PoW, is it more secure than a coin with either PoS or PoW only?

Security has been a non-issue since PGP was created for email. All of them are secure. Trust is the issue between them. When you make a transaction, will it actually go through? That is the current debate.

[kodtycoon]

I would like to rephrase my question.

If a coin has both PoS and PoW, is it more secure than a coin with either PoS or PoW only?

when it's in pow phase it is as secure as pow and same goes for pos phase.. How it achieved consensus in the past has zero effect on the present or future

[OrientA]

So a coin with combined PoS and PoW can be attacked both ways? I thought if a coin with combined PoW and PoS, an attack has to attack PoW and PoS part simultaneously.

[cbeast]

So a coin with combined PoS and PoW can be attacked both ways? I thought if a coin with combined PoW and PoS, an attack has to attack PoW and PoS part simultaneously.

Coins themselves can't be attacked. Only your ability to spend or receive them can be attacked.

[OrientA]

So a coin with combined PoS and PoW can be attacked both ways? I thought if a coin with combined PoW and PoS, an attack has to attack PoW and PoS part simultaneously.

Coins themselves can't be attacked. Only your ability to spend or receive them can be attacked.

Sorry, I mean the coin network.

[inBitweTrust]

I would like to rephrase my question.

If a coin has both PoS and PoW, is it more secure than a coin with either PoS or PoW only?

Depends on the implementation, possibly a workable PoR might be best if someone can get the incentives right in the algorithm . Generally, since they both have differing strengths and weaknesses, combining the 2 would be more secure at the cost of a greater expense(DPoS and PoS is cheaper to secure but has some serious drawbacks).

Here are some higher level discussions on TaPoS vs PoS vs PoW:

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/    (yes, there are many solutions to solve PoW weaknesses, some of which require nothing but time itself)
http://the-iland.net/static/downloads/TransactionsAsProofOfStake.pdf
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/05/stake/

After reading this you will see that a NaS attack is indeed real but their are possible solutions to solve this weakness. TaPoS was one of them but it appears Daniel Larimer couldn't flesh out the details and a workable balance and than just settled on DPoS instead. DPoS still has multiple vulnerabilities and can be attacked with a long range NaS attack but is complicated by politics which adds a layer that both strengthens it and weakens it in different and complex ways. So you should be skeptical about those who claim that NaS (Nothing at Stake) is fictional and those that claim that there cannot be possible future solutions to secure PoS from NaS attacks.

The Nxt team of partially secret developers(the lack of a diverse developer pool and secrecy is a security concern in itself -- https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-core-developer-jeff-garzik-believes-nxt-is-a-scamcoin/ ) are still fleshing out the whitepaper and new consensus algorithm so we really cannot fully weigh the strengths and weaknesses of the proposed future in "Transparent Forging"

[achimsmile]

The Nxt team of partially secret developers(the lack of a diverse developer pool , auditing, and secrecy is a security concern in itself -- https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-core-developer-jeff-garzik-believes-nxt-is-a-scamcoin/ ) are still fleshing out the whitepaper and new consensus algorithm so we really cannot fully weigh the strengths and weaknesses of the proposed future in "Transparent Forging"

"lack of a diverse dev pool" 

jean-luc, come-from-beyond, kushti, lyaffe, holgerd77, wesleyh (client), jl777 (non core), marcus 03 (non-core) and all other non core devs, are not enough for you?

"partially secret developers" ...satoshi was anon as well?

Whitepaper is here: https://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/Whitepaper:Nxt

The only point I give you is transparent forging. Let's wait until it is implemented (supposedly this year)

[inBitweTrust]

jean-luc, come-from-beyond, kushti, lyaffe, holgerd77, wesleyh (client), jl777 (non core), marcus 03 (non-core) and all other non core devs, are not enough for you?

"partially secret developers" ...satoshi was anon as well?

Mentioning a lack of whitepaper was in reference to a lack of the final whitepaper. Transparent Forging is quite a departure from the current Nxt PoS consensus algo that you may as well call it a new coin(with previous stakeholders still in control.)

Satoshi being anonymous doesn't matter when most of the bitcoin protocol has been re-written , audited, and peer reviewed by many different security analysts and developers with different backgrounds and specialties.

Yes , your paltry list of developers is not enough for something as important as an international currency with a large market cap. 8-20 developers is pathetic compared to Bitcoin's 250+ minimum that worked on the core alone, let alone the thousand other developers working on other wallets , aps, and other implementations which interact with the bitcoin blockchain(how many implementations does Nxt have.... 1?). We need far more testers and developers working with bitcoin to make it secure, and your boast listing 8 devs shows you really have a lot to learn when it comes to securing such a large open source project.

[devphp]

I wonder what all these hundreds of Bitcoin developers actually coded over the years if NXT already can do so much more than Bitcoin and more functions are coming.

[OrientA]

jean-luc, come-from-beyond, kushti, lyaffe, holgerd77, wesleyh (client), jl777 (non core), marcus 03 (non-core) and all other non core devs, are not enough for you?

"partially secret developers" ...satoshi was anon as well?

Satoshi being anonymous doesn't matter when most of the bitcoin protocol has been re-written , audited, and peer reviewed by many different security analysts and developers with different backgrounds and specialties.

Yes , your paltry list of developers is not enough for something as important as an international currency with a large market cap. 8-20 developers is pathetic compared to Bitcoin's 250+ minimum that worked on the core alone, let alone the thousand other developers working on other wallets , aps, and other implementations which interact with the bitcoin blockchain(how many implementations does Nxt have.... 1?). We need far more testers and developers working with bitcoin to make it secure, and your boast listing 8 devs shows you really have a lot to learn when it comes to securing such a large open source project.

But NXT is still growing.

[inBitweTrust]

But NXT is still growing.

And so is Bitcoin... and if you understand the importance of the network effect, Bitcoin may have reached a critical thresh-hold where nothing can reach it.

I wonder what all these hundreds of Bitcoin developers actually coded over the years if NXT already can do so much more than Bitcoin and more functions are coming.

Why wonder what they have done? You can see their commits , discussions, proposals , motivations, if you cared to bother looking.

People often get confused by the fact that the development of bitcoin is very modular and the core protocol has remained simple. This is not only by design but most of the
work the developers have done with the core protocol is to clean up Satoshi's sloppy code and make things simpler and more modular.

It is a good thing that bitcoin is simple and other aps and implementations interact with the BTC blockchain.

Name me one thing Nxt can do that BTC cannot.

To save you time Bitcoin already does -

colored coins/counterparty for decentralized asset exchange
Darkwallet for extra privacy with stealth addresses and coinjoin
darkmarket/openbazaar for decentralized marketplace marketplace
greenaddress/coinbase/circle/bitpay/open transactions/ect... for instant confirmations
Merge mined Namecoin for decentralized DNS
Merge mined Namecoin for decentralized NameID/openID
twister for decentralized blogging platform
All sorts of custom code written for exchanges which allow prediction markets, shorting, options, asset trading, ect....

ect....

It is a marketing lie that these "Next generation" cryptocurrencies have more features and development than Bitcoin.
I can name a hell of a lot development Bitcoin has done that other currencies lack however.

How about the quantity of choice in smartphone wallets, hot wallets , standalone wallets, multi-sig wallets?
How about all the API's and frameworks written?
How about all the documentation and research?
How about all of the current and soon to be released Bitcoin Hardware wallets?
How about the Bitcoin ATM's?
How about the Bitcoin POS devices for merchants?
How about the numerous Bitcoin implementations written in many different frameworks and code?

I am not suggesting their isn't some interesting work being done in various alts.... merely a majority of the development is happening
within the Bitcoin ecosystem.

[kodtycoon]

But NXT is still growing.

And so is Bitcoin... and if you understand the importance of the network effect, Bitcoin may have reached a critical thresh-hold where nothing can reach it.

I wonder what all these hundreds of Bitcoin developers actually coded over the years if NXT already can do so much more than Bitcoin and more functions are coming.

Why wonder what they have done? You can see their commits , discussions, proposals , motivations, if you cared to bother looking.

People often get confused by the fact that the development of bitcoin is very modular and the core protocol has remained simple. This is not only by design but most of the
work the developers have done with the core protocol is to clean up Satoshi's sloppy code and make things simpler and more modular.

It is a good thing that bitcoin is simple and other aps and implementations interact with the BTC blockchain.

Name me one thing Nxt can do that BTC cannot.

To save you time Bitcoin already does -

colored coins/counterparty for decentralized asset exchange
Darkwallet for extra privacy with stealth addresses and coinjoin
darkmarket/openbazaar for decentralized marketplace marketplace
greenaddress/coinbase/circle/bitpay/open transactions/ect... for instant confirmations
Merge mined Namecoin for decentralized DNS
Merge mined Namecoin for decentralized NameID/openID
twister for decentralized blogging platform
All sorts of custom code written for exchanges which allow prediction markets, shorting, options, asset trading, ect....

ect....

It is a marketing lie that these "Next generation" cryptocurrencies have more features and development than Bitcoin.
I can name a hell of a lot development Bitcoin has done that other currencies lack however.

can you do all those functions from within a bitcoin client with out converting from one currency to another? Nope... Also the best ones aren't even released yet. Terrible defence I have to say.. Pick up your game or youl be on the bench son

[inBitweTrust]

can you do all those functions from within a bitcoin client with out converting from one currency to another? Nope... Also the best ones aren't even released yet. Terrible defence I have to say.. Pick up your game or youl be on the bench son

Bitcoin client? Which one?

All of those solutions I mentioned interact and depend upon the Bitcoin protocol to function.

I can tell you are not a developer or programmer. Integrating all of those functions directly within the Bitcoin core protocol is a recipe for disaster in terms of future bugs and security holes.

No, I want Bitcoin to remain a simple and efficient consensus mechanism where I have a choice as to what implementations and feature combinations to use.

Again, what can Nxt do that BTC cannot?

[kodtycoon]

can you do all those functions from within a bitcoin client with out converting from one currency to another? Nope... Also the best ones aren't even released yet. Terrible defence I have to say.. Pick up your game or youl be on the bench son

Bitcoin client? Which one?

All of those solutions I mentioned interact and depend upon the Bitcoin protocol to function.

I can tell you are not a developer or programmer. Integrating all of those functions directly within the Bitcoin core protocol is a recipe for disaster in terms of future bugs and security holes.

No, I want Bitcoin to remain a simple and efficient consensus mechanism where I have a choice as to what implementations and feature combinations to use.

Again, what can Nxt do that BTC cannot?

www.nxttechnologytree.com
Www.multigateway.com or. Org

[inBitweTrust]

www.nxttechnologytree.com
Www.multigateway.com or. Org

Nope, Between those 2 links Bitcoin is further ahead on features and I don't see any feature that Nxt has completed that isn't done in Bitcoin already:

Here are 3 more features Bitcoin already does:
Bitmessage - decentralized , Encrypted messaging
bitcongress - decentralized  voting
coinprism - decentralized assets / smart properties /stocks

colored coins/counterparty for decentralized asset exchange
Darkwallet for extra privacy with stealth addresses and coinjoin
darkmarket/openbazaar for decentralized marketplace marketplace
greenaddress/coinbase/circle/bitpay/open transactions/ect... for instant confirmations
Merge mined Namecoin for decentralized DNS
Merge mined Namecoin for decentralized NameID/openID
twister for decentralized blogging platform
All sorts of custom code written for exchanges which allow prediction markets, shorting, options, asset trading, ect....


So again, what specifically can Nxt accomplish that BTC cannot right now?
 

[kodtycoon]

www.nxttechnologytree.com
Www.multigateway.com or. Org

Nope, Between those 2 links Bitcoin is further ahead on features and I don't see any feature that Nxt has completed that isn't done in Bitcoin already:

Here are 3 more features Bitcoin already does:
Bitmessage - decentralized , Encrypted messaging
bitcongress - decentralized  voting
coinprism - decentralized assets / smart properties /stocks

colored coins/counterparty for decentralized asset exchange
Darkwallet for extra privacy with stealth addresses and coinjoin
darkmarket/openbazaar for decentralized marketplace marketplace
greenaddress/coinbase/circle/bitpay/open transactions/ect... for instant confirmations
Merge mined Namecoin for decentralized DNS
Merge mined Namecoin for decentralized NameID/openID
twister for decentralized blogging platform
All sorts of custom code written for exchanges which allow prediction markets, shorting, options, asset trading, ect....


So again, what specifically can Nxt accomplish that BTC cannot right now?
 

those are all things built around bitcoin.. counter party is slow as hell 10 min conformations to trading is slow as shit compared to nxt's 1m conformations.. darkwallet is not even released and has been in development so long iv lost hope for it to become a real thing.. my money is on btcd's teleport being released before that. greenaddress/coinbase/circle/bitpay/open transactions/ect are all centralised 3rd parties afaik perhaps bar open transactions?? they are not instant transactions from one bitcoin address to another only using the bitcoin protocol. merged mining is not a feature.. having to sell you bitcoin to get namecoin is moving from one protocol to another to use a feature.. not a feature in the bitcoin protocol...

basically everything you have mentioned is ether using a different protocol or a 3rd party and none of it you can do by only downloading the bitcoin protocol on its own.. it  all requires extra downloads plug ins or another protocol.

how many different types of transactions can the bitcoin protocol make? thats what matters because its the different types of transactions that allow for different features to be built into a 2.0 protocol afaik. just because features are added to the core it does not mean the platform will be riddled with bugs.. nxt has god knows how many types of transactions going into the blockchain for multiple different features that are built in to the core, if there were plenty of bugs do you not think all these 2.0 haters would be going out of their way to exploit them and bring nxt down?

my answer is just your question reworded. because bitcoin the protocol on its own cannot do anything that nxt can with out the use of a 3rd party or alternate blockchain.

So again, what specifically can bitcoin accomplish that NXT cannot with out the use of a 3rd party or alternate blockchainright now?

do you really think having to download a different piece of software for every little different feature is user friendly? stop trying to make it sound like bitcoin is flexible..

everything nxt can do is built into the platform its self and comes in one package. everything you are saying bitcoin can do, is not bitcoin the protocol. its 3rd party software that you have to download and run in parallel to the bitcoin software. so its not bitcoin. its other software that does all that.. everything you say bitcoin can do, even though its not bitcoin, nxt can do in one download using only one piece of software apposed to multiple different bits of software to work in some frankenstien style type mix of software.

have you ever even used nxt?

[inBitweTrust]

those are all things built around bitcoin..

No , they are all dependent upon bitcoin and if you cannot see why being modular is important than you really have a lot to learn about flexibility, choice, and security.

darkwallet is not even released  

False, I have been using darkwallet for some time now. Most of those PoS apps are in dev as well and have far less testing than Bitcoin apps.

greenaddress/coinbase/circle/bitpay/open transactions/ect are all centralised 3rd parties afaik perhaps bar open transactions??  they are not instant transactions from one bitcoin address to another only using the bitcoin protocol.

Off chain transactions have their purpose as they remove blockchain bloat.

merged mining is not a feature.. having to sell you bitcoin to get namecoin is moving from one protocol to another to use a feature.

Yes, namecoin is dependent upon Bitcoin PoW; that is what secures it. Why does everything have to be on the same blockchain? In the future BTC will interact with thousands of blockchains
with either sidechains or treechains. This is a good thing.

downloading the bitcoin protocol on its own

This statement is nonsensical and expresses that you don't understand what is being downloaded and what role the bitcoin protocol serves. Are you talking about the "Bitcoin Core" client(Serving the role as 1 variation of a wallet and one type of full node only)? That isn't the Bitcoin Protocol.

how many different types of transactions can the bitcoin protocol make?

Yes, all of the above transactions and features are handled by the Bitcoin protocol. Are you conflating Bitcoin Core with the Bitcoin Protocol?

do you really think having to download a different piece of software for every little different feature is user friendly? stop trying to make it sound like bitcoin is flexible..

Why isn't there one app on your smartphone that does everything? Why isn't there one program in your computer that does everything? Why are all these apps and programs
modular and separate? There are good reasons for this that I don't have time to give you a full lecture on, but think about it.

have you ever even used nxt?

Yes, but I haven't tested bitshares yet. It does have an certain advantage in that there are many functions within the same application. With bitcoin their are certain wallets that have more or different functions than others, it really depends up on what you want to use. Their are some wallets in BTC that have messaging, some that have other assets as well, the ability to forge or mine wouldn't apply with a current bitcoin wallet anymore, some that have news and integrate in with shopping.

Perhaps you haven't kept up with all the choices/development in the bitcoin world and are merely comparing bitcoin core client to Nxt Wallet?

[kodtycoon]

those are all things built around bitcoin..

No , they are all dependent upon bitcoin and if you cannot see why being modular is important than you really have a lot to learn about flexibility, choice, and security.

darkwallet is not even released  

False, I have been using darkwallet for some time now. Most of those PoS apps are in dev as well and have far less testing than Bitcoin apps.

greenaddress/coinbase/circle/bitpay/open transactions/ect are all centralised 3rd parties afaik perhaps bar open transactions??  they are not instant transactions from one bitcoin address to another only using the bitcoin protocol.

Off chain transactions have their purpose as they remove blockchain bloat.

merged mining is not a feature.. having to sell you bitcoin to get namecoin is moving from one protocol to another to use a feature.

Yes, namecoin is dependent upon Bitcoin PoW; that is what secures it. Why does everything have to be on the same blockchain. In the future BTC will interact with thousands of blockchains
with either sidechains or treechains. This is a good thing.

downloading the bitcoin protocol on its own

This statement is nonsensical and expresses that you don't understand what is being downloaded and what role the bitcoin protocol serves. Are you talking about the "Bitcoin Core" client, because that isn't the Bitcoin Protocol?

how many different types of transactions can the bitcoin protocol make?

Yes, all of the above transactions and features are handled by the Bitcoin protocol. Are you conflating Bitcoin Core with the Bitcoin Protocol?

do you really think having to download a different piece of software for every little different feature is user friendly? stop trying to make it sound like bitcoin is flexible..

Why isn't their one app on your smartphone that does everything? Why isn't their one program in your computer that does everything? Why are all these apps and programs
modular and separate? Their are good reasons for this, that I don't have time to give you a full lecture on.

have you ever even used nxt?

Yes, but I haven't tested bitshares yet.

you make a good argument about the segmentation of features or apps.. but what you aren't seeing is that soon, these 2.0 platforms will come with a basic client and then the "apps" or "features" will also be segmented with in the one platform but also come in one download.. so you would download say the nxt software, and all the apps would be within that software aswell as a marketplace and everything else, but you would just have the client and another "app section" so if you only want to use the basic send and receive coins function you just dont enable the other apps. if you want the other apps.. you click over to the app section and enable the apps you want to use within the client with out having to do any other downloads.

 so the nxt sorftware(its not nxt im talking about, just using it as an example) would be more akin to the android OS instead of one of the apps on the app store. supernet is perfect example. with supernet, you will have the option in all participating coins clients, to enable supernet features and have instant access to them, how ever if you do not want to see those features you just dont enable them. i wont mention the coin that im nearly 100% sure is going to implement this method but thats where this is going.. so yes your are totally correct that the segmentation of apps is the best method but the way it will be implimented is totally different to the way the apps are built around bitcoin. bitcoin was not designed for all these apps to be bolted on. there was even a risk for a while the bitcoin devs were going to disable some kind of transaction that allowed mastercoin to function because it was too heavy on memory in transactions or something? that happened and i think is still an issue because bitcoin isnt designed for that.

you are correct that bitcoin, or a piece of software that uses bitcoin in some way, can do everything or nearly everything nxt can do but it doesnt do it even nearly as elegantly and if anything is a burden on the bitcoin blockchain. it is the method by which these apps are created and integrated into the system that is going to win the crypto war. nxt is more elegant in its creation and integration of features than bitcoin for obvious reason but it is still not perfect. the plethora of features that are possible cant possibly be all in one client and enabled by default. it will in time, if not already be overwhelming to the user to have so many apps thrown in their face at one time with out a way of hiding apps or selecting which they would like to enable.

there is going to be another 2.0, or 3.0 that does this in a far more elegant manner than both nxt and btc, having all the apps in one download but also segmented for user friendliness. an app store, or marketplace that covers everything from apps to digital goods and the asset exchange within the client if you like, where users can enable or disable what ever apps they wish perhaps with the top 3-5 apps being default enabled. would you agree that that is the perfect solution to the "apps" issue?

introducing bugs with new features is not by any means an issue as long as the features are properly tested before integration. what apps are you talking about that have had less testing than bitcoin apps? i know every feature in nxt went through months of hard testing until all bugs were solved, normally they were gui bugs. i dont follow enough other coins to know how much testing other platforms went through.

and you didnt answer my question...

 "So again, what specifically can bitcoin accomplish that NXT cannot other than send and receive coins with out the use of a 3rd party or alternate blockchain right now?"