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Author Topic: Is it possible to destroy Monero (XMR)?  (Read 10397 times)
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smooth
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September 09, 2014, 07:58:59 PM
 #101

I am challenging everyone to find a reason what is behind this attack and hate.

...

Unfortunately it seems that the recent one could only have been pulled out by a person with much better understanding of the Monero code than Monero devs themselves.

Pretty fucking obvious to me.

Monero had gained a lot of attention but because the mysterious devs didn't manage to financially gain from Monero's rise, they attempted to do a "scorched earth" approach to create a bunch of useless coins to dilute the CryptoNote "brand", trying to eliminate the network effect of Monero. But that didn't exactly go as planned either. They thought that if they couldn't have fame and fortune then no other CN coins should too.

Obvious doesn't mean correct, but it often is.

However, I also don't think the motivations are that important. If Monero continues to succeed, it will eventually become a target for more attacks that are financially motivated (this last one could even conceivably have been carried out by a financially motivated independent actor, but I doubt it), and also attacks by non-financially-motivated enemies with far greater resources. By attacking us now they are doing us a favor, since the early hardening makes for a much stronger technology later, when it really matters.

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September 09, 2014, 09:57:15 PM
 #102

Quote
Will not comment the first group too much as i do now have experience in that, but whole CN concept (egalitarian mining and whatnot) is intended to serve second group. It is not surprising that original CN folks does not like the first group, and it should not be surprising that a lot of average Joes will have more sympathy for the second group. That is naturally because CN folks didn't invent second group, they just recognized it.

That why they premine 80+ % and cripple the PoW, because they believe in egalitarian mining?


Quote
Another, and more dubious, point is the privacy oriented monetary platform does not mix with first group as well as with second group. Will not explain this, just think about it for a moment. One could stretch this so much to claim that first group and privacy for ppl is a oxymoron, but that is just a stretch.

That is again absolute non sense, every big company wants to move money around anonymously and so do investors.


Quote
And now something completely different, i personally liked XMR to the point when shilling and FUDing e.g. BBR surpassed my limit of a good taste. It may be the point when some e.g. DRK supporters switched to XMR, wouldn't know. And i do not claim that my good taste limit should be general, but my feeling is that XMR is going in to direction which looks like the reason why ppl were drown to cryprocurencies actually.

I am not sure what you talk about here, it´s pretty obvious that the other side is in no way better. XMR is by far the the CN coins which gets attacked the most without a concrete reason.

I was referring to privacy for ppl. You are right, there are two groups needing privacy for different reasons. Tnx.

Rest i will not comment, except that you could see that there is scamy and non-scamy part of CN folks if you would pull your head out of the sand.

And that is shilling i'm talking about  Roll Eyes
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September 09, 2014, 11:50:18 PM
 #103

Show me a coin where the dev holds less than 1% of the coins in circulation.

If someone's gonna own 1%+, who'd be better to have it than the dev(s)?

With the high regard that I have to some devs of some coins, in economic matters I trust much more those who have actual success to show in being shrewd with money - entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs, self-made men, the ones that have not succeeded by bootlicking governments, but who rather have a track record that governments have continued to attack them, closing their businesses, confiscating their assets, accused them in court on charges based on their own anti-competition laws, yet they have not lost heart, and still have an unwavering spirit to accompish what yet needs to be accomplished. The type Ayn Rand wrote about. The little that we must yield to central management of any kind, I would like to hand over to these men. If there are concentrations of private wealth in this world, I would sleep most happily if it is in the hands of these men.

You made money - amount not disclosed - from buying bitcoin in 2011. You are referred to in your country as the man that made money by buying bitcoin in 2011. So you got lucky, and you might want to play entrepreneur, but you're just a guy that bought bitcoin in 2011.

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September 10, 2014, 12:15:16 AM
 #104

Same can be said about the ones who bought Apple shares or bought gold in 2001 when it was 260 usd/oz while it gone up to 1767usd/oz in june 2012.
Investing is about investing into something at the right time.

I also had Bitcoin in 2011 and sold most for cheap, way too cheap. Risto was way more clever, he profited from people like me.
There were a shitton of people with Bitcoin in 2011 but most of them were like me, so its not only about knowing about something, its about making the right decisions.
Even if you guys did know about BTC in 2011 i bet you didn´t hold them through all the bubbles, like most people.

Go away with your straw man arguments...

How is that a strawman? It's innuendo or inference at best, based on there being no demonstration of anything else in the closet, but plenty of talk and rhetoric regardless of that.

Taking things out of context like you just did, actually puts the strawman tag on you.

Utterly pathetic post, especially as you showed no reason to believe that a one-off success is reason to attach being "clever" to it.

You're a walking Fallacy, so I suggest you keep quiet.

I've noticed that many of the hardcore Monero "fans" have difficulty distinguishing between throwing out possibile scenarios to actually asserting such possibilities are not actually possibilities, but truth.

Unbelievable ignorance.

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smooth
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September 10, 2014, 12:27:11 AM
 #105

I've noticed that many of the hardcore Monero "fans" have difficulty distinguishing between throwing out possibile scenarios to actually asserting such possibilities are not actually possibilities, but truth.

That to me says that these so called Monero "fans" are open minded and thoughtful, not zealots.

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September 10, 2014, 12:28:59 AM
 #106

Same can be said about the ones who bought Apple shares or bought gold in 2001 when it was 260 usd/oz while it gone up to 1767usd/oz in june 2012.
Investing is about investing into something at the right time.

I also had Bitcoin in 2011 and sold most for cheap, way too cheap. Risto was way more clever, he profited from people like me.
There were a shitton of people with Bitcoin in 2011 but most of them were like me, so its not only about knowing about something, its about making the right decisions.
Even if you guys did know about BTC in 2011 i bet you didn´t hold them through all the bubbles, like most people.

Go away with your straw man arguments...

How is that a strawman? It's innuendo or inference at best, based on there being no demonstration of anything else in the closet, but plenty of talk and rhetoric regardless of that.

Taking things out of context like you just did, actually puts the strawman tag on you.

Utterly pathetic post, especially as you showed no reason to believe that a one-off success is reason to attach being "clever" to it.

You're a walking Fallacy, so I suggest you keep quiet.

I've noticed that many of the hardcore Monero "fans" have difficulty distinguishing between throwing out possibile scenarios to actually asserting such possibilities are not actually possibilities, but truth.

Unbelievable ignorance.

Just look at your post history, what do you have against Monero and the people behind it? It looks psychotic, go home rikkejohn, go have fun with your BITMIXER.

Personal attack, no substance, very much expected.

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rikkejohn
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September 10, 2014, 12:30:49 AM
 #107

I've noticed that many of the hardcore Monero "fans" have difficulty distinguishing between throwing out possibile scenarios to actually asserting such possibilities are not actually possibilities, but truth.

That to me says that these so called Monero "fans" are open minded and thoughtful, not zealots.



Really? I think you need a lesson or two in logic.

We start with swans, then it gets interesting, and hard.

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smooth
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September 10, 2014, 12:32:35 AM
Last edit: September 10, 2014, 01:49:44 AM by smooth
 #108

I've noticed that many of the hardcore Monero "fans" have difficulty distinguishing between throwing out possibile scenarios to actually asserting such possibilities are not actually possibilities, but truth.

That to me says that these so called Monero "fans" are open minded and thoughtful, not zealots.



Really? I think you need a lesson or two in logic.

We start with swans, then it gets interesting, and hard.

Anyone who speaks of unqualified "truth" outside of mathematical abstractions is a zealot in my opinion, but maybe I misunderstood what you said.

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September 10, 2014, 05:36:47 AM
 #109

Of course it's possible.  I don't know how and if I did I would never be that malicious.  But I'm sure there are those that could succeed at destroying it.

A better question is how did this thread grow to 7 pages when the answer to your question can be answered with one word.  YES

btc-mike
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September 10, 2014, 06:11:56 AM
 #110

Of course it's possible.  I don't know how and if I did I would never be that malicious.  But I'm sure there are those that could succeed at destroying it.

A better question is how did this thread grow to 7 pages when the answer to your question can be answered with one word.  YES



Done in 127
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September 10, 2014, 06:52:35 AM
 #111

I am not sure what you talk about here, it´s pretty obvious that the other side is in no way better. XMR is by far the the CN coins which gets attacked the most without a concrete reason.

this one is easy, Monero is the best and the most promising contender of the CN tech.

Even though it's not sure whether Monero is getting any heat from the other CN coins.
Maybe one of the reasons is that whole story with the ByteCoin devs, which are allegedly
also behind some other CN coins?

Is that flame war with Darkcoin still ongoing? I haven't been active for a while, but beginning
of summer I had the impression that there was much attacking going on between the two
communities (both directions).

Slightly OT: what happened to Darkcoin since? Seems to be quite silent...
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September 10, 2014, 06:57:38 AM
 #112

Sorry guys, Monero killer-
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=681725.msg8754756#msg8754756

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September 10, 2014, 07:13:03 AM
 #113


Chandran signatures?  Seems good...
Premined?  Fail.
Proof of Stake?  Massive fail.

Wake me up when there is a fork that is 100% proof of work and 0% premined.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
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Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
Bobsurplus
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September 10, 2014, 07:20:51 AM
 #114


Chandran signatures?  Seems good...
Premined?  Fail.
Proof of Stake?  Massive fail.

Wake me up when there is a fork that is 100% proof of work and 0% premined.

200K premine on 20M coins is nothing. The ledger is out in the open and those funds are only being used for the coins promotion.

I have no worries with a small premine, better then devs taking off with a 300 btc ipo?!?

Also, POW... that's so 2012. We're starting to think out of the box, no need to use all that electricity to mine coins anymore.

Anyway, I'm not here to sell anyone on xst, just pointing out that monero has many flaws and XST seems to have the solutions.

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September 10, 2014, 07:24:49 AM
Last edit: September 10, 2014, 07:56:15 AM by smooth
 #115

Sorry guys, Monero killer-
[spam link removed]

Sorry, nonsense.

Typical mix factors on ring sigs used in Monero are 3-5. Which means this technique reduces size of the ring signature portion of a transaction (not the rest of it) by something between a factor of 1.7 to 2.2.

What this will do is make it feasible for larger ring signatures to be used (say 10-25) in the same amount of space, improving untraceability. Monero will very likely implement this at some point (we've already had our cryptographers looking at it), which means it makes Monero better.

So the improvement is certainly nice, but its not a live or die difference at all.

And no it doesn't at all address the long term issues with blockchain size. If anything BBR's solution to that is better, and I say that a member of the XMR team, not the BBR team.
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September 10, 2014, 08:49:36 AM
 #116

One last attempt to explain how I see that the rich buys club is incongruent with the future.

I could summarize all my posts in this thread with the following outcome in the movie Braveheart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdlL65LD6I4

You really should watch that and see the unexpected SWAN impale the rich boys British at the end.


Sorry that is just a constant size reduction and it doesn't solve the fundamental problem that ring-signatures can't be pruned, except by some other restrictions such as an expiry on coins.

We start with swans, then it gets interesting, and hard.

There IS an obliterating black swan (i.e. Taleb's unexpected long-tail statistic event) they don't see, whilst they be doing busy-bee grunt work of fixing databases for a broken design, making a gui, etc..

I am also a business angel, funding people's things ever since 2004.

And this produced how many million user products?

I have produced (one as a co-developer) three separate "million user" level products since 1980s. With a lot of goofing off vacation time in between (mea culpa).

I am fine if you don't want to come to my castle but that is the necessary condition if you want to deal with me.

I suppose this was directed to me as well as any others who aspire.

This is analogous to the inefficiency of saying that anyone who wants to buy french fries needs to travel to Belgium.

Those who are truly capable don't need any money. There will be too much money trying to be rammed down their throat.

Money is the weak thing to hold. Knowledge is strength.

My suggestion to you was to be more friendly and spread an insignificant (for you) investments around on all promising endeavors in order to be respected for your 1% instead of resented by the community. Also to give yourself more chance on not missing the swan boat when it comes. Your "Rpietila's Altcoin" thread instead of being a jovial and spirited discussion of exciting developments, should be renamed "Rpietila's Monero Membership Club". I am not upset about it, I am just relaying to you how it appears to others who are not brainwashed by "Monero is the answer".

You've already been friendly to me and you even gifted me 2 BTC. There is no problem between you and I. I am writing to gift you feedback, because in my analysis you are in the process of committing a fail and possibly a mega-fail.

Expecting busy hackers to go through personal interviews with you is I am sorry to tell from the perspective of a hacker insulting. I am not insulted, but I am telling you what sort of actions and attitude breed animosity. We build our reputations by our code, not our talking.

"Talk is cheap, show me the code"— Linus Torvalds

"Those who can't build, talk"— Eric Raymond

Your stance is fundamentally incongruent with the open source movement. Open source projects will spawn more and more granularly (smaller teams) and stored capital and top-down organization will become more and more irrelevant.

This is a virtual new economy; we only need to click a button to make an investment. We don't need to travel across the world. And we don't need to invest everything in one thing or two things, thus we don't need to know all the answers before the questions can even be asked. Creativity spawns serendipitously not as planned (even my own work lately proves this is true, because I didn't plan all the ideas I discovered along the way).

Open source is the odds of large numbers.

"Given enough eye balls, all bugs are shallow"— Eric Raymond paraphrasing Linus Torvalds

"Given enough experiments, all possibilities are achievable"— Shelby Moore III paraphrasing Eric Raymond paraphrasing Linus Torvalds

Eric Raymond noted that is the only known positive-scaling law in software engineering, i.e. that efficiency improves the more autonomous N actors involved. Design by top-down grouping or committee is not the same scaling law.

We don't have time to waste on top-down bureaucracy.

Warren Buffett doesn't do angel investing, because he wants to evaluate companies based on well established metrics. Angel investing is a game of more risky probabilities. Thus efficiency of scattershot is more important. Angel investing will become less and less like an exhaustive evaluation and more and more spontaneous and small, e.g. KickStarter. Everyone gives a little bit, not one big whale slowing everything down.

The Knowledge Age is the end of the road for large stored capital. The power-law distribution of wealth will shift to stored knowledge. Actionable knowledge will be power-law distributed. It already is. Which is why when you are searching for a needle in a haystack, don't tell the needle to jump to your castle.

P.S. I do want to have friendships and vacation in nice resorts such as castles. But that is vacation time. I can't mix business with vacation, it doesn't work. When I am coding, I need to be where ever I already am where I can code now, not tomorrow, not after a conversation, not after a glass of wine, not after ... Procrastination is the bane of software development. My best work has come when I didn't have material comforts.

I have not taken a shower in 2 months. I haven't washed my clothes, they are stink like a pig pen. I have not been outside of my room nor seen the sunshine except to restock on food.

Time is of the essence.


It doesn't matter if Paypal accepts Bitcoin because users who are not investors (e.g. especially females and the billions of impoverished) have no incentive to convert from their unit-of-account (dollars) to BTC just to pay for something. They might as well just fund their Paypal transactions with their credit card or bank account. Bitcoin will not become the unit-of-account without the blessing of the government, because it has no distribution scale.

Most of the impoverished don't have a credit card nor bank account.

The Paypal plan.

The reason Paypal couldn't just issue everyone in the developing world an account is because of jealousy thus legal and political risk. Governments would resist take over of their financial control by an overtly fascist corporation.

Peter Thiel et al are more clever.

Issue everyone a supranational digital account that is "decentralized and controlled by no one", when in fact it is centralized and controlled by the fascist powers-that-be.

Use this to force other countries into submission when they attempt to offer their own top-down centralized digital currencies, e.g. Ecuador.

The people are trapped either way in a fully traceable block chain and NWO Technocracy.

Monero (portmanteau of money+dying euro?) offers no hope of scaling to avert this rapidly developing fascist outcome.

C'est la vie. Fait accompli.

And the competing and equally devastating Apple Plan.
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September 10, 2014, 09:04:31 AM
 #117

I am challenging everyone to find a reason what is behind this attack and hate.
I think for the most part it is not rational, or it is out of fear (of something). I don't own any XMR and I don't think it is a scam I have chatted with you (on poloniex as "addi") and fluffypony here, and have found you guys helpful.
I think one just has to rise above it and with attackers the best, and accept that this is a wild and chaotic place at times. All coins get attacked and it's probably good because to survive, and be taken on by the masses the coin will probably have to a good community and honest unflappable people involved.

If we wish people the best we don't even have to understand why.
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September 10, 2014, 09:45:07 AM
Last edit: September 10, 2014, 11:29:46 AM by Marlo Stanfield
 #118


AnonyMint:

They are claiming ring signature anonymity with Visa level scalability. A.k.a your holy grail. Is what they say true?
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September 10, 2014, 09:49:06 AM
 #119

They have no idea what they talk about and didn´t even understand the implications of that Whitepaper.

I guess they need some new ammo for their pump: https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-XST

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September 10, 2014, 11:52:15 AM
 #120

They have no idea what they talk about and didn´t even understand the implications of that Whitepaper.

I guess they need some new ammo for their pump: https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-XST

Yes, the whole thing sounds like typical pump and dump rumors. The whole thing sounds way too good to be true: ring signature level anonymity on a Satoshi based client with transactions one fourth of the size of standard CN transactions? Definitely sounds like bullshit. But I'd also love to see someone like AnonyMint(neutral unbiased evaluation - nothing personal to XMR people) have a look.
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