[CampBX.com] Need Help to Get My $2364 back from CampBX.com

[Bigpiggy01]

Thanks for you long reply.

The money between Mtgox and me is clear month ago. There is no doubt about this. So it's my money Campbx is holding for eight month.

I never used a fake id or identities. I have 3 account on Campbx.com and they didn't acquire id information when I registered them, so I don't think there is any thing wrong about it.

The reason Campbx hold my money is that they think my ID is faked and which is not, so is there any way I can prove my ID is not faked? Can Chinese foreign ministry do this?

First of all if you created 3 accounts and didn't use your actual name on them then yes you did create fake identities. Furthermore you're saying that you violated their terms of service which you're supposed to read and accept prior to using their exchange. Well in that case you have absolutely 0 rights to anything. And quite frankly I don't understand how you could end up thinking you weren't doing anything wrong.

If you're going to try again then the only way to get indisputable documents accepted anywhere from China is A get the document translated and notarized with an appostille and then B get it legalized by the foreign ministry, this is usually done via you local city level government and they have to send a representative physically to Beijing so it's neither cheap nor easily doable.

[Xiong Zhuang]

Thanks for you long reply.

The money between Mtgox and me is clear month ago. There is no doubt about this. So it's my money Campbx is holding for eight month.

I never used a fake id or identities. I have 3 account on Campbx.com and they didn't acquire id information when I registered them, so I don't think there is any thing wrong about it.

The reason Campbx hold my money is that they think my ID is faked and which is not, so is there any way I can prove my ID is not faked? Can Chinese foreign ministry do this?

First of all if you created 3 accounts and didn't use your actual name on them then yes you did create fake identities. Furthermore you're saying that you violated their terms of service which you're supposed to read and accept prior to using their exchange. Well in that case you have absolutely 0 rights to anything. And quite frankly I don't understand how you could end up thinking you weren't doing anything wrong.

If you're going to try again then the only way to get indisputable documents accepted anywhere from China is A get the document translated and notarized with an appostille and then B get it legalized by the foreign ministry, this is usually done via you local city level government and they have to send a representative physically to Beijing so it's neither cheap nor easily doable.

OK I understand, I did use the wrongful way to transfer my money to CampBX.com, is that make my money not belong to me anymore?

Thank you for your help of get my document legalized, but it is not practically at all.

[Xiong Zhuang]

Xiong,
      We use a professional service to perform KYC / Compliance check and customer ID verification.  This service provider is used by many banks and large corporations as well, and they have deemed the documents you submitted as forgeries.  I have seen the analysis, but not going to share details here because it can be misused as a tutorial on how to make better fake IDs.

If you are not going to tell me how my document is confirmed faked, at least you could tell me which specific document of I submitted is faked?

What would you do about my money if you are not going to return my money to me?

Everyone else reading this thread, here is some context that may be helpful:
1) MtGox had a bug last year in their multi-currency code, and Bitcoins showed up as $1 million per coin for a brief period of time.  XZ exploited this bug and managed to sell 0.008 Bitcoin for $11,000.
The drama is on this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33197.0;all
2) The proceeds of the sale were withdrawn to XZ's Dwolla, even though Dwolla's TOS does not permit non-USA accounts.
3) XZ created multiple accounts on CampBX and funneled money in to those accounts.  This is against our TOS.

I admit I didn't read your TOS and used the wrong way to transfer my money to your Dwolla account, but you know it well that this money belongs to me not Mtgox. The $1990 of my $2364 came from Mtgox (already clear) and the rest came from bitcoin7.com. You brought this up is just "helpful" for you to make me look bad. But none of this can change the fack the money belongs to me.

When the situation came to light, Mark Karpeles brought the hammer down hard and XZ's withdrawals from MtGox were recalled.  MtGox reported the issue to Dwolla, and Dwolla shutdown XZ's account.  Both companies stopped replying to XZ's messages completely.  CampBX also shutdown XZ's accounts, but we understand that perhaps he got a little too excited about the Million-dollar Bitcoins and made a bad judgement call.  So we gave him benefit of the doubt and helped him track and recover the money.

Mtgox (their support group but not Mark Karpeles) and Dwolla never “stopped replying to XZ's messages completely”. I asked Mtgox if they sent a request to Dwolla to reverse the transaction and they told me Dwolla already denied their request and made the request ineffective. Then I asked Dwolla about is the money I sent to your account belongs to you legally, they gave me a positive answer. I forward these mail to you long times ago and you confirmed this. Are you denying all this now?

Now when we requested verification documents from XZ to transmit this money to China, he submitted ID documents bearing a completely different name.  The bank account details were also for a different person.  His communications came from multiple aliases including XZ, CM, and Pierre.  Surprised by these irregularities, we ran a check on his documents from our KYC provider and it came back as a fail.

Submitting a fake ID has pushed us on to AML minefield, and we cannot help him anymore with this issue.


Thank you,
      Keyur

PS: Edited for clarity.

I gave you my ID, passport, bank account is all the same name, where is "the other person" you are talking about? Do you really think I can use a fake id to get a bank account in China?

[Xiong Zhuang]

Submitting a fake ID has pushed us on to AML minefield, and we cannot help him anymore with this issue.
Yep, they can. Going to the nearest 'gong an shuo'/police station to ask someone to verify your ID is possible too IMO. You just need an authority to verify that your ID's are real and not faked.

However, having three accounts on CampBX isn't legal according to their TOS. And using three different identities does violate the AML laws. That should be one of the main reasons why CampBX withheld your money.

Thank you for your help.

As CampBX.com cut me some snack on the early mistakes I made I think the primary problem now is about the document I submitted.

I will check the police station to see of they could gave me a certificate for my ID and then get the certificate translated and notarized.

[miernik]

1) MtGox had a bug last year in their multi-currency code, and Bitcoins showed up as $1 million per coin for a brief period of time.  XZ exploited this bug and managed to sell 0.008 Bitcoin for $11,000.
The drama is on this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33197.0;all
2) The proceeds of the sale were withdrawn to XZ's Dwolla, even though Dwolla's TOS does not permit non-USA accounts.
3) XZ created multiple accounts on CampBX and funneled money in to those accounts.  This is against our TOS.

When the situation came to light, Mark Karpeles brought the hammer down hard and XZ's withdrawals from MtGox were recalled.  MtGox reported the issue to Dwolla, and Dwolla shutdown XZ's account.  Both companies stopped replying to XZ's messages completely.

Keyur @ Camp BX, are you telling us the truth here?

In this post from 2011-08-01 18:14:25:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33197.0;all#msg418381
Mark Karpeles writes that:

"We won't lock the account, as nothing was lost."

"Anyway in this case Xiong Zhuang told us exactly how to get the funds back (cancelling the LR withdraw, thru crediting $2000 to his account, solving the negative balance and setting everything right). There is nothing else for us to do here."

This shows that Xiong Zhuang balances with MtGox where clear and approved by MtGox's owner after the mess with the bug.

Keyur @ Camp BX, would you care to comment?

Are you trying to make it appear that the fund were stolen from MtGox, where in fact they where not?

That is all completely separate from the question of Xiong Zhuang identity document being real or not. No matter what great KYC teams you have, you can not completely prove that a document is fake - the only entity who can definitively judge that a passport is forged is the government that issued it. The only thing your KYC team can is suspect that a document is forged and not accept it (same as if the person didn't submit any document). And you can't refuse to return funds based on pure suspicion. If the person can not sufficiently prove his identity to your satisfaction, the only thing you can do is to refuse doing business with the individual, which means to return the funds to the account they came from (refuse to exchange).

Remember: anyone is innocent until proven guilty. At least in the civilized world.

[Bigpiggy01]

I will check the police station to see of they could gave me a certificate for my ID and then get the certificate translated and notarized.

The procedure is like this:

A) Take you passport and have it notarized, you don't need anything from the police station as it won't help and they are legally capable of issuing such a document under Chinese law.
B) Go to the local government and have the document sent for legalization (认证） at the foreign ministry in Beijing.
C) EXPRESS ship documents to CampBx as legalization expires after a set period.

The above procedure works for papers for processing visas, international marriages being registered in multiple countries, having contracts notarized in multiple countries etc and should be beyond any kind of questioning from anybody.

[Keyur @ Camp BX]

Miernik,
        I think we are both saying the same thing: MtGox did not lock the account - Dwolla did.

When the situation came to light, Mark Karpeles brought the hammer down hard and XZ's withdrawals from MtGox were recalled.  MtGox reported the issue to Dwolla, and Dwolla shutdown XZ's account.

My point is that MtGox support guys may not be aware of what Mark said on the forum, because they stopped replying to XZ.  It took months of collective effort including PM to Mark to obtain a written clarification about the ownership of money from both MtGox and Dwolla.


Xiong,
      Our lawyer is exploring options of what to do with the money.  Most likely we will end up turning it over to a GA state or Fulton county agency and you can follow the due to process to claim it from them.  I will send you an email when we complete this hand-off.

Thank you,
      Keyur

[Keyur @ Camp BX]

I will check the police station to see of they could gave me a certificate for my ID and then get the certificate translated and notarized.

The procedure is like this:

A) Take you passport and have it notarized, you don't need anything from the police station as it won't help and they are legally capable of issuing such a document under Chinese law.
B) Go to the local government and have the document sent for legalization (认证） at the foreign ministry in Beijing.
C) EXPRESS ship documents to CampBx as legalization expires after a set period.

The above procedure works for papers for processing visas, international marriages being registered in multiple countries, having contracts notarized in multiple countries etc and should be beyond any kind of questioning from anybody.

+1

[Xiong Zhuang]

Miernik,
        I think we are both saying the same thing: MtGox did not lock the account - Dwolla did.

When the situation came to light, Mark Karpeles brought the hammer down hard and XZ's withdrawals from MtGox were recalled.  MtGox reported the issue to Dwolla, and Dwolla shutdown XZ's account.

My point is that MtGox support guys may not be aware of what Mark said on the forum, because they stopped replying to XZ.  It took months of collective effort including PM to Mark to obtain a written clarification about the ownership of money from both MtGox and Dwolla.


Xiong,
      Our lawyer is exploring options of what to do with the money.  Most likely we will end up turning it over to a GA state or Fulton county agency and you can follow the due to process to claim it from them.  I will send you an email when we complete this hand-off.

Thank you,
      Keyur

MtGox support guys never stopped replying to me at any moment, I just didn't try to contact with them but only try to contact with Mark in the first several month. I am waiting for you email. 

[Bigpiggy01]

Hi Xiong Zhuang,

Let me make this really clear, unless you follow the procedure I outlined four posts back you're not going to receive these funds as you have no other way of legally proving that you are who you say you are. And Campbx atm is in no way obliged to communicate with you so why waste time and space on the forum on this?

[miernik]

Hi Xiong Zhuang,

Let me make this really clear, unless you follow the procedure I outlined four posts back you're not going to receive these funds as you have no other way of legally proving that you are who you say you are. And Campbx atm is in no way obliged to communicate with you so why waste time and space on the forum on this?

CampBX is not obliged to communicate with the person who's money it is holding? Are you being serious? This sounds like a bad joke.

They are holding on his money, and you are saying they're not obliged to communicate with him?

If that is your view on obligations to people you owe money, I'm letting you know that I won't trust you, nor any exchange you might run, with any money - until you publicly reverse your bizarre statement.

So far CampBX in no way proved that Xiong Zhuang is using a fake passport nor that he has done any fraud with the funds.

So far its just they AML team thinks it is fake, which is basically saying that they don't know, because only the document issuer can make a proof (they, and only they have records).

In any case, in an inconclusive case - funds should be returned to where they came from if CampBX doesn't want to bear responsibility of processing them.

In what way where these funds deposited to CampBX?

[Xiong Zhuang]

Hi Xiong Zhuang,

Let me make this really clear, unless you follow the procedure I outlined four posts back you're not going to receive these funds as you have no other way of legally proving that you are who you say you are. And Campbx atm is in no way obliged to communicate with you so why waste time and space on the forum on this?

CampBX is not obliged to communicate with the person who's money it is holding? Are you being serious? This sounds like a bad joke.

They are holding on his money, and you are saying they're not obliged to communicate with him?

If that is your view on obligations to people you owe money, I'm letting you know that I won't trust you, nor any exchange you might run, with any money - until you publicly reverse your bizarre statement.

So far CampBX in no way proved that Xiong Zhuang is using a fake passport nor that he has done any fraud with the funds.

So far its just they AML team thinks it is fake, which is basically saying that they don't know, because only the document issuer can make a proof (they, and only they have records).

In any case, in an inconclusive case - funds should be returned to where they came from if CampBX doesn't want to bear responsibility of processing them.

In what way where these funds deposited to CampBX?

Well, this would be a problem. I withdrawn the money from my account on Mtgox and bitcoin7 to the Dwolla account which I registered with the identity information I made up. After I transfer the money to Campbx.com's Dwolla account, my Dwolla account is suspended, and the money stays in Campbx's Dwolla account. I checked with the Dwolla support about the legality of the money in Campbx.com's account, they gave me a positive answer.

[miernik]

Well, this would be a problem. I withdrawn the money from my account on Mtgox and bitcoin7 to the Dwolla account which I registered with the identity information I made up.

On your Dwolla account - was only your US address made up, and your name was real?

Or also your name was fake?

Anyway: CampBX should give the money back to Dwolla, and they should decide what to do with it. It came from Dwolla and it should come back there. If you no longer have a Dwolla account, CampBX should send the money back to Dwolla's general account, or by wire/check.

If they decided its clear, then Dwolla can send you a check.

[Xiong Zhuang]

Well, this would be a problem. I withdrawn the money from my account on Mtgox and bitcoin7 to the Dwolla account which I registered with the identity information I made up.

On your Dwolla account - was only your US address made up, and your name was real?

Or also your name was fake?

The US address is made up, and the name I used is "Pierre Hossler". The name is not my real name on my passport, but "Pierre" is my English name.

[miernik]

     Our lawyer is exploring options of what to do with the money.  Most likely we will end up turning it over to a GA state or Fulton county agency and you can follow the due to process to claim it from them.  I will send you an email when we complete this hand-off.

Thank you,
      Keyur

Keyur: I think you should give the money back to Dwolla - you got it from there. And they should deal with it. You don't want to deal with the user - put the money back to the entity you got it from - Dwolla. The user has no longer a Dwolla account - no problem, send it to Dwolla as a company - by check or wire. And let them deal with it. Surely you don't want the responsibility of dealing with possibly tainted funds - so send it back where you got them from - simple! Its as if you would get a random transfer from Dwolla that you shouldn't have got - send it back. Dwolla has surely US bank accounts and/or you can send them a check. You will be clear, it will be Dwolla's problem.

[miernik]

The US address is made up, and the name I used is "Pierre Hossler". The name is not my real name on my passport, but "Pierre" is my English name.

Then here is how the issue should be dealt with: CampBX should send the money back to Dwolla - they got it from there.

As your Dwolla account was cancelled, Dwolla should just send you a check payable to "Pierre Hossler". How you cash the check is your problem. After all you told Dwolla you're "Pierre Hossler", so Dwolla pays pack "Pierre Hossler" with a check.

This way both CampBX and Dwolla's name will be clear.

And you'll have a check.

[Xiong Zhuang]

The US address is made up, and the name I used is "Pierre Hossler". The name is not my real name on my passport, but "Pierre" is my English name.

Then here is how the issue should be dealt with: CampBX should send the money back to Dwolla - they got it from there.

As your Dwolla account was cancelled, Dwolla should just send you a check payable to "Pierre Hossler". How you cash the check is your problem. After all you told Dwolla you're "Pierre Hossler", so Dwolla pays pack "Pierre Hossler" with a check.

This way both CampBX and Dwolla's name will be clear.

And you'll have a check.

As Dwolla suspended my account because they knew my identity is invalid, how could they still send me a check with the invalid information?   

[Bigpiggy01]

CampBX is not obliged to communicate with the person who's money it is holding? Are you being serious? This sounds like a bad joke.

They are holding on his money, and you are saying they're not obliged to communicate with him?

If that is your view on obligations to people you owe money, I'm letting you know that I won't trust you, nor any exchange you might run, with any money - until you publicly reverse your bizarre statement.

So far CampBX in no way proved that Xiong Zhuang is using a fake passport nor that he has done any fraud with the funds.

So far its just they AML team thinks it is fake, which is basically saying that they don't know, because only the document issuer can make a proof (they, and only they have records).

In any case, in an inconclusive case - funds should be returned to where they came from if CampBX doesn't want to bear responsibility of processing them.

In what way where these funds deposited to CampBX?

Read the whole thread before jumping to conclusions. And FYI that comment was directed at him not you, you're obviously not used to dealing with non native speakers where clarity counts for an awful lot more than content in terms of the original language.

[Bitcoin Oz]

The US address is made up, and the name I used is "Pierre Hossler". The name is not my real name on my passport, but "Pierre" is my English name.

Then here is how the issue should be dealt with: CampBX should send the money back to Dwolla - they got it from there.

As your Dwolla account was cancelled, Dwolla should just send you a check payable to "Pierre Hossler". How you cash the check is your problem. After all you told Dwolla you're "Pierre Hossler", so Dwolla pays pack "Pierre Hossler" with a check.

This way both CampBX and Dwolla's name will be clear.

And you'll have a check.

As Dwolla suspended my account because they knew my identity is invalid, how could they still send me a check with the invalid information?   

Maybe you should keep the same identity....

[miernik]

Read the whole thread before jumping to conclusions. And FYI that comment was directed at him not you, you're obviously not used to dealing with non native speakers where clarity counts for an awful lot more than content in terms of the original language.

I follow the whole thread from the beginning, I read every single post in it.

About clarity: can you repeat your statement in clear words. Or just mark what you think:

[ ] an exchange which holds money deposited by a user has obligation to communicate with the user and explain in all details how he can obtain the funds back

[ ] an exchange which holds money deposited by a user has no obligation to communicate with him, and can stop responding whenever their staff finds any suspected flaw in the users documentation

Do you run any exchange?

I just want to know which exchanges and which members of this forum I can trust.