Apple pay will make bitcoin (even more) useless. Let's deal with it.

[dankkk]

It's not a question of "payment systems", it's a question of currency integrity.

Applepay is just another way of paying by fiat - an unlimited instamine scam coin that the Fed can't stop mining at ultra low difficulty in order to hose down the US Treasury Bond interest rate so the country doesn't go bust in 10 seconds. It also requires expensive, slow and antiquated counterparties - not only to process the payment but to actually hold the balance in the first place.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a limited supply, rapid transit, counterparty-free electronic commodity that is about a million times more suited to trading on networks than fiat is - whatever gimmicks Apple come up with to try to hide that fact.

you take into account always USA and its financial problems. Well world is not USA. There are many nations where inflation is very low and here in Italy in 2014 inflation was less than 0. we are going through deflation due to crisis. I provided source in my other topic or you can Google it.
So stop talking about USA. Bitcoin is not in USA. Many people live outside USA and are not even aware of what Federal Reserve is. ok?
So if usa has actually big inflation, it is a problem only in USA. You cannot link this to bitcoin adoption.

The US actually has very low inflation, the inflation levels in the US are probably lower then it really should be because of the fact that a small economic shock could send prices into a deflationary spiral.

Also people often look to US economic indicators because it's economy is by far the largest and it's economy influences the economy of the rest of the world.

[toknormal]

world is not USA

Yes it is actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system

[toknormal]

The US actually has very low inflation, the inflation levels in the US are probably lower then it really should be because of the fact that a small economic shock could send prices into a deflationary spiral.

The reason USA isn't getting "Weimar" style inflation from all the quantitative easing is because the Fed has instituted a clever mechanism for "magnetising" the new money back onto their own balance sheets, even though it's held by the commercial banking sector.

They offer a higher rate of interest on "excess reserves" which is the difference between the capital a lending bank holds and that which is required to satisfy the minimum reserve ratio. So lets say, a bank holds $1 billion in capital and has lent out $8 billion (via the fractional reserve multiplier). If the minimum reserve ratio is 10% then they'd have $200 million in excess reserves (since, to meet the minimum reserve requirement they only need to hold $800 million). *

So that $200 million goes back onto the fed balance sheet by way of the commercial banking sector "lending" it back to them at a profitable interest rate. It doesn't find its way out into the economy to start a "Weimar" situation.

I'm not sure of the numbers but there's some staggering amount of the money supply now backed up on the fed balance sheet in this way. I think it might be in the trillions. The problem with this is that it's a time bomb. What happens if interest rates start slowly rising again ? For example if there's a currency war with the Ruble or the Remnimbi and the US Treasury has to defend the dollar - does all that money supply come flying off the fed balance sheet and go straight onto Forex markets to be dumped instead ? That's when your bitcoin is going to come in slightly handy to say the least - as is anything tangible that anyone can get their hands on including metals, property, oil and farmland I imagine.

* Assuming convention or $1 billion = $1000 million which it is in my part of the world

EDIT: As I speak there are articles appearing on this !!...  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-12/fed-has-big-surprise-waiting-you

This one's about the stock market which is being "pumped" due to the knock on effect of QE because that's the other place all the money is going - rock bottom interest rates are chasing it all into stocks. So if (when!) they start to rise there's going to be a bit of a tsunami happening.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-13/art-cashin-things-could-theoretically-turn-what-i-call-lehman-moment

[counter]

I'd say apple pay is a novelty that has to be proven at this time.  Bitcoin is tried and true and guess what people like it, we like it a lot.  When scams start to proliferate more so with Apple Pay who is going to foot the bill?  Still many questions to be answered and that is part of the reason This feature hasn't been implemented sooner.  If anything I'd say it's a knod to Bitcoin that we're on the right track and if anything we should be following the example Apple has set, and make the ease of use of Bitcoin comparable to the Apple Pay or better.

[Jordan23]

As far as I'm aware Apple Pay requires a debit/credit card to use. So OP thinks everyone in the world has access to banks. Bitcoin requires no banks to work. Either you're a troll or have the IQ of an ant.

[wasserman99]

The US actually has very low inflation, the inflation levels in the US are probably lower then it really should be because of the fact that a small economic shock could send prices into a deflationary spiral.

The reason USA isn't getting "Weimar" style inflation from all the quantitative easing is because the Fed has instituted a clever mechanism for "magnetising" the new money back onto their own balance sheets, even though it's held by the commercial banking sector.

They offer a higher rate of interest on "excess reserves" which is the difference between the capital a lending bank holds and that which is required to satisfy the minimum reserve ratio. So lets say, a bank holds $1 billion in capital and has lent out $8 billion (via the fractional reserve multiplier). If the minimum reserve ratio is 10% then they'd have $200 million in excess reserves (since, to meet the minimum reserve requirement they only need to hold $800 million). *

So that $200 million goes back onto the fed balance sheet by way of the commercial banking sector "lending" it back to them at a profitable interest rate. It doesn't find its way out into the economy to start a "Weimar" situation.

I'm not sure of the numbers but there's some staggering amount of the money supply now backed up on the fed balance sheet in this way. I think it might be in the trillions. The problem with this is that it's a time bomb. What happens if interest rates start slowly rising again ? For example if there's a currency war with the Ruble or the Remnimbi and the US Treasury has to defend the dollar - does all that money supply come flying off the fed balance sheet and go straight onto Forex markets to be dumped instead ? That's when your bitcoin is going to come in slightly handy to say the least - as is anything tangible that anyone can get their hands on including metals, property, oil and farmland I imagine.

* Assuming convention or $1 billion = $1000 million which it is in my part of the world

EDIT: As I speak there are articles appearing on this !!...  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-12/fed-has-big-surprise-waiting-you

This one's about the stock market which is being "pumped" due to the knock on effect of QE because that's the other place all the money is going - rock bottom interest rates are chasing it all into stocks. So if (when!) they start to rise there's going to be a bit of a tsunami happening.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-13/art-cashin-things-could-theoretically-turn-what-i-call-lehman-moment

The interest that the Federal reserve pays on excess bank reserves is much less then what banks can make on loans to consumers, even after accounting for likely default rates on loans. The loans are not being made with the money the banks are getting from QE because there is not enough demand for loans from credit worthy borrowers. This has actually been discussed as a problem as with all the excess reserves, the fed will likely have difficulty raising interest rates when it needs to

[gtraah]

Your an Idiot!?  Is that enough of a comment? Oh sorry Let me add one more little thing..

Here is a world 10 yrs from now, where many if not Most merchants businesses accept BTC:

Scenario:

I am Sydney Australia, and my friend is in Berlin. He needs some cash Instantly for a Taxi unfortunately he happened to drink a little too much and spent all his money for the night and forgot he needed a taxi (Taxi's In Germany accept BTC in this world) so he SMS me from across the world and says Bro can I ask you for a favour !! Can I borrow 0.04 for a taxi I am all out ..... I say yes no worries and send over the amount he wanted, Instantly he sees the transfer happen in his BTC wallet and transaction waiting for a confirmation, in exactly 7 minutes the money was in his wallet ready to spend. (Happened to be a fast confirmation today as it usually takes a whole 8-10minutes For the funds to be irreversible and CLEAR.

Can you tell me if I can do this with Apple Pay?

[BTCIndia]

When they can't keep customers nude photograph safe then how are they suppose to keep their money?

Of course Apple pay will become standard of payment, the day Apple becomes bottom line of society.
Third world countries has high probability of accepting Apple pay because of their purchasing power.

[niothor]

Your an Idiot!?  Is that enough of a comment? Oh sorry Let me add one more little thing..

Here is a world 10 yrs from now, where many if not Most merchants businesses accept BTC:

Scenario:

I am Sydney Australia, and my friend is in Berlin. He needs some cash Instantly for a Taxi unfortunately he happened to drink a little too much and spent all his money for the night and forgot he needed a taxi (Taxi's In Germany accept BTC in this world) so he SMS me from across the world and says Bro can I ask you for a favour !! Can I borrow 0.04 for a taxi I am all out ..... I say yes no worries and send over the amount he wanted, Instantly he sees the transfer happen in his BTC wallet and transaction waiting for a confirmation, in exactly 7 minutes the money was in his wallet ready to spend. (Happened to be a fast confirmation today as it usually takes a whole 8-10minutes For the funds to be irreversible and CLEAR.

Can you tell me if I can do this with Apple Pay?

Probably not with ApplePay but you can do it even faster and now with M-Pesa. .

[Searing]

Perhaps this has already been addressed on this thread...but will apple pay allow apps for bitcoin using this method...or is it locked out ie only cc companies

have not seen anything that BTC is locked out but definitely looks like BTC at best is ignored in all this hoopla

anyway if this has been addressed already reply with a link

you'd think someone would make an app for this if they are allowed to

Searing

[Kprawn]

OP = Entry into BTC ---> "Wow this is great, I will be rich within a year" / 1 year into BTC = "WTF why am I still poor?" / 1 year and 2 months = "Fuk..I did everything right, I bought 2 Bitcoins, did nothing, and waited, and It still shows no profit" / 1 year and 3 months = "FUK this.. BTC is full of shit" / 1 year 4 months = "Ah! Apple Pay is going to be BIG!, let me sell those worthless bitcoins ....../ 1 year and 5 months = Oh shit <---- Apple Pay sux! ...what next, I have to be rich soon.!!!!!!

Ok thats why they say... Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one ... Bye bye.. *Slap - This is not a get rich quick scheme...........

[Jamie_Boulder]

Okay, so my knowledge on Apple pay is not extensive. However, it is not comparable to Bitcoin on many levels. First, Bitcoin is a currency. Applepay is not a currency. Your money will still be subjected to the value and weaknesses of USD. Applepay does not have properties that will allow you to send money across the globe without consideration of nation states. (Gold does not have these properties either) Applepay is centralized and closed source. Payments can be undone.

From what I understand Applepay is paypal with NFC. Not anything like Bitcoin.

not true. not true. Main companies apple has made agreements with are all over the world. Mastercard, Visa and such are all over the world. Basically almost every merchant with a PoS can accept it. Yes, apple pay is not a currency and will use local currency. That makes this strong. People are using fiat currency right now, fiat currency, even if there is inflation, quite small really, are strong. Why? because they are accepted as paying sistem in all territory  of the nation by everyone. so purple can trust fiat currency. And they can trust the payments system which is controlled by banks. They cannot make errors, see their money lost or stolen as with bitcoin Exactely for that reason, because there is a society responsible for their money. Bank has a debt with customer. With btc you are always risky. You never feel safe. If you pay something and you don't get the service, money is lost anyway. If a thkef steals your money, it is lost. If you have an address on your pc and your pc breaks, money is lost. If there is a bubble and bitcoin loses value, money is lost. While when happened thay a fiat currency lost 50% of his value in one week? when in history?
I am not saying that banks are good. They make profit, to much profit for my opinion for their real service. But the system is working right now. Hundred Billions dollars or euros move each hour everywhere and everything works. Yes, with some fees and a small inflation set by General reserve or what it is. But it works. With future payments made by nfc everyone will be able to pay with his bank account directly without carrying cash. Why would people use bitcoin? to try a new thing? to feel active brave against evil banks? to feel heroes? seriously.

You can only offend me. You don't understand how stupid is when an adult offends another adult man in the Internet. I find this quite silly and shameful. Anyway if you feel better, offend me. I think every word I have written.

And yes I invested in btc. I believed in the idea at first and wanted to make profit too obviously as you all. I invested in a risky thing aware of it and lost. I could gain profit, big profit, it did not happen. This does not make me stupid. Only stupid people can think that losing money happens only to stupid.

Average lifespan of a fiat currency over the past 500 years is 27 years.

You trust it & think it works because you haven't had the displeasure of seeing it being debased by greedy banks because it's no longer as profitable as it once was (recent example = Greece)

You seem to have taken the wrong approach to Bitcoin to begin with, it's not an INVESTMENT, it's morons like you that have inflated the price to more than it should be and then complain about it not being $100,000 like your friend told you it would be.

My suggestion? sell your BTC, leave this forum, never come back.

[niothor]

And in 3 years when you are going to be able to spend bitcoins with Applepay people reading this forum will wonder why all the fighting here.

[gtraah]

Probably not with ApplePay but you can do it even faster and now with M-Pesa. .

Forgot to mention Bitcoin costs a few Cents per transfer!!

Mpesa? Lol

I just did a Mpesa look up,

This is just the first thing I saw when I typed Mpesa Australia.... Apparently http://www.mhits.com.au/send-money/ Is the place that does it and it ain't that instant because you have to load your Mhits account with money first. 2nd I can only send to 6 different countries, 3rd the person I am sending to needs to have a mhits wallet.

They also take a fee on the exchange rates from currency to currency

Then........

How much does it cost to send the actual money that you had to wait 2 days to reach your Mhits account?

To >>> Philippines: $5 + 1% of the amount* (If I want to send $350 here it will cost me $8.50) Imagine I want to send $10,000+

To >>> All other countries: $5 + 5% of the amount* (If I want to send $350 to Ghana $22.50 ) Imagine I want to send $10,000+

In fact there maybe limits with this, may not be possible to send more than a certain amount.

Comparison----

Bitcoin $350-$10000000000000 to anywhere = 5 cents... But to be fair this is in a world where most people accept BTC meaning you do not need to exchange back to $$ you can use the BTC to buy your food, fill petrol, watch a movie, catch the train Etc..... A world like this will be amazing.

[niothor]

Probably not with ApplePay but you can do it even faster and now with M-Pesa. .

Forgot to mention Bitcoin costs a few Cents per transfer!!

Mpesa? Lol

I just did a Mpesa look up,

1st you need to load your account up with Money.

They also take a cut on the exchange rates from currency to currency

Then........

How much does it cost to send money?

Philippines: $5 + 1% of the amount*

All other countries: $5 + 5% of the amount*

This is just the first thing I saw when I typed Mpesa Australia.... Apparently http://www.mhits.com.au/send-money/ Is the place that does it and it ain't that instant because you have to load your Mhits account with money first. 2nd I can only send to 6 different countries, 3rd the person I am sending to needs to have a mhits wallet.

Plus I found some thing about Kenya Mpesa available in Australia

Same for bitcoin , first you have to load your wallet with bitcoins.

As for transaction fees , if I were right now to go and buy bitcoins (without banks) from local bitcoins and then send to a friend in Spain I would lose 10% on every bitcoin I send , not to mention gas spent on driving to the nearest seller.

For example I can't get any coins below 510 and not more than 460 when selling.

And if I were to buy bitcoins from stamp and then sending them why not use bank transfer directly in the first place.

[gtraah]

Same for bitcoin , first you have to load your wallet with bitcoins.

As for transaction fees , if I were right now to go and buy bitcoins (without banks) from local bitcoins and then send to a friend in Spain I would lose 10% on every bitcoin I send , not to mention gas spent on driving to the nearest seller.

For example I can't get any coins below 510 and not more than 460 when selling.

And if I were to buy bitcoins from stamp and then sending them why not use bank transfer directly in the first place.

Not sure if you read my last part >> As I said --- TO be fair this would be a world where most people used BTC,

In Comparison --- In a world where most ppl used Mpesa you are still charged 1%-5% + $5 per transaction. AND I am only allowed to send it to 6 countires lol

I am talking about the normal way off acquiring BTC, I would never buy of local bitcoins, pure rippoff! .  I am in Australia and I will pay 1% above exchange rate to transfer from AUD to BTC But thats it. If I transfer money at 5pm It will be in BTC by 2am next morning. Soon there will be a debit card feature, where I can instantly buy BTC . There is no extra fee to use Debit Card. As time goes buy its going to be easier and easier to buy BTC and I believe it will become cheaper also. It is the on and off ramp into Fiat that costs money, oneday when many people use BTC and it stabelises you will not need to come in and out of fiat as often....  Transferring btc to btc cost peanuts, Mpesa to mpesa is still more expensive. Not sure why we are even comparing this.

[niothor]

Same for bitcoin , first you have to load your wallet with bitcoins.

As for transaction fees , if I were right now to go and buy bitcoins (without banks) from local bitcoins and then send to a friend in Spain I would lose 10% on every bitcoin I send , not to mention gas spent on driving to the nearest seller.

For example I can't get any coins below 510 and not more than 460 when selling.

And if I were to buy bitcoins from stamp and then sending them why not use bank transfer directly in the first place.

Not sure if you read my last part >> As I said --- TO be fair this would be a world where most people used BTC,

In Comparison --- In a world where most ppl used Mpesa you are still charged 1%-5% + $5 per transaction. AND I am only allowed to send it to 6 countires lol

I am talking about the normal way off acquiring BTC, I would never buy of local bitcoins, pure rippoff! .  I am in Australia and I will pay 1% above exchange rate to transfer from AUD to BTC But thats it. If I transfer money at 5pm It will be in BTC by 2am next morning. Soon there will be a debit card feature, where I can instantly buy BTC . There is no extra fee to use Debit Card. As time goes buy its going to be easier and easier to buy BTC and I believe it will become cheaper also. It is the on and off ramp into Fiat that costs money, oneday when many people use BTC and it stabelises you will not need to come in and out of fiat as often....  Transferring btc to btc cost peanuts, Mpesa to mpesa is still more expensive. Not sure why we are even comparing this..

This makes your argument about 6 nations also invalid.
If you assume bitcoin grows you would have to assume m-pesa also grows.

Fact is that while in 4 years bitcoin managed to get 50m transaction in the blockchain , Mpesa has close to that number in users.

If you use a bank to buy bitcoin , then the whole debate about sending money via bitcoin is flawed.
Because using a bank to acquire bitcoin , then sending bitcoins and making the other person use a bank to change those bitcoins for it's needs it's a mess that can be avoided with direct transfer.
Let's not talk about the fees , the spread in btc price that can make you lose more money than the damn wire transfer.

Bitcoin is not the best in this currently and blinkered zealots are not doing any good.

There are so many obstacles for bitcoin to become a real solution for money transfer and yet in the last two years the improvments are close to 0.
Sorry but that is reality.

[Beliathon]

[niothor]

Let's wait and see the real world application.
Apple will certainly publish some numbers in terms of transactions volume in a few months.

The interesting thing is that the picture uses the term "possible" when it comes to bitcoin...
From possible 7 billions to the 60k daily transaction...that is one hell of  gap that needs to be filled.

[Impros88]

you don't get the point. I am not talking of present day situation. I am talking of near future, when other companies (Samsung, LG, One Plus et cetera) will make same agreements with merchant companies to make their smartphones equally useful for immediate payments (they already are, having nfc, but since they have no agreements with companies and smartphones are considered as payments without card, fees are higher).  Then, smartphones are no more an elite thing for rich people. I bought my galaxy s3 for 130 euro on eBay. And there are much cheaper smartphones out there. You could buy a good used smartphone for less than 50 euro.
So we must imagine that in the next future almost everyone will have a smartphone with nfc and ability to pay on the go. And everywhere. Since what is actually limited to only USA will be widespread all over the world. In one year, 2 years I don't know. But it's rather sure.
So please stop saying that Apple is only for rich people and Apple pay actually is only in USA. This is last time I repeat this. Try to learn to read properly before using bitcoin.