Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune

[jomay]

My current thoughts revolve around the points below all of which don't require I am a consumer! Of course I would still argue that I am a consumer and provide evidence for it (tax returns, full-time employment contract).

However, I believe most points below are not clear cut. There's no guarantee a judge would rule in our favor, as KnC's T&C were written by weasels. Point 1. is excluded by their T&C, Point 2. has changed over time and may not be part of the contract, and point 3. is something a business may have to deal with to some degree.

1. Late Delivery
1.1 shipping may not have begun in Q2/Q3
Their order page said "will be shipping in Q2/Q3" and "shipping begins Q2/Q3". KnC ships now to fulfill this promise. However, the product they ship is unfinished and does not work as promised.According to their T&C "KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months from delivery [...]". I would argue KnC has not shipped the product yet and hence has not fulfilled their contract yet! See 2. for details.

1.2 Q2 was not achievable
KnC implicitly admits it themselves. It's great! KnC stated in their news that the Titan was "progressing as expected and we plan to ship in Q3" and "we see no delays in the production process so far" (June 30, 2014) and that they "see no delays in production so far and expect to start shipping well before the end of Q3" (July 28, 2014). The first time they have admitted to a possible delay was "fab yield is not as good as we hoped for" (September 11, 2014).

2. Below/Different Specification
"KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification [...]". To my understanding it implies that my miner should perform at 300MH/s and 800-1000W no matter when I have ordered. Is this a correct interpretation of "at all times" or do they mean "at the time the contract was concluded"? These specifications have been published in official news updates of KnC. KnC has also stated that of course all customers get the benefit of the performance increase.

2.1 power requirements are 1160W not 800W
2.2 Does not run on an 800-1000W PSU
It should be possible to get compensation for this. After all, we are considered businesses by KnC!
2.3 The Titan struggles to run at 300MH/s
According to customer experience the Titan requires constant reboots and does not achieve 300MH/s. This may be fixed with the  new firmware. It would be best if I had written evidence that the miner did not work as expected in Q2/Q3. Please contact me if you happen to have an early Titan that doesn't work as expected.
2.4 Changed casing from Jupiter form factor to Neptune
Probably not important enough to go for a refund. However, did the Jupiter suffer the fire hazard problem? If not then this may be relevant.


3. Electrical setup is complex
3.1 A Standard ATX PSU may not be sufficient
The PSU PCIe-connector required is a 45750 Mini-Fit® Plus HCS Crimp Terminal Crimped to 16 AWG wire.
I am not an electricial and I am not able to deal with this.

3.2 Not CE certified (etc.)
From their FAQ: "We want to ship as fast as possible. If we included a power supply, the certification process would be a longer and we'd have a lot of variations to design that would take precious time from your mining opportunity". This should have been made clear at the time of the order, not hidden in some FAQ.

3.3. Sold as a Developer Kit (not sure where it said this)
I'm NOT a developer even if I am a business. KnC has a duty to make this clear at the time of the order.



Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.

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[mishax1]

Fact: Batch 1 never stated to be a non-refundable product, nowhere. yet they claim it's non-refundable.

Fact: Their product page says Uses a standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX). Yet their actual/new specs recommendations say 2 x 750w or 2 x 850w power supplies.

[varChar]

Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.

This law is appended if you buy as a person and not as a company. That's why KnC says that you are a company.
Everything you buy trough internet, over the phone or if a door knocker comes give you the law about 'distance buy'. Worth to mention is that this law does not apply if you buy anything that is custom made.

And YOU need to pay for the shipping back to the company you bought the product from. And as you said, this within 2 weeks after you received it!

[jomay]

Fact: Batch 1 never stated to be a non-refundable product, nowhere. yet they claim it's non-refundable.

Fact: Their product page says Uses a standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX). Yet their actual/new specs recommendations say 2 x 750w or 2 x 850w power supplies.

I don't think they need to state "non-refundable". That is implied by selling to business only. So you either argue that you are a consumer not a business, or you show that they have broken the contract to a degree that allows you to cancel as a business.

But that's only my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer.

[jomay]

Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.

This law is appended if you buy as a person and not as a company. That's why KnC says that you are a company.
Everything you buy trough internet, over the phone or if a door knocker comes give you the law about 'distance buy'. Worth to mention is that this law does not apply if you buy anything that is custom made.

And YOU need to pay for the shipping back to the company you bought the product from. And as you said, this within 2 weeks after you received it!

Yes and no. Simply saying that I am a company does not make me a company. It is up to a judge and the law to decide whether I am a company or a consumer in that case.

The problem with all laws is to define when they are applicable. Hence the DSR's that I have cited above (as a crude google-translation) define first what is a consumer and what is a trader. So the question is really whether I am a consumer as defined by the DSR and have acted primarily for purposes outside business activities.

Is the google translation actually accurate?

I don't mind at all paying to ship it back. However, I believe KnC will reply that they do not accept it shipped back - at which point I believe that it is sufficient to keep it in custody until the matter is settled.

[vipgelsi]

Lets just merge these threads.

[varChar]

Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.

This law is appended if you buy as a person and not as a company. That's why KnC says that you are a company.
Everything you buy trough internet, over the phone or if a door knocker comes give you the law about 'distance buy'. Worth to mention is that this law does not apply if you buy anything that is custom made.

And YOU need to pay for the shipping back to the company you bought the product from. And as you said, this within 2 weeks after you received it!

Yes and no. Simply saying that I am a company does not make me a company. It is up to a judge and the law to decide whether I am a company or a consumer in that case.

The problem with all laws is to define when they are applicable. Hence the DSR's that I have cited above (as a crude google-translation) define first what is a consumer and what is a trader. So the question is really whether I am a consumer as defined by the DSR and have acted primarily for purposes outside business activities.

Is the google translation actually accurate?

I don't mind at all paying to ship it back. However, I believe KnC will reply that they do not accept it shipped back - at which point I believe that it is sufficient to keep it in custody until the matter is settled.

I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.

[jomay]

I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.

Hi varChar,
it'd be fantastic if you can do that. To my knowledge KnC has previously said that any order that is rejected by the customer will be left for destruction by the shipping company. Could you ask konsumentverket what I should do?

Reject the shipment and risk destruction?
Accept and immediately send a letter, requesting a refund? If so, how do I deal with KnC not wanting the product back? Also, if the product is sitting at my place waiting for the return I probably cannot use it whilst I wait for the dispute to settle.

Do you happen to know a lawyer in Stockholm that could deal with such a case and doesn't charge more than a Titan costs?

[varChar]

I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.

Hi varChar,
it'd be fantastic if you can do that. To my knowledge KnC has previously said that any order that is rejected by the customer will be left for destruction by the shipping company. Could you ask konsumentverket what I should do?

Reject the shipment and risk destruction?
Accept and immediately send a letter, requesting a refund? If so, how do I deal with KnC not wanting the product back? Also, if the product is sitting at my place waiting for the return I probably cannot use it whilst I wait for the dispute to settle.

Do you happen to know a lawyer in Stockholm that could deal with such a case and doesn't charge more than a Titan costs?

I'll call them tomorrow. Never heard anything about the destruction. Do I understands you correct that they say that they will destory it?

No sorry I dont know anything about any lawers, I'll ask konsumentverket that as well. Perhaps they can help out, or maybe not. But I'll ask.

[jomay]

I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.

Hi varChar,
it'd be fantastic if you can do that. To my knowledge KnC has previously said that any order that is rejected by the customer will be left for destruction by the shipping company. Could you ask konsumentverket what I should do?

Reject the shipment and risk destruction?
Accept and immediately send a letter, requesting a refund? If so, how do I deal with KnC not wanting the product back? Also, if the product is sitting at my place waiting for the return I probably cannot use it whilst I wait for the dispute to settle.

Do you happen to know a lawyer in Stockholm that could deal with such a case and doesn't charge more than a Titan costs?

I'll call them tomorrow. Never heard anything about the destruction. Do I understands you correct that they say that they will destory it?

No sorry I dont know anything about any lawers, I'll ask konsumentverket that as well. Perhaps they can help out, or maybe not. But I'll ask.

I've only heard it once from a person on their forums. He wanted to not accept the delivery and KnC said any undelivered item would be left with the shipping company until you either pick it up or the shipping company destroys it.

It seems quite odd to me, but it does fit with their overall behavior.

Thank you very much for doing this! It's very helpful! I invite you for a few drinks or lunch if you ever come to London.

[retro72]

KNC take note http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/

“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch, and did so yet again to sell their cloud mining services. They should not get a fourth change (or a fifth chance, in the case of one of the defendants).”

It's interesting to note the FTC called BFL customers "consumers" this blows a hole in the you have to be a business to own miners argument. In the US at least. If the same is proven true in Europe KNC will probably be bankrupted by refunds. I'm going to use every waking minute to find out. The game's afoot.

[retro72]

I reported KNC for both of these
Unfair terms here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/Oskaliga-avtalsvillkor/
For failing to inform their customers the products were non refundable before purchase

Dangerous products here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/Farlig-vara/
400 watts a cube+ 1 PCI-e connector = FIRE. I uploaded a few pictures of burnt KNC connectors and cables

Here is the main page in case the links go bad http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/

I'll be reporting KNC to ARN as well http://www.arn.se/ .
I've got A LOT of stuff against KNC to put together so it may take a couple of days, but the more people that do it the more they will take notice.

I would also report them here http://www.econsumer.gov/english/report/overview.shtm
Interestingly this site is run by the FTC in the U.S, but it deals with international complaints. Probably a good place to file one.

Don't forget to report them to the police http://polisen.se/Kontakta-oss/Polismyndigheter/Stockholms-lan/
and file an application for payment with the baliffs https://www.kronofogden.se/Ansokaombetalningsforelaggande.html

 I'll be doing that if my invoice isn't paid by its due day this week.

This is an interesting read about the debt recovery process in Sweden http://www.millerrosenfalck.com/2013/01/debt-collection-in-sweden/

edit: Thanks VarChar, changed the links

[varChar]

I reported KNC for both of these
Unfair terms here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagled...avtalsvillkor/
For failing to inform their customers the products were non refundable before purchase

Dangerous products here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagled...n/Farlig-vara/
400 watts a cube+ 1 PCI-e connector = FIRE. I uploaded a few pictures of burnt KNC connectors and cables

I'll be reporting KNC to ARN as well http://www.arn.se/ .
I've got A LOT of stuff against KNC to put together so it may take a couple of days, but the more people that do it the more they will take notice.

I would also report them here http://www.econsumer.gov/english/report/overview.shtm
I just found it and will do it tomorrow but I think the more agencies we can have looking into this "company" the better.

Don't forget to report them to the police http://polisen.se/Kontakta-oss/Polismyndigheter/Sodermanland/
and file an application for payment with the baliffs https://www.kronofogden.se/Ansokaombetalningsforelaggande.html

 I'll be doing that if my invoice isn't paid by its due day this week.

This is an interesting read http://www.millerrosenfalck.com/2013/01/debt-collection-in-sweden/

I noticed that some of your links didn't work out.
And you have the link to the police in 'Södermanland'. Don't think it metter that mutch but more correct should be to Stockholm: http://polisen.se/Kontakta-oss/Polismyndigheter/Stockholms-lan/

[retro72]

Well what a surprise.

You have been banned by Kurt.

The ban will be lifted on 30th October 2014.

KNC don't like the truth being posted on their site.

[retro72]

This is what the lovely Anna said to me today when I told her I would refuse KNC products at the door.

Anna (kncminer)
Sep 30 10:16

Hi,

In case of package refusal, it will be destroyed by UPS, as we do not accept returns.
At the same time, there will be no refund or any compensation given in case of such matter.


Best regards  |
Med vänlig hälsning

Anna Jagdhar

Kncminer
www.kncminer.com
Office: +46 8559 253 20

Pure threats and intimidation. More evidence against them.

[crawz83]

Well what a surprise.

You have been banned by Kurt.

The ban will be lifted on 30th October 2014.

KNC don't like the truth being posted on their site.

Use TOR to get around this.  Randomizes IP every time.

[retro72]

Use TOR to get around this.  Randomizes IP every time.

Oh I'm already back in brother

[crawz83]

Use TOR to get around this.  Randomizes IP every time.

Oh I'm already back in brother

Glad to hear bud, I've skirted the ban for some time now... somehow. 

[crawz83]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/raise-retainer-to-sue-knc-for-titan-refund/x/8768052

This is worth a shot, if anyone out there has excess money and wants to see KNC have a real lawsuit against them.
My lawyer decided that they'll want a retainer, but luckily they have experience in this sort of T&C matter which is why I still want to find a way to do this.
I'm reaching out to the community.

I won't be super let down if this doesn't happen, just worth a shot at something we all want to see. 
I would post regular updates and exact details of the progress.

 

[murraypaul]

KNC take note http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/

“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch, and did so yet again to sell their cloud mining services. They should not get a fourth change (or a fifth chance, in the case of one of the defendants).”

It's interesting to note the FTC called BFL customers "consumers" this blows a hole in the you have to be a business to own miners argument. In the US at least. If the same is proven true in Europe KNC will probably be bankrupted by refunds. I'm going to use every waking minute to find out. The game's afoot.

Who has said you need to be a business to own miners? That is a strawman argument.
The KNC terms and conditions includes a clear requirement that the purchaser agreed that they were purchasing as a business, not a consumer.
Did the BFL TnC include the same term? If not, what does one have to do with the other?