CrazyLoaf's CrazySteak(TM) High PoS Investment Journal

[CrazyLoaf]

RE: Hyper: Need 6.5 BTC worth to generate 4 BTC monthly--> Are you saying an investment of 6.5 BTC would then yield 4 BTC/monthly?
If so..there is no other financial instrument like it anywhere, although I acknowledge the high risk.

Well, I am referring to Hyperstake (HYP) and not HYPER to be clear. It's currently traded on Poloniex, among other sites, but volume is highest there.

Based on the simple interest numbers, HYP pays roughly 61.5% per month. Now, all that means is that if you hold, you can get 61.5% more HYP, that is not necessarily your ROI. My calculation was based on HYP at a stable price. If you buy 6.5 BTC worth of HYP, stake it for one month, you will then have 10.5 BTC (6.5 * 1.615). You can then sell the 4 BTC staked and still have your 6.5 BTC principal.

Now, let's look at the scenario where HYP crashes. Then the staking can bring you to a breakeven point even if the price is permanently depressed as long as you can sell. Say you go buy 6.5 BTC worth of HYP, but then it loses 85% of it's value. Then you have roughly 1 BTC worth of HYP left. Follow this:

Stake 1 month, 1.000*1.615 = 1.615 BTC
Stake 2 month, 1.615*1.615 = 2.608 BTC
Stake 3 month, 2.608*1.615 = 4.212 BTC
Stake 4 month, 4,212*1.615 = 6.803 BTC

So what I've shown here is that even if the coin loses 85% of it's value the minute you buy it, even at that depressed price, you can potentially recover your initial investment in just 4 months of staking. Actually, it will take less time since HYP stakes every 9 days roughly, meaning there are 13.33 stake periods in 4 months, versus just 4.

If you have any questions let me know

[forbesmining]

Yes, I was referring to HYP  I appreciate the clarification on the scenario. I understand when buying HYP the coins must be withdrawn in increments of 1600 to generate maximum staking.

[CrazyLoaf]

Yes, I was referring to HYP  I appreciate the clarification on the scenario. I understand when buying HYP the coins must be withdrawn in increments of 1600 to generate maximum staking.

You don't have to withdraw in that fashion. You can actually withdraw them all to your wallet, and then use coin control to break up the blocks quickly. It's much easier than trying to withdraw over and over from exchanges.

[forbesmining]

Thanks CrazyLoaf, very helpful!

[CrazyLoaf]

CrazyLoaf's CrazySteak(TM) 9/20/14 Update

Alright, table below:

ORG BTC   STAKE   NAME   BTC    COINS    AVG COST   CURRENT   VALUE   30-STAKE   SOLDVAL   SOLD#   AVG SELL   ROI   PLACE
4.65   750%   HYP   4.65    501,169    0.00000928   0.00003095   15.51   9.55    -       -      #DIV/0!   234%   3
7.70   500%   TEK   7.70    45,657    0.00016865   0.00020892   9.54   2.86    -       -      #DIV/0!   24%   ?
4.00   200%   CAP   4.00    142,170    0.00002814   0.00001735   2.47   0.40    -       -      #DIV/0!   -38%   9
7.60   100%   HBN   7.60    134,357    0.00005657   0.00006885   9.25   0.56    -       -      #DIV/0!   22%   7

It doesn't look like BTC Talk likes tables and I'm not fooling with the table command or uploading a pic.

Here's a discussion of what each column means:

- Org BTC: Original BTC amount invested; may get rid of this later
- Stake: % that the coin is rated on a yearly basis; compounded is higher
- Name: Coin Name
- BTC: BTC invested in the coin; considering having this be decreased as coins sold
- Coins: Number of coins I have of that type
- Average Cost: Average cost of that coin based on live invested BTC amount
- Current: Current sat value of the coin, taken as last trade on largest market (either Cryptsy or Poloniex in the case of HYP)
- Value: Current value of those coins
- 30-Stake: Simple calculated amount in BTC that should stake in 30 days; not compounded
- Sold Val: Value in BTC of sold coins
- Sold #: Number of coins sold
- Average Sell: Average sold price of coins
- ROI: Return on investment; should eventually be infinite if I extinguish BTC costs in
- Place: Where my address stands on the rich list

[CrazyLoaf]

Some Additional Updates

Alright, so I've been thinking of how I want to actually operate this thing. I think right now I'll try to do an update about every 5 days. That way, it's not on a weekly or monthly basis and maybe we'll notice something interesting about timing. For example, do a lot of people sell on certain days of the week, once a month, etc.

StakeforSteak(TM)

In line with StakeHunter, I'll be doing a 25% send on stake amounts to exchanges to be sold. I was originally going to do 50%, but it seems there is some mental anchoring around 25%, and I kinda like my position in the HyperStake rich list - sorry David Latapie It's also a good idea to unlock profits over time and more in line with what high PoS is all about. Sell some of your stake to eat (steak)!

Actually, I'll just sell when I want But this is a viable alternative for people who want everything on autopilot

[Mario241077]

i missing ORB in your List.... tzzz

[Majormax]

Useful thread... will probably grow well.

Note Supercoin is absent from the list...  100% PoS, novel anon send system. Plans for a 150% PoS (50% bonus for 'Proof of Rich' ie wallet balance above certain threshold has higher stake rate).
SuperSend Trustless makes heavy use of multisig technology. The sender of the coin will randomly choose 2 middle service nodes from his service node list to help the anonymous transfer. Among the two nodes chosen, one provides the mixing service, and another provides a guarantee service (like a form of escrow, where cheating causes losses to the cheater, because they provide their own coins for the round-trip transaction, getting a small fee)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736705.0

[mtwelve]

In making a similar journal, where should majority of funds go into?

[CrazyLoaf]

In making a similar journal, where should majority of funds go into?

i missing ORB in your List.... tzzz

Useful thread... will probably grow well.

Note Supercoin is absent from the list...  100% PoS, novel anon send system. Plans for a 150% PoS (50% bonus for 'Proof of Rich' ie wallet balance above certain threshold has higher stake rate).

When picking these coins, I started with looking at high PoS and also, truth be told, alliteration in the name However, what ended up happening is I ended up seeing a value in these particular coins. What does a high PoS coin need:

- Decent market cap: Excluding CAP, all of these coins are in the top 100 on Coin Market Cap.
- Decent volume: HYP has the best of this atm, but both CAP and TEK have shown to have good volume when needed, that is, when there are good sell or buy orders and people are looking to move stake.
- Coin age: HBN and TEK are 1+ year old with pretty consistent developers; CAP is old too, but was taken over by a coin dev that has shown to be willing to help a lot of coins (Tranz) and also sort of stick with just working on right now 2 coins (CAP and HBN) versus jumping from PnD to PnD coin. HYP has Presstab, who has sort of done the same in terms of helping coins and now has one under his name as the main dev.
- Coin community: In reference to SUPER, I did plan on picking up 100k SUPER for their PoR, but it looks like some seemingly dumb things (PoD) have caused the coin price to collapse. I paid 0.66 BTC for 22k SUPER which is now worth 0.18 BTC or so. I think SUPER's anon features got people not interested in high PoS in the coin, but rather short term gains. There's also the fact that 100% PoS isn't that apt to absorb price crashes as easily. HBN gets a pass on this since it is an old guard coin, but the fact is that now there are a lot of coins around the 100% PoS level. I've considered getting positions in some, but it will moreso be for pure staking versus what I'm doing with my journal coins.

Really, the more I look at it, the more I like these journal coins versus others. Above the 200% stake level, I think I've covered everything. At 100% and below, yes there are coins that pay the same, but they seem to be more quiet (and high PoS is pretty quiet to begin with).

[CrazyLoaf]

I would also add, technology matters.

HYP and Presstab are considering optimization techniques for blocks to automatically resize and recombine based on staking habits. That's a good angle that can only help one's PoS efficiency. I'm not one to break and recombine blocks to test. About the only times I've broken blocks are at the start to avoid max PoS caps and I'll do it when I start getting dust blocks.

I'd also Stake4Charity (HBN), HyperSend (HYP), Autosavings (CAP) is pretty big at this point for ease of use. I don't want to have to check and send a portion of my stake over manually to sell on exchanges, but I will just pop in an address and let it go and check the exchanges every day or so. It helps if there is a GUI implementation too, since the fewer RPC things, the better, since it can open the coins to wider use by non semi-technicals. You'd be surprised how uncomfortable people are doing seemingly simple things with a guide on a computer.

I'd really like TEK to add something like the above Stake4Charity since I could see myself using that, but not fooling with sending over manually. The nice thing about this is that you don't "feel" like you're losing coin age since the coins are sent just as their being created.

[CrazyLoaf]

So I just noticed hyp went from 800-1000 SAT TO 2800-3000 sat basically overnight. Ive read the last few days on this thread and was looking for an explanation. Any ideas? Not that im complaining, I have a nice amount.

Vegas

I think HYP has done a lot right in terms of high PoS:

- Community: IRC has almost 100 people in it at times.
- Features: GUI HyperSend (automatically send % of stakes), themes, other stuff on the way
- Monero Connection: XMR trading pair and David Latapie on the team of both HYP and XMR
- Stake %: High, but at the same time having someone technical to monitor it constantly (Presstab)

I think if HYP keeps up (pun intended), it has a good chance of sustaining itself above $1M market cap, especially if BTC finds a higher floor. The only high-ish PoS coin above it I can think of is Novacoin (NVC), but it seems pretty dead outside of Russia, and it only pays 3% every 30 days I believe. If HYP could get some Asian exposure (where they really like PoS - some coins are kept alive just by Asian interest), I think it could do really well.

[glendall]

Looks like HBN  is on the upswing  

I think the floor of hbn was .00005, but will rise steadily until a new floor of .00009 or o.0001. That's another great thing I like about pos coins...there is big incentive to buy at the floor because its a fairly save investment, wheresas pow clins , if they hit a floor and you can't stake, there is much less chance they will have a resurgence. (I.e greater incentive to buy cheap pos coins than cheap pow coins, because the pos ability encourages more purchases just for the pos ability alone, which means less likely to ever fall to a new floor.)

To the hbn crowd: if you have big holdings I recommend putting a few k on cryptsy at around these levels, as just stimulates the market overall. It can be discouraging for potential buyers that want to get hbn but seeing nothing much available at around market price. (0.0000+/-2)

[CrazyLoaf]

Looks like HBN  is on the upswing  

I think the floor of hbn was .00005, but will rise steadily until a new floor of .00009 or o.0001. That's another great thing I like about pos coins...there is big incentive to buy at the floor because its a fairly save investment, wheresas pow clins , if they hit a floor and you can't stake, there is much less chance they will have a resurgence. (I.e greater incentive to buy cheap pos coins than cheap pow coins, because the pos ability encourages more purchases just for the pos ability alone, which means less likely to ever fall to a new floor.)

To the hbn crowd: if you have big holdings I recommend putting a few k on cryptsy at around these levels, as just stimulates the market overall. It can be discouraging for potential buyers that want to get hbn but seeing nothing much available at around market price. (0.0000+/-2)

That's what attracted me to these high PoS coins in the recent alt depression (which we may still be in). I started buying HBN in the 4k's, knowing the dev and coin were solid, and it had hit higher price levels before. I didn't feel it could go that much lower, but if it did, the stake could make up for the loss. This is even more true in coins like HYP and TEK with such large rates. The phrase that comes to mind is "Heads I win, tails I don't lose too much."

Just as an update, and I feel like a doofus after requesting the feature in coins like TEK, but there's no way I can keep track of a 25% autosell sort of thing on a daily basis. I still plan on selling some and not hoarding, but I'm just in too many alts to not get the BTC numbers tainted. I still think it's a great feature, but I'm a little too crazy to manage it

[incognitoworker]

Guys, I will mention Super one more time, its lowest price ever and worth some gambling money you can aford to lose if it goes bad.
It wouldnt cost much to pick up enough for their POR, if the coin turns out good, it will bring a substansial return on investment...
I took the gamble myself.

Happy staking

[CrazyLoaf]

Guys, I will mention Super one more time, its lowest price ever and worth some gambling money you can aford to lose if it goes bad.
It wouldnt cost much to pick up enough for their POR, if the coin turns out good, it will bring a substansial return on investment...
I took the gamble myself.

Happy staking

Thanks for the update. I would say to anyone who is new to high PoS or doesn't have the funds to risk to not make SUPER their coin of choice. To get the 100k for Proof of Rich, which is not yet confirmed, will cost almost 1+ BTC, depending on what prices you can pick them up for. I'd say build a portfolio of the 4 coins mentioned in the thread, or, if you REALLY want to go all in on one, pick Hyperstake (HYP).

Stake alone won't carry a coin, and the 100% level is pretty crowded atm. I've already lost a good amount (0.5+ BTC) on SUPER myself to pick up like 20k or so

[Majormax]

Guys, I will mention Super one more time, its lowest price ever and worth some gambling money you can aford to lose if it goes bad.
It wouldnt cost much to pick up enough for their POR, if the coin turns out good, it will bring a substansial return on investment...
I took the gamble myself.

Happy staking

Thanks for the update. I would say to anyone who is new to high PoS or doesn't have the funds to risk to not make SUPER their coin of choice. To get the 100k for Proof of Rich, which is not yet confirmed, will cost almost 1+ BTC, depending on what prices you can pick them up for. I'd say build a portfolio of the 4 coins mentioned in the thread, or, if you REALLY want to go all in on one, pick Hyperstake (HYP).

Stake alone won't carry a coin, and the 100% level is pretty crowded atm. I've already lost a good amount (0.5+ BTC) on SUPER myself to pick up like 20k or so

The coins are generally priced according to risk.. and Super is fair value, being much cheaper than the others. I always like to trade binary outcomes, because the rewards are much greater for success : there is a way of managing the failures to get a little capital back.

[Majormax]

Looks like HBN  is on the upswing  

I think the floor of hbn was .00005, but will rise steadily until a new floor of .00009 or o.0001. That's another great thing I like about pos coins...there is big incentive to buy at the floor because its a fairly save investment, wheresas pow clins , if they hit a floor and you can't stake, there is much less chance they will have a resurgence. (I.e greater incentive to buy cheap pos coins than cheap pow coins, because the pos ability encourages more purchases just for the pos ability alone, which means less likely to ever fall to a new floor.)

To the hbn crowd: if you have big holdings I recommend putting a few k on cryptsy at around these levels, as just stimulates the market overall. It can be discouraging for potential buyers that want to get hbn but seeing nothing much available at around market price. (0.0000+/-2)

Agree...

There is a decent quantity (10,000) offered at around .00008 right now. It is a good opportunity for entry.

[B3dr0ck]

Can you give a little more detail on HBN and CAP, specifically
what is their maturity time for each coin?

I imagine the %interest is based purely on the %/365
So ...
HYP is 750/365 = 2.05% daily
TEK is 500/365 = 1.37% daily

So is CAP 200/365
and HBN 100/365

Knowing the maturity time, gives me the interval to figure out the compounding

I guess I'm gonna make a Crazy Loaf.  I've had some CAPs sitting around a while, I mined them after the big run thinking the prices would return.  Might as well stake em now - while I'm at I should probably through in some HBN and make a loaf of it.  (I've already got TEK and HYP)

[CrazyLoaf]

Can you give a little more detail on HBN and CAP, specifically
what is their maturity time for each coin?

I imagine the %interest is based purely on the %/365
So ...
HYP is 750/365 = 2.05% daily
TEK is 500/365 = 1.37% daily

So is CAP 200/365
and HBN 100/365

Knowing the maturity time, gives me the interval to figure out the compounding

I guess I'm gonna make a Crazy Loaf.  I've had some CAPs sitting around a while, I mined them after the big run thinking the prices would return.  Might as well stake em now - while I'm at I should probably through in some HBN and make a loaf of it.  (I've already got TEK and HYP)

Here they are:

HYP (750%): min 9, max 30 : min 1 > 973.9 : max 1 > 345.27
TEK (500%): 30 min, max 90 : min 1 > 60.13
CAP (200%): 15 min, max 45 : min 1 > 6.83 : max 1 > 5.98
HBN (100%): 10 min, max ? : min 1 > 2.06

I went ahead and gave you the compounded as well. It's what each unit of currency turns into on compounding, roughly. Note that none of these take into account the max block rewards and daily block limit. For example, HYP will probably not compound close to x1000. If the HYP thing has anything to share on growth/inflation, they're welcome to. I think they had a numbers guy looking at it