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Author Topic: Funds “frozen” in TyGrr-Bot’s MtGox account.  (Read 5328 times)
stochastic
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May 07, 2012, 06:54:04 AM
 #61

Didn't you knew that Mark offered himself and his company to be DEA snitches?
Or is it bitches instead of snitches? I always get confused... Roll Eyes

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/06/15/financial-bitcoin-idUKN1510930920110615

All financial institutes are snitches whether in the US or not as if they don't comply with US financial disclosures then they will be cut out of the US financial industry.  It may also be illegal under US law to tell a customer they are calling the police or submitting a SAR.

Hopefully the Bitcoinica/Intersango thing will eventually turn into a new full-fledge spot exchange.

Don't hold your hopes for Intersango... Haven't you seen the thread where they locked the bitcoins of a dude who told them he wanted to withdraw the BTC to a silk road address?
Yeah, that was stupid of him Grin

you're joking right lol and the award to the worlds dumbest criminal goes too....


Well the only real hope is to get a network of hand to hand exchanges....

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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doldgigger
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May 07, 2012, 03:52:47 PM
 #62

Didn't you knew that Mark offered himself and his company to be DEA snitches?
Or is it bitches instead of snitches? I always get confused... Roll Eyes

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/06/15/financial-bitcoin-idUKN1510930920110615

All financial institutes are snitches whether in the US or not as if they don't comply with US financial disclosures then they will be cut out of the US financial industry.  It may also be illegal under US law to tell a customer they are calling the police or submitting a SAR.

Hopefully the Bitcoinica/Intersango thing will eventually turn into a new full-fledge spot exchange.

He is just saving his ass from legal us problems, I don't see what's wrong with mark doing that?

Complying with legal obligations is one thing. Actively searching for opportunities to hand over more confidential customer data to various agencies around the globe is another. I am not aware of any law which would make it necessary for MtGox to hand over data to the DEA by itself. And, if you see how many of their customers MtGox pissed on by now (just look around on the forums...), I'm sure they would immediately post it in order to repair some of their reputation if there was any.

On the other hand, MtGox' new business model of tracing back user identities for accounts which are suspected to use certain marketplaces raises some privacy concerns. If there was an actual crime investigation involved upon which data is requested, MtGox can send this information to the customers whose privacy was violated, and these customers can seek the help of a lawyer to defend themselves. On the other hand, if MtGox loosens their privacy terms in order to play police themselves and just sends data about users using certain marketplaces out (without any crime involved), we experience a shift from constitutional democracies to a more totalitarian model.

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doldgigger
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May 07, 2012, 04:07:51 PM
 #63

At least Paypal returns frozen funds back after 180 days...

is mtgox really not returning funds? what happens to that money? although in mtgox defense it doesn't take much to be honest and submit your verification and for go these problems which I'm hoping will happen for me this week although I'm already verified.....

I think MtGox would be well advised to advertise a maximum freeze time (and to honour it) in order to improve their reputation. This way, using that exchange is still a bit lottery-like, but at least the damage done is somehow limited.

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May 07, 2012, 04:15:15 PM
 #64

Complying with legal obligations is one thing. Actively searching for opportunities to hand over more confidential customer data to various agencies around the globe is another. I am not aware of any law which would make it necessary for MtGox to hand over data to the DEA by itself. And, if you see how many of their customers MtGox pissed on by now (just look around on the forums...), I'm sure they would immediately post it in order to repair some of their reputation if there was any.

On the other hand, MtGox' new business model of tracing back user identities for accounts which are suspected to use certain marketplaces raises some privacy concerns. If there was an actual crime investigation involved upon which data is requested, MtGox can send this information to the customers whose privacy was violated, and these customers can seek the help of a lawyer to defend themselves. On the other hand, if MtGox loosens their privacy terms in order to play police themselves and just sends data about users using certain marketplaces out (without any crime involved), we experience a shift from constitutional democracies to a more totalitarian model.

+1000

And trying to comply with every law out there in the world will NEVER work, as trying to comply with some absurd law of a remote country on the other side of the globe, you can actually violate the law of the country in which you sit in  - e.g. the remote country wants freezing accounts and releasing information, on the contrary local law forbids freezing accounts without LOCAL court order and has strict privacy laws. Just a potential example.

I believe it would be the best if MtGox stopped trying to comply with laws worldwide, just stick to a single jurisdiction - where they actually sit their asses and can be arrested. Comply ONLY with Japanese law, Japanese AML and Japanese court orders. And ignore everything else. Close all foreign bank accounts, and keep only account in Japan. Rely on other people/companies selling MtGox codes worldwide.

Then the customer could actually know what to expect, could be quoted specific laws on which specific actions are taken.

Single jurisdiction exchange is the only way to operate sanely. Otherwise there will ALWAYS be some law somewhere in the world on which some exchange freezing/data-release/etc action could be based, and there is always some law you would break, no matter what you do. Stick to Japan, forget US and other bullshit. For US its best not to ever visit it also, because they've crazy laws and crazy law enforcement, and trying to play world policeman.

Think Neteller: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/17/neteller_founders_arrested/
http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/January07/netellerarrestspr.pdf

No non-US Bitcoin exchange executive worldwide should ever visit US nor hold US bank accounts. That's the only feasible way to operate.

doldgigger
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May 07, 2012, 04:59:53 PM
 #65

Didn't you knew that Mark offered himself and his company to be DEA snitches?
Or is it bitches instead of snitches? I always get confused... Roll Eyes

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/06/15/financial-bitcoin-idUKN1510930920110615

All financial institutes are snitches whether in the US or not as if they don't comply with US financial disclosures then they will be cut out of the US financial industry.  It may also be illegal under US law to tell a customer they are calling the police or submitting a SAR.

Hopefully the Bitcoinica/Intersango thing will eventually turn into a new full-fledge spot exchange.

Don't hold your hopes for Intersango... Haven't you seen the thread where they locked the bitcoins of a dude who told them he wanted to withdraw the BTC to a silk road address?
Yeah, that was stupid of him Grin

you're joking right lol and the award to the worlds dumbest criminal goes too....


Well the only real hope is to get a network of hand to hand exchanges....

Do you mean hard cash for bitcoins? If so: this would really be nice to have, and if these things start opening up in all places, we will have a secure world-wide cash-transfer system...

On the other hand, there are considerable resources involved in properly operating such an exchange. You'll need quite some physical security in order to cope with possible robbing attempts operating such an exchange would attract. If it weren't so sad, I would laugh my now (the largest BTC exchange accuses us as being criminals one by one, pushing us into becoming victims of real criminals...)

However, I think the whole bitcoin thing became big because of internet possibilities, and it can still use them to grow further. We just need to avoid creating single points of failure, like MtGox strives to be one. What we need is a common API for exchanges, and ideally a free software to operate one. This way, exchanges can be easily interchanged, and after some time more reliable ones will emerge because through the fiercer competition, no one can afford to pull MtGox-like stunts without quickly losing customers. Another thing that would allow to expand on this approach would be some mechanism by which customers and exchanges can prove that certain transactions have happened. This way, we could put up a secure rating system for exchanges by which new users can constantly follow which exchanges have the highest chance of correctly processing transactions.

Finally, I'd like to write some words to all currently operating and future exchange operators.

We cannot neglect that there are some problems involved with different countries' laws. Some may have chosen a bad jurisdiction to operate the exchange on. But if the exchange runs well and it's just some local law that is creating the risk for you to have to piss on your customers, please consider to move the exchange to another country. If you don't have the opportunities or the balls to operate it yourself in another country, I'm sure someone would pay a good price for a well-running exchange.

Another thing is the US financial crime regulation which is striving to have effects on other countries. One might argue that these effects may still be limited by local laws (after all, it's your local politicians protecting your local people's privacy rights who have to fight this out with the US). But in many cases, it may be better to have two separate legal entities, one with US financial business connections and a pure non-US entity. These should still work together rather seamlessly in order to provide a nice user experience, but this approach limits the data where US authorities may even think about requesting access...

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Feel free to PM me for consulting and development services.
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