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Author Topic: Funds “frozen” in TyGrr-Bot’s MtGox account.  (Read 5320 times)
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May 01, 2012, 03:41:30 AM
 #21

As well as, if I read it right, the payouts were to two different non-contiguous continents also. You'd typically expect spouses to have their accounts within the same geographic region, so this would count as another red flag, begging to be verified.

-- Smoov

You forget the part where they asked Mt. Gox first before they did anything, Mt. Gox said it's OK, then after they made the transaction decided it was illegal and froze the account. WTF!

Where is the documentation of that in the OP?  I did not see that.
I can't explain your inability to comprehend what you read nor can I determine which portions you did not read. Try P3 for a start.

For Bitcoin to be a true global currency the value of BTC needs always to rise.
If BTC became the global currency & money supply = 100 Trillion then ⊅1.00 BTC = $4,761,904.76.
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May 01, 2012, 03:43:48 AM
 #22

As well as, if I read it right, the payouts were to two different non-contiguous continents also. You'd typically expect spouses to have their accounts within the same geographic region, so this would count as another red flag, begging to be verified.

-- Smoov

You forget the part where they asked Mt. Gox first before they did anything, Mt. Gox said it's OK, then after they made the transaction decided it was illegal and froze the account. WTF!

Where is the documentation of that in the OP?  I did not see that.

Then you can't read.  Seriously, I'd have to paste the first 20% of the OP.

Actually I was being an ass because all that was said about getting prior approval to have his wife send money to Chaang-Noi's US bank account was:

Quote
Magical Tux was made aware. Magical Tux personally gave permission to Chaang-Noi to allow his wife to set up an account and have it AML verified. The AML was not only approved but the limit on the account was raised when requested.

also

Quote
After this international wire was sent Chaang-Noi contacted Mt Gox staff (Not Magical Tux) to find out if an AML verified account could send money to their spouse. It was repeatedly made clear by a member of Mt Gox staff that this would not be a problem.

No actual emails or irc chats were posted discussing this, so I don't see this as documentation to prove that a proper request was made.  MagicalTux can't release the communication so it is only one person's version of the facts.

I heard this was being resolved so that is good.  It seems like what is needed for any of the TyGrr businesses is to separate the businesses from each other, get proper business bank accounts, and properly verify identification for the money managers of the businesses.

It amazes me that people will test the most mundane things before going at it for real, but when it comes to big things they don't.  Test all withdraw options before putting a lot of money into anything.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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May 01, 2012, 03:48:29 AM
 #23

Thailand along with several other countries that have active terrorist cells or the equivalent, are on a "watch list" with most reputable financial institutuions so transfers in and out of these locations take more time and documents than what is required for countries not on watch lists.

So watchlist + even the slightest inconsistency =

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May 01, 2012, 03:49:10 AM
 #24

As well as, if I read it right, the payouts were to two different non-contiguous continents also. You'd typically expect spouses to have their accounts within the same geographic region, so this would count as another red flag, begging to be verified.

-- Smoov

You forget the part where they asked Mt. Gox first before they did anything, Mt. Gox said it's OK, then after they made the transaction decided it was illegal and froze the account. WTF!
Well, yes they did... and then when they were actually made, 2 different continents...

When someone tells me something needs to be sent to their wife, I pretty much expect the same address unless told differently, and then, it is still typically in the same general area.

But, if I'm sending something to someone's wife, and that her address ends up on the other side of the freakin' planet? Yeah, that's a serious WTF moment.

I wouldn't tend to ask the husband "is she also in North America?" That would just be stupid.

Sorry, but this situation, as described by the participants, would make me feel uncomfortable too, to the point of freezing everything, and wanting some verification/confirmation of who I'm dealing with.

Cuz... if I allowed it to go through, and it turned out to be a scammer who hacked their accounts? That, is SOOO much worse.

MtGox is handling it properly and professionally. It is Goat who is turning this into the major whiney bitch-fest it has become, which is additionally suspicious.

-- Smoov

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May 01, 2012, 03:50:59 AM
 #25

MtGox is handling it properly and professionally. It is Goat who is turning this into the major whiney bitch-fest it has become, which is additionally suspicious.
I must add my +1 to this.

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May 01, 2012, 04:05:02 AM
 #26

As well as, if I read it right, the payouts were to two different non-contiguous continents also. You'd typically expect spouses to have their accounts within the same geographic region, so this would count as another red flag, begging to be verified.

-- Smoov

You forget the part where they asked Mt. Gox first before they did anything, Mt. Gox said it's OK, then after they made the transaction decided it was illegal and froze the account. WTF!

Where is the documentation of that in the OP?  I did not see that.
I can't explain your inability to comprehend what you read nor can I determine which portions you did not read. Try P3 for a start.

Directly quote in the OP where people from mtgox state that it is ok to wire money from his wife's mtgox account to his bank account in America.  I only see emails stating that his wife account is verified and asking how long it will take for verification to be completed.

While I personally don't like mtgox's verification procedures, but it is a price we have to pay since bitcoins are not accepted everywhere.  From what I read in the OP they seemed to respond professionally.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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May 01, 2012, 04:15:47 AM
 #27

As stated in the OP the approval to send the wire to an account that was not of the AML owner was done by a Mt. Gox support member that was not M Tux. This is not disputed and we have the logs. However to protect the other staff member who it now seems might have given bad advice we will not list his name or his logs unless Mt. Gox would like to claim the events never happened.

@BigPiggy 

The TyGrr operations are happy to work with Mt. Gox to help them stay operating legally and under the very unclear for us AML laws. We are happy to submit to them documents that they have now requested. Threats of law enforcement and frozen funds being sent to court is what we objected to as being unreasonable. Keep in mind the account was AML verified and we have so far this morning uploaded 5 new documents with several more coming shortly.

Thank you.
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May 01, 2012, 04:39:18 AM
 #28

Quote
@BigPiggy

The TyGrr operations are happy to work with Mt. Gox to help them stay operating legally and under the very unclear for us AML laws. We are happy to submit to them documents that they have now requested. Threats of law enforcement and frozen funds being sent to court is what we objected to as being unreasonable. Keep in mind the account was AML verified and we have so far this morning uploaded 5 new documents with several more coming shortly.

Glad to see it Smiley

I once had to spend three weeks trying to pay a Pakistani pine nut supplier and had a similar issue, so I know this can be a SLOW and PAINFUL process that does no one any good.

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May 01, 2012, 05:02:29 AM
 #29

We uploaded 10 documents as requested and then received this e-mail.

Dear TyGrr-Bot,

We regret to inform you that the identification documentation you have submitted has been reviewed, and your request has been temporarily denied.

Reasons(s)

One individual's identity may only be linked to one account. If you have more than one account and wish to submit AML information for all of your accounts you will need to contact support (support@mtgox.com) to merge your accounts first. Please do not resubmit your AML request until after your accounts have been merged.

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may cause, but it would be greatly appreciated if you resubmit the requested clarification(s) above.

Otherwise, if you would like to make further enquiries in relation to this, please do not hesitate to contact Mt.Gox Support.




We only followed the directions of Mark,



Hi,

If it's about two married people, then it should be easy. We need the following documents:

- Marriage registration certificate (if not in english, please join translation)
- ID of the withdraw recipient
- Proof of address for withdraw recipient

You can scan and upload the documents via https://mtgox.com/forms/verification after logging in.


Thanks,
Mark
MtGox.com Team



However TyGrr is more than happy to follow the directions of Mt. Gox as we trust that they are following all laws and this is something we support. We will ask for information about the merging process and how to accomplish it.

Thank you.
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May 01, 2012, 02:06:45 PM
 #30

So, no full story.

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May 01, 2012, 02:29:53 PM
 #31

Listen, NO ONE CARES, because it is just a one sided rant. Going public with this without letting MtGox tell their side of the story just shows how you cannot be trusted to run a competent business.

If you have any balls to speak of, you will give authorization to MtGox to reply with their side of the story, including any information that may be normally protected under their privacy policy.

Otherwise, I would recommend that you delete all postings related to this incident and stop digging your own grave.

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May 01, 2012, 06:15:40 PM
 #32

The facts:
1. Chang-noi was attempting to link 2 identities to one account and contacted Mt. Gox support via IRC for how to proceed
2. Mt. Gox allowed and instructed identity 2 to setup and then assisted to get AML approval
3. Identity 1 or 2 attempted to transfer funds to identity 2's account
4. Then and only then did Mt. Gox react to a potential illegal action

While much can be assumed as to why Mt. Gox allowed the situation to escalate to an account achieving frozen status, it is clear from what the OP posted, Mt. Gox failed to ask proper follow up questions during the initial support incident. Had Mt. Gox asked a few more questions they could have prevented any interruption in service of the customers account. Mt. Gox failed to act responsibly early on and had allowed a situation to escalate until frozen funds were the result. Mt. Gox had a mental pause moment and they should work to restore the account to the previous conditions before the incident and apologize for the failure on their part to clarify the correct legal requirements limiting such account activity.

Both parties are guilty of acting irresponsibly carrying out business transactions in a manner that is uncommon to standard business practices employed by the majority of legitimate businesses acting responsibly.

For Bitcoin to be a true global currency the value of BTC needs always to rise.
If BTC became the global currency & money supply = 100 Trillion then ⊅1.00 BTC = $4,761,904.76.
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May 01, 2012, 07:06:05 PM
 #33

Quote
The facts:

3. Identity 1 attempted to transfer funds to identity 2's account
4. Then and only then did Mt. Gox react to a potential illegal action
2. Mt. Gox allowed and instructed identity 2 to setup and then assisted to get AML approval
1. Chang-noi was attempting to link 2 identities to one account and contacted Mt. Gox support via IRC for how to proceed

While much can be assumed as to why Mt. Gox and Tygrr allowed the situation to escalate to an account achieving frozen status, it is clear from what the OP posted, Mt. Gox and Tygrr failed to ask proper follow up questions during the initial support incident. Had Mt. Gox and Tygrr asked a few more questions they could have prevented any interruption in service. Mt. Gox and Tygrr failed to act responsibly early on and had allowed a situation to escalate until frozen funds were the result. Mt. Gox and Tygrr had a mental pause moment and they should work to restore the account to the previous conditions before the incident.

Both parties are guilty of acting irresponsibly carrying out business transactions in a manner that is uncommon to standard business practices employed by the majority of legitimate businesses acting responsibly.

FTFY

Removed your stamp Grin No mockery intended; paraphrasing you

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May 01, 2012, 10:00:41 PM
 #34

Mr. James, do you now understand why it is a bad idea for your service to issue counterfeit securities?
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May 01, 2012, 10:11:52 PM
 #35

The facts:

3. Identity 1 attempted to transfer funds to identity 2's account
4. Then and only then did Mt. Gox react to a potential illegal action
2. Mt. Gox allowed and instructed identity 2 to setup and then assisted to get AML approval
1. Chang-noi was attempting to link 2 identities to one account and contacted Mt. Gox support via IRC for how to proceed

While much can be assumed as to why Mt. Gox and Tygrr allowed the situation to escalate to an account achieving frozen status, it is clear from what the OP posted, Mt. Gox and Tygrr failed to ask proper follow up questions during the initial support incident. Had Mt. Gox and Tygrr asked a few more questions they could have prevented any interruption in service. Mt. Gox and Tygrr failed to act responsibly early on and had allowed a situation to escalate until frozen funds were the result. Mt. Gox and Tygrr had a mental pause moment and they should work to restore the account to the previous conditions before the incident.

Both parties are guilty of acting irresponsibly carrying out business transactions in a manner that is uncommon to standard business practices employed by the majority of legitimate businesses acting responsibly.

FTFY
You mock me sir. You have added distortion to my post. I  demand you remove the space below 'The facts:' to maintain my formatting!

For Bitcoin to be a true global currency the value of BTC needs always to rise.
If BTC became the global currency & money supply = 100 Trillion then ⊅1.00 BTC = $4,761,904.76.
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May 01, 2012, 10:13:21 PM
 #36

Just to recap: "Goat" claims that his high dividend is from arbitrage income, made by constantly shifting bitcoins into and out of various currencies.

Now he claims that he attempted to sell some "significant" number of bitcoins and transfer the proceeds to a bank in Thailand. This transaction was denied by Mt. Gox, the largest bitcoin exchange.

Does this suggest to you "Goat" had ever made any transactions from Bitcoin to any currency, the claimed arbitrage, prior to this moment?

Does this suggest to you that he was attempting to withdraw the entire amount raised by selling counterfeit securities?

Is the transfer of proceeds from the sale of counterfeit securities between international banks considered money laundering?
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May 01, 2012, 10:20:16 PM
 #37

Just to recap: "Goat" claims that his high dividend is from arbitrage income, made by constantly shifting bitcoins into and out of various currencies.

Now he claims that he attempted to sell some "significant" number of bitcoins and transfer the proceeds to a bank in Thailand. This transaction was denied by Mt. Gox, the largest bitcoin exchange.

Does this suggest to you "Goat" had ever made any transactions from Bitcoin to any currency, the claimed arbitrage, prior to this moment?

Does this suggest to you that he was attempting to withdraw the entire amount raised by selling counterfeit securities?

Is the transfer of proceeds from the sale of counterfeit securities between international banks considered money laundering?
Seeking investors and suggesting a possible return on investment is one thing, but selling actual shares/securities is something far more regulated and scrutinized. I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but I work in finance and know that selling shares is serious business.
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May 01, 2012, 10:34:16 PM
 #38

Just to recap: "Goat" claims that his high dividend is from arbitrage income, made by constantly shifting bitcoins into and out of various currencies.

Now he claims that he attempted to sell some "significant" number of bitcoins and transfer the proceeds to a bank in Thailand. This transaction was denied by Mt. Gox, the largest bitcoin exchange.

Does this suggest to you "Goat" had ever made any transactions from Bitcoin to any currency, the claimed arbitrage, prior to this moment?

Does this suggest to you that he was attempting to withdraw the entire amount raised by selling counterfeit securities?

Is the transfer of proceeds from the sale of counterfeit securities between international banks considered money laundering?
Seeking investors and suggesting a possible return on investment is one thing, but selling actual shares/securities is something far more regulated and scrutinized. I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but I work in finance and know that selling shares is serious business.

I recently tried to explain to Mr. James of GLBSE the difference between issuing and providing custodianship for shares, and the services a stock exchange provides. Perhaps you can do a better job.
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May 01, 2012, 11:05:36 PM
 #39

Just to recap: "Goat" claims that his high dividend is from arbitrage income, made by constantly shifting bitcoins into and out of various currencies.

Now he claims that he attempted to sell some "significant" number of bitcoins and transfer the proceeds to a bank in Thailand. This transaction was denied by Mt. Gox, the largest bitcoin exchange.

Does this suggest to you "Goat" had ever made any transactions from Bitcoin to any currency, the claimed arbitrage, prior to this moment?

Does this suggest to you that he was attempting to withdraw the entire amount raised by selling counterfeit securities?

Is the transfer of proceeds from the sale of counterfeit securities between international banks considered money laundering?
Seeking investors and suggesting a possible return on investment is one thing, but selling actual shares/securities is something far more regulated and scrutinized. I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but I work in finance and know that selling shares is serious business.

I recently tried to explain to Mr. James of GLBSE the difference between issuing and providing custodianship for shares, and the services a stock exchange provides. Perhaps you can do a better job.

Depends what types of shares you're talking about (preferred, callable, convertible, common, etc), but generally speaking when one buys and sells shares, they're issued via proxy in a street name, such as "Cede & Co." / DTC (google it), which theoretically improves liquidity. A custodian account, such as those held with a custodian bank or a private family fund, may hold shares in the name of the actual title holder. Custodian accounts offer a layer of legal protection against various kinds of risk, and if they're properly established in the name of the trustee, then they provide bona fide ownership rights without exemption (although this is rare). Custodian accounts are designed to unambiguously establish title and ownership as specifically as possible.

Regardless of how shares are held, the exchange is simply a regulated (vs. OTC) market whose "market makers" (google it) provide liquidity --- bid / ask --- under mutually agreed upon terms. For example, the NYSE only holds shares of a stock insofar as a market maker must maintain those shares for liquidity purposes --- not investment purposes. A computer typically performs this function. Think of an exchange as a meeting place where everyone gets together to make deals.

I don't know how this relates to GLBSE, as I don't follow the GLBSE, but now I'm curious and am going to have to check it out!
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May 01, 2012, 11:25:40 PM
 #40



I don't know how this relates to GLBSE, as I don't follow the GLBSE, but now I'm curious and am going to have to check it out!

Its not as complicated as you are probably thinking.

GLBSE a website where you create a bitcoin denominated securities without providing any information as to who you are.

Additionally, It's not a decentralized service and it is ran by a guy that lives in the UK, and the servers are in the United States.

I recently tried to explain to him that this is a terrible idea.

The person that started this thread is the "founder" of one of these GLBSE companies. Their claim was that they were making arbitrage trades between BTC and unspecified currency. It appears this person is now trying to make like Sam Israel III with the principal.

It wouldn't be funny, but this is probably over a very tiny amount of money.
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