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Author Topic: Moderation of (possible) FUD and insults  (Read 14753 times)
mprep
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September 18, 2014, 03:17:49 PM
 #1

Topic locked as the unofficial list of rules covers the material: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0



After receiving a lot of PMs about this subject, seeing a lot of reports of this kind and after one of the global mods PMed me with suggestions regarding this topic, I thought that I should cover it:

Possible (or real, not for me to judge) FUD, accusations or statements are NOT moderated.

Moderators don't moderate for truth. However, trolling isn't allowed. If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited. However, such cases should be thoroughly documented in the report (There are tons of reports that just say "trolling", but moderators don't have time to look through each user's post).

Possible (since we don't have the time or resources to check) insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content. However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

Possible scams aren't moderated either due to the fact that's it's extremely hard to make an unbiased decision on a limited amount of evidence and time. Moderators don't have time to be investigators.

Legal note: This is forum policy, not mine.


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September 18, 2014, 03:27:21 PM
 #2

Moderators don't moderate for truth. However, trolling isn't allowed. If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited. However, such cases should be thoroughly documented in the report (There are tons of reports that just say "trolling", but moderators don't have time to look through each user's post).

That is perfect. I am sure you will have tough work to do it.

 

Insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content.

I am not sure if you are right here. There are much bigger insults constantly used as calling someone dumb and those should be sorted out fast.




But i have question. Is there punishment for those that continuously repeat this mistakes? Do they get temporary or permanent IP bans?

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mprep
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September 18, 2014, 03:49:36 PM
 #3

Moderators don't moderate for truth. However, trolling isn't allowed. If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited. However, such cases should be thoroughly documented in the report (There are tons of reports that just say "trolling", but moderators don't have time to look through each user's post).

That is perfect. I am sure you will have tough work to do it.

 

Insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content.

I am not sure if you are right here. There are much bigger insults constantly used as calling someone dumb and those should be sorted out fast.




But i have question. Is there punishment for those that continuously repeat this mistakes? Do they get temporary or permanent IP bans?
Updated the OP with a clarification:

Quote
However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

If you repeatedly break the rules, yes, you will get banned. When and for how long is really case-by-case basis.


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September 18, 2014, 04:25:48 PM
 #4

Slander and insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content. However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

Do you really mean slander? There could be legal implications, certainly there are slander (and libel for print and other media) laws here in UK, and I'm sure variations of the same in other countries. Completely agree (FWIW) that if a potentially contentious statement is made it must be backed up with evidence.

Cheers, Ngaio

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September 18, 2014, 04:51:34 PM
 #5

Slander and insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content. However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

Do you really mean slander? There could be legal implications, certainly there are slander (and libel for print and other media) laws here in UK, and I'm sure variations of the same in other countries. Completely agree (FWIW) that if a potentially contentious statement is made it must be backed up with evidence.

Cheers, Ngaio
As far as I understand most laws only have laws regarding the expression of slander as it can be censored as it isn't considered any kind of creative, scientific or otherwise constructive expression. Aside from that, all legal matters regarding slander fall on the person who expressed it, since it's his decision.

Edited the post to change it to a bit more mild meaning.


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September 21, 2014, 04:58:37 AM
 #6

Communities attack people who say anything negative because these communities have money invested that could be lost. They don't care about the truth, they care about making $$$$.

Crypto currencies are a war of information.

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September 21, 2014, 09:12:30 PM
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Moderators don't have time to be investigators.





Synonym for moderator - investigator. How can you address a problem, situation [moderate] if you don't investigate aka have any idea of whats going on.
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September 21, 2014, 10:35:29 PM
 #8


Moderators don't have time to be investigators.



Then lets get more moderators. Clearly you are incapable of doing the job alone. Thanks.


Synonym for moderator - investigator. How can you address a problem, situation [moderate] if you don't investigate aka have any idea of whats going on.
Moderators moderate spam, they don't dig for evidence through the whole internet to check if a person's not lying. The forum policy is free speech - whether you lie or tell the truth, scam or not, is not our concern.


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September 21, 2014, 11:04:51 PM
 #9

good decision and mprep u seem to be doin a very good job cleanin up the alt part

~CfA~

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September 21, 2014, 11:16:17 PM
 #10


Moderators don't have time to be investigators.



Then lets get more moderators. Clearly you are incapable of doing the job alone. Thanks.


Synonym for moderator - investigator. How can you address a problem, situation [moderate] if you don't investigate aka have any idea of whats going on.
Moderators moderate spam, they don't dig for evidence through the whole internet to check if a person's not lying. The forum policy is free speech - whether you lie or tell the truth, scam or not, is not our concern.

We have algorithms that can remove spam... So what your saying is there is absolutely no need for moderators? Because free speech limits them from being able to hinder negative feedback loops?

You contradict yourself in saying - whether you lie... is not our concern; when previously you stated "Obviously false whatever" is what you moderate. How can you tell what is obviously false if you dont dig for evidence.
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September 21, 2014, 11:21:38 PM
 #11

whether you admit to it or not, you are inefficiently serving the moderator role: whether it be lack of time on your part, or an inability to discern "obviously false information"

Clearly the alternate cryptocurrency forum is large enough to need more than one moderator. Many of the forums have three.
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September 21, 2014, 11:22:53 PM
 #12

Also, what are the contingencies under which something is obviously false; therefore i may better understand the role of the moderators.

-enlighten me, please
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September 22, 2014, 04:07:20 AM
 #13

I like that way mprep moderates the Altcoin area. I also like that they don't censor too much here. Keep up the good work.  Grin
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September 22, 2014, 05:48:29 AM
 #14

After receiving a lot of PMs about this subject, seeing a lot of reports of this kind and after one of the global mods PMed me with suggestions regarding this topic, I thought that I should cover it:

Possible (or real, not for me to judge) FUD, accusations or statements are not moderated.

Moderators don't moderate for truth. However, trolling isn't allowed. If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited. However, such cases should be thoroughly documented in the report (There are tons of reports that just say "trolling", but moderators don't have time to look through each user's post).

(Possible) slander and insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content. However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

Scams aren't moderated either due to the fact that's it's extremely hard to make an unbiased decision on a limited amount of evidence and time. Moderators don't have time to be investigators

I've never seen slander so specifically addressed before. Is this your personal policy, or the policy of the forum? If the forum's policy, can you link me to a reference for it? If it's your policy, is your information available, or your lawyer's information? I'm aware of the forums free speech policy, so don't just use that a reference. Specifcally recognizing slander and saying it won't be removed is different from free speech, since slander is not covered under free speech laws. Did you get advice from a lawyer before posting this policy? Because you have probably opened yourself, and possibly the forum to legal liability depending on your answer to the first question.


 
Slander and insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content. However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

Do you really mean slander? There could be legal implications, certainly there are slander (and libel for print and other media) laws here in UK, and I'm sure variations of the same in other countries. Completely agree (FWIW) that if a potentially contentious statement is made it must be backed up with evidence.

Cheers, Ngaio
As far as I understand most laws only have laws regarding the expression of slander as it can be censored as it isn't considered any kind of creative, scientific or otherwise constructive expression. Aside from that, all legal matters regarding slander fall on the person who expressed it, since it's his decision.

Edited the post to change it to a bit more mild meaning.

No, since this forum allows people to post anonymously via proxies such as tor, and it's impossible to track them down, it falls on the forum to moderate it.
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September 22, 2014, 04:56:35 PM
 #15


Moderators don't have time to be investigators.



Then lets get more moderators. Clearly you are incapable of doing the job alone. Thanks.


Synonym for moderator - investigator. How can you address a problem, situation [moderate] if you don't investigate aka have any idea of whats going on.
Moderators moderate spam, they don't dig for evidence through the whole internet to check if a person's not lying. The forum policy is free speech - whether you lie or tell the truth, scam or not, is not our concern.

We have algorithms that can remove spam... So what your saying is there is absolutely no need for moderators? Because free speech limits them from being able to hinder negative feedback loops?

You contradict yourself in saying - whether you lie... is not our concern; when previously you stated "Obviously false whatever" is what you moderate. How can you tell what is obviously false if you dont dig for evidence.
There is a difference between "lying" and "obviously false nonsense". One is indistinguishable or requires quite a bit of time to investigate it, while the other can be noticed from first glance. You've taken out the "obviously false" phrase out of context. If you find it hard to see the difference between the two, is again, not my problem.

whether you admit to it or not, you are inefficiently serving the moderator role: whether it be lack of time on your part, or an inability to discern "obviously false information"

Clearly the alternate cryptocurrency forum is large enough to need more than one moderator. Many of the forums have three.
I was asigned here to clean up trash, not dig through a hay pile to find a needle. If you feel someone is posting false information, use the "Ignore" feature or counter his posts. Also if the dev has a self moderated thread, he can "ban" (ask him to leave) users from posting in it. If he keeps doing posting in the self moderated thread, PM theymos or BadBear to have him banned.

Also, all global mods and admins can delete posts forum-wide including here, and patroller mods can delete newbie posts forum-wide as well.

Also, what are the contingencies under which something is obviously false; therefore i may better understand the role of the moderators.

-enlighten me, please
Posting about a coin adressing it with a different, unrelates name name (constantly, post after post, calling xcoin by the name of yyycoin for no reason), talking about a completely different algo (PoW, instead of PoS, for example constantly posting something along the lines "Why didn't you stop the PoW phase?" when the coin is pure PoS and always was).

After receiving a lot of PMs about this subject, seeing a lot of reports of this kind and after one of the global mods PMed me with suggestions regarding this topic, I thought that I should cover it:

Possible (or real, not for me to judge) FUD, accusations or statements are not moderated.

Moderators don't moderate for truth. However, trolling isn't allowed. If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited. However, such cases should be thoroughly documented in the report (There are tons of reports that just say "trolling", but moderators don't have time to look through each user's post).

(Possible) slander and insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content. However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

Scams aren't moderated either due to the fact that's it's extremely hard to make an unbiased decision on a limited amount of evidence and time. Moderators don't have time to be investigators

I've never seen slander so specifically addressed before. Is this your personal policy, or the policy of the forum? If the forum's policy, can you link me to a reference for it? If it's your policy, is your information available, or your lawyer's information? I'm aware of the forums free speech policy, so don't just use that a reference. Specifcally recognizing slander and saying it won't be removed is different from free speech, since slander is not covered under free speech laws. Did you get advice from a lawyer before posting this policy? Because you have probably opened yourself, and possibly the forum to legal liability depending on your answer to the first question.


 
Slander and insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content. However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

Do you really mean slander? There could be legal implications, certainly there are slander (and libel for print and other media) laws here in UK, and I'm sure variations of the same in other countries. Completely agree (FWIW) that if a potentially contentious statement is made it must be backed up with evidence.

Cheers, Ngaio
As far as I understand most laws only have laws regarding the expression of slander as it can be censored as it isn't considered any kind of creative, scientific or otherwise constructive expression. Aside from that, all legal matters regarding slander fall on the person who expressed it, since it's his decision.

Edited the post to change it to a bit more mild meaning.

No, since this forum allows people to post anonymously via proxies such as tor, and it's impossible to track them down, it falls on the forum to moderate it.
See the updated OP, it's said possible slander since we don't have the time to check facts nor the resources that allow access to some info. If the forum was to be asked to remove slander by the court descision or a police order, it would although that's not my concern. Also, it's forum policy, not mine. Can't provide a source and that's a thing I've been constantly reminding the staff of.

Just for possible legal concerns, I've edited out that part.


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Spoetnik
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September 26, 2014, 11:30:45 PM
 #16

This is precisely how i thought the rules were all along.
The clarification is a good idea to prevent you mods from getting spammed with reports.

This place is often used as a childish game of tug of war so any method of attack is used.
Such as attacking peoples Trust Rating here.
I've had plenty of people make up fake trades and leave me negative trust saying i stole coins from them.
This illustrates the childish and vindictive and extremely deceitful and CHILDISH behavior that goes on here.

If the rules were tighter it would catch more innocent people up in the net than actually help i think.. seems like a good balance in my opinion.

There is not a lot of free speech left on the internet these days so i ask people to bear that in mind.

Being able to tell some guy who screwed something up that he is a fucking idiot and laugh in his face is a privilege these days LOL
lots of kids won't have any clue that rules *used to be pretty lax across the web long ago and this Politically-Correct uptight bs is newer.
this newer generation of kids seem to think there should be a new Police force created.. one for Internet Trolling
..the ULTIMATE crime !

and... the ultimate way to screw someone over too !
make up some crap about a guy accuse him of trolling and get him banned.. then skuttle of laughing you fucked someone over schoolyard style LOL

90% of the internet Kiddiots seem to think Trolling is some phrase spoken and typed out on a web site that YOU DO NOT APPROVE OF..
It means something else entirely.. Google it Wink

FUD first & ask questions later™
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September 29, 2014, 08:17:01 AM
 #17

After receiving a lot of PMs about this subject, seeing a lot of reports of this kind and after one of the global mods PMed me with suggestions regarding this topic, I thought that I should cover it:

Possible (or real, not for me to judge) FUD, accusations or statements are not moderated.

Moderators don't moderate for truth. However, trolling isn't allowed. If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited. However, such cases should be thoroughly documented in the report (There are tons of reports that just say "trolling", but moderators don't have time to look through each user's post).

Possible (since we don't have the time or resources to check) insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content. However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

Scams aren't moderated either due to the fact that's it's extremely hard to make an unbiased decision on a limited amount of evidence and time. Moderators don't have time to be investigators.

Legal note: This is forum policy, not mine.


How will this be enforceable?
The sheer number of FUD and drama merchants around these parts will probably drown mods in reports.
Further, the following two sentences imply mods will have enormous arbitrary leeway in enforcements.

• If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited.
• insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic.

Despite your protestations, @mprep, mods will have to become even more involved to be able to deliver learned judgements.
Opinions will be formed, and decisions will be shaped by these opinions. Individual subjectivity will determine the fate of alleged wrongdoers.

At the risk of being labelled as just another serial contrarian, this is just another knee jerk reaction from forum mods and administrators that once again ignores the root of the problem.
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September 29, 2014, 02:20:01 PM
 #18

How will this be enforceable?
The sheer number of FUD and drama merchants around these parts will probably drown mods in reports.
Further, the following two sentences imply mods will have enormous arbitrary leeway in enforcements.

• If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited.
• insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic.

Despite your protestations, @mprep, mods will have to become even more involved to be able to deliver learned judgements.
Opinions will be formed, and decisions will be shaped by these opinions. Individual subjectivity will determine the fate of alleged wrongdoers.

At the risk of being labelled as just another serial contrarian, this is just another knee jerk reaction from forum mods and administrators that once again ignores the root of the problem.

Quote
How will this be enforceable?

By constant moderation.

Quote
Further, the following two sentences imply mods will have enormous arbitrary leeway in enforcements.

• If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited.
• insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic.
The first one is quite clear - false nonsense would be information that disobeys common logic like claiming that "Xcoin didn't make me breakfast" or "Xcoin has attacked my house" when it's digital.

The second one explains that such posts like "this is crap" will be deleted, but posts like "this is crap. the dev didn't deliver on this promise which he stated <insert link here>" won't be.

Quote
Despite your protestations, @mprep, mods will have to become even more involved to be able to deliver learned judgements.
Opinions will be formed, and decisions will be shaped by these opinions. Individual subjectivity will determine the fate of alleged wrongdoers.

Slight bias will always affect any action a person does that isn't based on clear rule set (the "2+2=4" type). The forum is just trying to decrease it to a minimum.

Quote
At the risk of being labeled as just another serial contrarian, this is just another knee jerk reaction from forum mods and administrators that once again ignores the root of the problem.

I'm not the one who makes the rules. In fact, this policy existed for quite a long time. The forum is based on freedom (mostly of speech) and tries to stick to it while remaining functional to those who want their opinions heard.


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October 02, 2014, 05:05:16 PM
 #19

I for one would like to thank whom-ever moderated my morning pains fairly today, considering I swear..

Swearing is only offensive (in my opinion) when used aggressively, I mean, I did walk through a busy wall street one day with an ex, and I thought my language was bad.. there are times when it's needed, and the best way in my opinion, to deal with swearing, is see who kiss's n makes up after a moment of madness..

But thank you bitcointalk for correcting the trolls abuse of the trust button and I hope ya get it together and clear out the scammers too, so that those who mine bitcoin on their own can hopefully use them one day knowing that trust is not as much required as it seems to be today.. I have faith that this site can do more than allow these people to blacken the name of the best start up currency of them all, and the one site that helped kick it off, dont be burnt by scammers.. just ban them..

But thanking you again.


Moderators don't have time to be investigators.



A kin dae that, giez a joab lol..?

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October 03, 2014, 08:19:14 AM
 #20

mprep: thank you for implementing these much needed improvements. These rules will help make BTCTalk a much more peaceful place in the future.

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